General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

Sorry. The MDC refer's to Randi's "Million Dollar Challenge". It's kind of a big deal around these parts, and I apologize for not spelling it out for you.

ahh...so its a derail.

I see. very good.

 

[mortimer]

we are a world of laws. and international institutions that create, interpret, and impose these laws. we are this way because without such institutions, the world is much more chaotic.

in our world, if the United Nations, and European Union, and the United States, ALL say that a nation's status as being the legal Occupier of a territory has not ended due to reason X, Y, and Z..its only prudent that we respect such rulings and official positions. if we don't, then we're back in 1914.

would you prefer it any other way?

You may have noticed, although likely not, that I have never claimed Gaza was not occupied. I have merely pointed out that The Fool's definition of occupation, until he clarified it, was bollocks.

For the record, I believe that there is no black and white here, and that Israel's occupation of Gaza is further toward the "unoccupied" end of the spectrum. But an argument could be made that Israel still occupies Gaza.

And I also believe that Israel needs to declare what it believes it's borders should be, and enforce those borders wrt both Palestinians and the settlers.

 

[mortimer]

ahh...so its a derail.

I see. very good.

You can add "derail" to the list of terms you have absolutely no clue of their meaning, like "Godwin" and "strawman". Really, they are not difficult concepts.

 

[Thunder]

You can add "derail" to the list of terms you have absolutely no clue of their meaning, like "Godwin" and "strawman". Really, they are not difficult concepts.

really?

 

[Thunder]

I have merely pointed out that The Fool's definition of occupation, until he clarified it, was bollocks.

cute.

For the record, I believe that there is no black and white here, and that Israel's occupation of Gaza is further toward the "unoccupied" end of the spectrum.

shocker.

I didn't know that the legal status of "Occupation", has a spectrum. Is that like being sorta/kinda/almost pregnant?

 

[mortimer]

really?

Yes, really. Look up the terms, and shoot for comprehension.

 

[mortimer]

cute.

How so?

shocker.

I didn't know that the legal status of "Occupation", has a spectrum. Is that like being sorta/kinda/almost pregnant?

So you believe it is a black or white issue. That's fine. I don't consider Israel's occupation of Gaza to be on the same level as, say, Germany's occupation of Poland during WWII. You may feel differently, and again, that's fine.

 

[Thunder]

So you believe it is a black or white issue. That's fine.

either you are occupied..or you are not.

either a nation has sovereignty over your territory...or they don't.

this is not an issue of "black or white". its an issue of legal or illegal.

The United States has sovereignty over Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This is why we have the right to mass troops and fly over there.

Israel is the Occupying Power over the Gaza Strip. This is why they have fly-over rights, and the right to send in troops, build fences, etc etc.

Got it now?

....I thought not.

 

[mortimer]

either you are occupied..or you are not.

either a nation has sovereignty over your territory...or they don't.

this is not an issue of "black or white". its an issue of legal or illegal.

The United States has sovereignty over Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This is why we have the right to mass troops and fly over there.

Israel is the Occupying Power over the Gaza Strip. This is why they have fly-over rights, and the right to send in troops, build fences, etc etc.

Got it now?

....I thought not.

I got it. You think occupation is a black and white issue. That Israel's occupation of Gaza is exactly the same as Germany's occupation of Poland during WWII, legally speaking. That's fine. I disagree.

 

[ThunderChunky]

You think whoever shot him paused after every shot to check for vital signs? Most likely he rattled off about 10 shots in 1.5 seconds. And at any rate, executions are typically one shot to the back of the head. It makes far less sense as an execution than it does as a result of close quarters combat.

No, it makes most sense that he was not killed by someone acting in self defense. Here's what the UN panel report says (slightly different than the previous news report).

