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Merged Their Return

Jono74 said:
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There is utterly no evidence, not what I'd call evidence anyway, and I reckon it all comes down believing, or not, a few unusual observations by some very reliable people. Some people lie, some are mistaken, some have no explanation. I personally like to keep them as ufo's - cool solid flying things, not identify them as spaceships or whatever - I reckon thats a bit of a leap.
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If there is 'utterly no evidence' that you'd call evidence, then what is there to believe?

I also observe here that the most reliable type sightings go ignored.
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Such as?

Anyway, it comes down to just believing someone, unless you see something yourself, and I do believe some of these people.
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Without evidence, this just sounds like wishful thinking - what, exactly, do you believe, and why?
 
Jono74 said:
OK - I havent read the entire thread, so sorry in advance if I recover points etc. (Hey - its huge, and didnt really appeal to me, but I keep an eye on recent posts, and did the OP and first few pages.)
I disagree with what I perceive as the assumption that there is a "they, that has descended before". But I honestly dont know if you believe that, or are just arguing from there. Not to worry.
I think of the natives/explorers analogy. Natives find a log washed up that looks a bit like one of their canoes, but clearly not one of theirs. They assume its from the god people, and set about trying to get them to come to their islands. At this point, they dont even know for sure the god people exist or not. They pray, sacrifice, hold games, look at chicken entrails, sacrifice virgins etc. Clearly they are not having any luck.
One day a ships show up on the horizon, and not due to the natives' efforts. They natives had better hope that those ship people are friendly and have better ethics and value systems than perhaps their own.
Thats how I see it I guess.
Im more interested in strange things seen by reliable people.
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I make no 'assumption' that they were once here... That's the conclusion I reached, after looking around, and seeing sights like Puma Punku that contain evidence of an advanced technology at work, that is now absent.

There was someone here, in our ancient past, that had techniques of working stone that surpass even today's modern stone masonry tools.

The objects I saw, while they weren't making stone carving look easy, performed feats beyond the ability of our most advanced fighters.

I find evidence that they existed here, in the past, but now they exist in our heavens.
 
bruto said:
Refusing to accept responsibility for your failure to convince is a rather common event in the unraveling of crackpots. Flat earthers and time-cubists and other possessors of perpetual motion, the secrets of the universe or the alphabet of the corn gods end up standing alone on their respective dungheaps cursing the blind and stupid for failing to get it.

Of course you might well be the only one in the world who holds the truth. Poor you if that's so. Quixotism has a certain romantic air, but more to the don than to those who get the joke. The fact remains that if you can't convince anyone of your viewpoint, you'll never get anywhere beyond where you are now. You can blame that failure on anyone or anything you want, but in the end it's yours to own.
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I am not responsible for your willful ignorance.
 
dlorde said:
If there is 'utterly no evidence' that you'd call evidence, then what is there to believe?

Hope this works. Well, as I said above, I believe, for me anyway, that the real issue is whether or not to believe observations made by reliable people. As I said, I do believe some, at face value. I would certainly not call that evidence, and I really dont want to get into the evidence debate. I dont reckon there is any. I wouldnt call radar contact or even photographic as evidence. Many differ there. What I find difficult to discount are unusual observations by reliable, sober people.

Such as?

Well, I think you have me there. I have seen a lot of editorialised and massaged stuff on the other thread. I only take notice of first hand accounts, and not woo tube or ufo/et/blah blah site stuff. I could maybe post a link for peoples opinion...?

Without evidence, this just sounds like wishful thinking - what, exactly, do you believe, and why?
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Quite correct. As I said earlier and to qualify, ufo's are my pet woo. I DO like the mystery. And I do believe some people accounts, and that they are accurate, and objective. Very few though.
And one can rightly say - well, what about reliable pixie accounts? Reliable ghost ones, etc? Double standard...? yeah. It seems to me military/police/pilot etc type people report aerial phenomena way more than for eg ghosty type things.
Contemporary equivalent of religious visions, pixies etc, triggered by scifi movies, books?
I dunno, but I hope to learn or add somehow to my views/beliefs here.
 
Jono74 said:
Yeah - I'm well aware of them. Fascinating insight they provide as to how religions start too!
Thanks for the link, btw. Skeptoid does a really good overview too.
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And yesterday's gods dropped manta from heaven...

That said, another thought just occurred to me, what if they arrived UNINVITED...?

I mean that would make them a pretty rude guests don't you think?

What if they've just been waiting on our front stoop, for us to open the door.

I think we'd better find someway of inviting them down, before they come through an unopened door...
 
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dlorde - obviously, I have a bit to learn about the quote feature. Was trying to multiquote :confused:

ETA: KoTA; will reply soon as I get home from work.
 
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bruto said:
Everyone but you is responsible for your failure. Go on thinking that if it brings you happiness, but the one thing it will not bring is success.
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I've reached my finding, after MY review of the evidence presented here and in other threads, that 'they exist in our heavens'.

It is NOT my failure that you ignore, dismiss, or fail to appreciate EVERY piece of evidence presented to you...

Ignorance, especially willful, makes me sad.
 
Hi KoTA

King of the Americas said:
I've reached my finding, after MY review of the evidence presented here and in other threads, that 'they exist in our heavens'.

It is NOT my failure that you ignore, dismiss, or fail to appreciate EVERY piece of evidence presented to you...

