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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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the answer to the above is No....so your "in other words" is irrelevant.
Then perhaps you can explain what else Israel can do, unilaterally, to end the "occupation" of Gaza, besides remove all troops and civilians from the territory.
look, do you a deal when you can grasp concepts like effective control.....
What?
and the ability to read my posts and not see something else completely.....we may continue. Until themn I am simply assuming you are being deliberately silly.
I can only go by what you actually post, unless you are expecting me and others to harbor the ability to read your mind.
 
did I say that?

ever? why do you keep mentioning that? is WW2 the only time a nation was occupied???

no, I did not say that. I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth, Mortimer.

oh...and nice Godwin.
Again, go look up what a Godwin is. Its really not that complex.

And no, WW2 is not the only time a nation was occupied. But you seem to be under the impression that all occupations are the same, legally. So, legally, the Israeli occupation of Gaza is the same as the German occupation of Poland during WW2, unless you want to admit there are different levels of occupation.
 
Does Parky still think "Godwin" is a logical fallacy and not a sociological observation?
 
Does Parky still think "Godwin" is a logical fallacy and not a sociological observation?

Parky once said that he used to be a 9/11 truther, but that's not true.

He's still a truther, he just doesn't believe 9/11 was an inside job anymore.
 
It's refreshing to see a Palestinian leader speaking so clearly against these murders:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041875,00.html

"This was a disgraceful act, inhuman and immoral," Abbas said in Arabic comments translated into Hebrew by the interviewer.


"I'm not capable of seeing a four-month-old baby girl murdered, or a woman slaughtered," he said. "Any person who has a sense of humanity would be pained and driven to tears by such sights."

I wish I could say the same about some of the forum members here.
 
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Thank you for clarifying. So a country's occupation of a territory is fully dependent on a third party declaring it so? In other words, Israel can not "unoccupy" Gaza until the UN says so, correct?

Though TF disagrees, I agree. Or, at least, some international body with authority would have to agree.

ETA: depending on how your comment is understood. Israel doesn't need the UN's permission to end the occupation, it needs recognition that it has done everything necessary.

So you believe it is a black or white issue. That's fine. I don't consider Israel's occupation of Gaza to be on the same level as, say, Germany's occupation of Poland during WWII. You may feel differently, and again, that's fine.

Again, not addressed to me. But I agree that occupations are different. Some of them are good and some of them are bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations
Occupation of Japan, by the United States, 1945–1951

A damn lot better than leaving them to fend for themselves at the end of the war.

For the record, I believe that there is no black and white here, and that Israel's occupation of Gaza is further toward the "unoccupied" end of the spectrum. But an argument could be made that Israel still occupies Gaza.

Then perhaps you can explain what else Israel can do, unilaterally, to end the "occupation" of Gaza, besides remove all troops and civilians from the territory.

I'm not sure your position is consistent here. The earlier responses didn't lead me to suspect you would be one of the 'boots on the ground' crowd.

I've come up with an analogy. The intent is to illustrate that, once you get yourself into some situations, there are particular things you have to do to get yourself out.

Consider marriage -- Yes, Wildcat, I know marriage isn't occupation. People agree to get married, for one thing.

Marriage can be good, it can be bad. But the main thing is that there is a legally recognised procedure for ending a marriage.

Here's some UK advice:
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/family_parent/family/ending_a_marriage.htm#judicial_separation

You can divorce even if your partner doesn't want to divorce. But you can't simply declare the marriage is over. For one thing, you wouldn't be allowed to re-marry until your first marriage is formally over.

Living apart is not sufficient for a marriage to be officially over. If you have been seperated for more than 5 years, a court will, very likely, grant a divorce even without the agreement of your partner. But the seperation on its own isn't a divorce. You might argue that you are 'futher towards the "not married" end of the spectrum' -- but if you marry without a formal end to the first marriage you could get in trouble.

Living together doesn't mean you are married. Living apart doesn't mean you are divorced.

In short: marriage isn't about booties on beds. Just like occupations are NOT about boots on the ground.

America still has troops in Iraq. Occupation over.
America still has troops in Japan. Occupation over.
America still has troops in Germany. Occupation over. From the wiki page:
"Berlin remained under formal military occupation until September 12, 1990 when the Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany was signed."

There are particular things you have to do to end an occupation. Javier Solana said:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3135368,00.html

YNET said:
Only an agreement between Israel and the Palestinians regarding the control over the land, air and sea passages in Gaza will permit the international community to acknowledge the end of Israel’s occupation in Gaza, Javier Solana, the EU High Representative for EU Common Foreign and Security, said Tuesday during a meeting with Meretz-Yahad Party leader Yossi Beilin in Jerusalem.