"Furkan Doğan, a 19-year-old with dual Turkish and United States citizenship, was on the central area of the top deck filming with a small video camera when he was first hit with live fire. It appears that he was lying on the deck in a conscious, or semi-conscious, state for some time. In total Furkan received five bullet wounds, to the face, head, back thorax, left leg and foot. All of the entry wounds were on the back of his body, except for the face wound which entered to the right of his nose. According to forensic analysis, tattooing around the wound in his face indicates that the shot was delivered at point blank range. Furthermore, the trajectory of the wound, from bottom to top, together with a vital abrasion to the left shoulder that could be consistent with the bullet exit point, is compatible with the shot being received while he was lying on the ground on his back. The other wounds were not the result of firing in contact, near contact or close range, but it is not otherwise possible to determine the exact firing range. The wounds to the leg and foot were most likely received in a standing position."

 

[Thunder]

That Israel's occupation of Gaza is exactly the same as Germany's occupation of Poland during WWII, legally speaking. That's fine. I disagree.

I don't consider Israel's occupation of Gaza to be on the same level as, say, Germany's occupation of Poland during WWII.

did I say that?

ever? why do you keep mentioning that? is WW2 the only time a nation was occupied???

no, I did not say that. I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth, Mortimer.

oh...and nice Godwin.

 

[Cleon]

I note, without comment, that the IDF has made "wholesale arrests," detaining some 20 people.http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...sence-following-itamar-terror-attack-1.349017 They have no suspects.

 

[Thunder]

I note, without comment, that the IDF has made "wholesale arrests," detaining some 20 people. They have no suspects.

shocker

 

[Giz]

Some people react to the murder of Israeli children with whataboutery and blaming the victims

shocker

 

[WildCat]

No, it makes most sense that he was not killed by someone acting in self defense. Here's what the UN panel report says (slightly different than the previous news report).

"Furkan Doğan, a 19-year-old with dual Turkish and United States citizenship, was on the central area of the top deck filming with a small video camera when he was first hit with live fire. It appears that he was lying on the deck in a conscious, or semi-conscious, state for some time. In total Furkan received five bullet wounds, to the face, head, back thorax, left leg and foot. All of the entry wounds were on the back of his body, except for the face wound which entered to the right of his nose. According to forensic analysis, tattooing around the wound in his face indicates that the shot was delivered at point blank range. Furthermore, the trajectory of the wound, from bottom to top, together with a vital abrasion to the left shoulder that could be consistent with the bullet exit point, is compatible with the shot being received while he was lying on the ground on his back. The other wounds were not the result of firing in contact, near contact or close range, but it is not otherwise possible to determine the exact firing range. The wounds to the leg and foot were most likely received in a standing position."

And? This proves "execution" how?

Nobody disputes people were shot you know.

 

[Skeptic]

Actually, depending upon how you define it, your country regularly flies over the UK and has troops stationed here pretty much at all times.

You don't have ships in our waters as far as I know, but I can't imagine it would be hard to.

END THE EVIL US OCCUPATION OF BRITAIN!

Oh wait, the USA isn't Jewish. Nevermind.

 

[Skeptic]

Thank you for clarifying. So a country's occupation of a territory is fully dependent on a third party declaring it so?

Damn, so that's the secret ingredient that applies only to the Jewish state.

 

[The Fool]

Thank you for clarifying. So a country's occupation of a territory is fully dependent on a third party declaring it so? In other words, Israel can not "unoccupy" Gaza until the UN says so, correct?

sorry, this is getting more and more bizzare...

the answer to the above is No....so your "in other words" is irrelevant.


look, do you a deal when you can grasp concepts like effective control.....and the ability to read my posts and not see something else completely.....we may continue. Until themn I am simply assuming you are being deliberately silly.


and to "skeptic" if you really have nothing to offer besides uppercased rants and the usual suggestions of anti-semitism....maybe you could clear off?

 

[The Fool]

actually....on reflection

this thread is, has been....and I suspect always will be like trying to explain music to fish...you will all please excuse my permanent future absence from this thread.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Israel has effective control of Gaza.....I have laboriously explained why. I am amazed you can't follow the bouncing ball.

No, you have claimed that Israel occupies Gaza but you can't find a single soldier on Gazas soil.