Ignorance, especially willful, makes me sad.
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I hate to keep referring to Skeptoid, but Brian did a pretty good episode on Pumapunku. Have you listened to/read it? Very interesting. No doubt you have a deeper knowledge, and I dont mean that in a sarcastic way. He presented facts, refs, and the observation that the larger stones have been consistantly exaggerated in size and hardness.

People back then were not just dumber versions of ourselves. They just lived under different circumstances, and had skills that are no longer needed today. And spare time we havent got today either. Many stellae(? those big tall post things) are still sitting in egypt, half carved out of rock, and abandoned due to cracks and weaknesses. No mystery. Just time and hard work.

There is a great youtube vid of a guy who is building a full sized stonehenge using nothing but himself, wood, and stones. It sounds unbelievable, but looks so simple when he shows how its done.
Other users can probably post a link - I've forgotten where.

ETA:No I havent! Its here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK1Rzch89Dw
 
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Jono74 said:
I hate to keep referring to Skeptoid, but Brian did a pretty good episode on Pumapunku. Have you listened to/read it? Very interesting. No doubt you have a deeper knowledge, and I dont mean that in a sarcastic way. He presented facts, refs, and the observation that the larger stones have been consistantly exaggerated in size and hardness.

People back then were not just dumber versions of ourselves. They just lived under different circumstances, and had skills that are no longer needed today. And spare time we havent got today either. Many stellae(? those big tall post things) are still sitting in egypt, half carved out of rock, and abandoned due to cracks and weaknesses. No mystery. Just time and hard work.

There is a great youtube vid of a guy who is building a full sized stonehenge using nothing but himself, wood, and stones. It sounds unbelievable, but looks so simple when he shows how its done.
Other users can probably post a link - I've forgotten where.
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See this stone (http://www.lugaluda.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/puma-punku.jpeg).

The walls of an ancient building were made of hundreds of these that interlocked.

This is a blueprint version of the stone, that you'd require to reproduce these (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4526966166_0fbefbb9ca_z.jpg).

I spent several months last year carving 9 symbols onto a piece of granite, with a carbide tipped chisel and diamond tipped drumel tools. It took me months to achieve a mere 1/4 of an inch deep. Granted I am only an amateur stone worker, I have access to materials MUCH harder than copper and bronze alloys.

I would argue that those cuts represent the work of an advanced technology, now lost, gone, and or unknown.

Moreover, I would argue that such works would be IMPOSSIBLE without a written language, precise measuring tools, and better stone removal techniques than we now have today.

These stones are diorite, similar to granite in hardness.

It would be impossible to mass produce these stones with bronze or copper chisels.

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Do you have a link to this skeptiod video?

I have seen videos of people using two fulcrums and a counterweight to move massive stones. I've seen a video of a man moving a rectangular pillar that weighed several hundred pounds, with one hand...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK1Rzch89Dw&feature=related

Carving inner square corners into hard stone, on the other hand, is a different task altogether.
 
Puma Punku

King of the Americas said:
See this stone (http://www.lugaluda.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/puma-punku.jpeg).

The walls of an ancient building were made of hundreds of these that interlocked.

This is a blueprint version of the stone, that you'd require to reproduce these (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4526966166_0fbefbb9ca_z.jpg).

I spent several months last year carving 9 symbols onto a piece of granite, with a carbide tipped chisel and diamond tipped drumel tools. It took me months to achieve a mere 1/4 of an inch deep. Granted I am only an amateur stone worker, I have access to materials MUCH harder than copper and bronze alloys.

I would argue that those cuts represent the work of an advanced technology, now lost, gone, and or unknown.

Moreover, I would argue that such works would be IMPOSSIBLE without a written language, precise measuring tools, and better stone removal techniques than we now have today.

These stones are diorite, similar to granite in hardness.

It would be impossible to mass produce these stones with bronze or copper chisels.

---

Do you have a link to this skeptiod video?

I have seen videos of people using two fulcrums and a counterweight to move massive stones. I've seen a video of a man moving a rectangular pillar that weighed several hundred pounds, with one hand...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK1Rzch89Dw&feature=related

Carving inner square corners into hard stone, on the other hand, is a different task altogether.
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Yes - I added the link an above edit. Looks like same one as you - Wally Wallington is the mans name. This vid is all I know of him. I ASSUME its true - ie stone not polystyrene - pretty lazy eh?


The following is a quote from the Skeptoid Podcast about it, which is also referenced, and can be found here: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4202

"Petrographic and chemical analyses are relatively trivial to carry out, and even allowed us to determine exactly where the rocks were quarried. Pumapunku's large blocks are a common red sandstone that was quarried about 10 kilometers away. Many of the smaller stones, including the most ornamental and some of the facing stones, are of igneous andesite and came from a quarry on the shore of Lake Titicaca, about 90 kilometers away."

"The Tiwanaku did magnificent work, but by no means was it inexplicably superior to what can be found throughout the ancient world. It is unnecessary to invoke aliens to explain the structures."
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Sounds like a hell of a task you have set yourself with the carving. Good stuff. The podcast is well worth a read/listen, if you havent already.
Thanks for the link KotA, promise I'll look, but I'm extremely skeptical of anything other than people and hard work being responsible.
 
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King of the Americas said:
That's what the man told me.

And given the nature of our relationship I was in no position to question him.
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This is the root of the problem.

You have a tendency to accept things told to you or read by you at face value with little critical analysis, and then argue the point here as though the story you've heard or read is "true fact".

You then accuse anyone who disagrees with your "facts" as being ignorant.
 
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