The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jan/25/israelandthepalestinians.egypt

Like the BBC, they fail to find (or have found and fail to list -- you choose) any body in the international community who agrees with Israel:

Guardian said:
Israeli officials have often spoken of their intent to separate themselves completely from the Gaza Strip, which Israel captured and occupied in 1967. In 2005 Israel withdrew its settlers and soldiers but the international community still regards Gaza as occupied territory because Israel has effective control over the Palestinians there. It controls the population register as well as Gaza's sea space and air space, prevents large-scale use of the harbour and any use of Gaza's one airport, conducts frequent military operations in Gaza and controls all crossings into Israel.

Israel is also responsible for delivering electricity, water and medicine to Gaza.

Not all those things will change automatically with the end of an occupation. But Israel got these responsibilities via its occupation of Gaza. And they are responsibilities. For instance: Israel cannot withhold electricity if the Palestinians don't pay their bills, or if they launch rockets.

Removing troops isn't sufficient. That is why the CIA says:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

CIA said:
West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation; Israel removed settlers and military personnel from the Gaza Strip in August 2005.
 
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In short: marriage isn't about booties on beds. Just like occupations are NOT about boots on the ground.

yes they are.

It's funny watching the Hamas boosters/Israel bashers tie themselves into knots to come up with special definitions of "occupation" that will allow them to feign victimhood vs Israel on the palestinians behalf.

It's like watching the pseudo-intellectual peasant in Monty Pythons Holy Grail crying "Help, help! I'm being repressed"... only there's no one there.
 
yes they are.

It's funny watching the Hamas boosters/Israel bashers tie themselves into knots to come up with special definitions of "occupation" that will allow them to feign victimhood vs Israel on the palestinians behalf.

It's like watching the pseudo-intellectual peasant in Monty Pythons Holy Grail crying "Help, help! I'm being repressed"... only there's no one there.

What I find funny is watching people pretend that quoting the CIA and EU representatives is tying oneself up in knots.

And, at the same time, they pretend the game is to get everyone to say 'occupation' because 'occupation' is a dirty word which would smear Israel.

This is wrong on two counts:
First: the overwhelming majority (and an influential majority, which includes the EU and USA) are already saying 'occupation'.

Second: there is nothing intrinsically bad about 'occupation'. The US occupation of Japan was good, as far as I can tell. The occupation of Germany by the allies was good, as far as I can tell.

Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is bad not because it is an occupation, but because of the way Israel has gone about it.

But, since you are a 'boots on the ground' member... Kindly support your claim. Wildcat tried by quoting a definition, but he couldn't point to the bit which said 'boots on the ground'.
 
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I'll be sure to provide bikerdruid and thunder's justification statements to whoever decides to kill some illegal settlers in Hawaii
 
So the CIA team in charge of finding Bin Laden and Iraqi WMDs is now in charge of rewriting definitions?

No. The claim is that the CIA is better at understanding definitions than you are. Same goes for Solana, the EU's representative at the time he commented. (Or their advisors/etc).
 
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It's refreshing to see a Palestinian leader speaking so clearly against these murders:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4041875,00.html



I wish I could say the same about some of the forum members here.

Indeed. He didn't even say anything about how they had it coming for "putting themselves in the line of fire". How could he ignore such obvious truths? Must be a zionist collaborator or something.

By the way -- while someone claiming to be from Al Aksa's brigades called a newspaper and declared it's their responsibility, the official spokesmen for that organization deny any involvement.
 
But choosing to live in occupied territory, in settlements possibly built on stolen land, is asking for trouble. And even if you live in peace your whole life there, you are still a co-conspirator in a crime.

What if the settlement isn't built on stolen land?
 
however, living in Israel proper, is not illegal under any international law, and being a victim of a terror attack in Israel proper can ONLY be blamed on the perpetrators, both morally and legally.



good to have some more common sense on this issue. thanks man.

It's sort of a pity that the discussion is set in the Israel / Palestine context, as moral discussions are complex enough without factionalism getting involved. We all have our attitudes about that conflict and it's hard to be objective about the moral issue when we each bring a bag of prejudices, however major or minor, to the debate.
For me, a parent is always responsible for the welfare of children (as are we all, but to varying degrees). Of course, over-protectiveness is bad, too, but (to give an example from a different context), I wince when I see a mother on a bicycle, in heavy traffic, with a toddler strapped onto a back seat. Could the need to do that be avoided?
Maybe that's because I think cyclists are in danger in traffic and rely on manoeuverability to stay safe, which is lost if there's a kid on the back. Presumably the mother doesn't agree- but if that kid gets hurt, does it make any difference to either the kid or the mother's responsibility whether she hit a pothole (morally neutral) or she was blindsided by a truck driver turning left? (UK)

The situation with settlements seems similar, but with added political overtones. Clearly, establishing residence is a political move. Dragging kids into that process is a political move. But why would anyone think raising kids in an area gives those kids some claim on the land, if it gave no such claim to the kids who were there last year? Why would anyone think this is an appropriate way to treat any children?

Is this the same religious mindset that says it's OK to cut kids' foreskins off because that's what god wants? Is that the morality we're dealing with?

I don't know. It all seems bloody pointless and deeply silly to me.
 
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