Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

[BeAChooser]

Wisconsin law prohibits teacher strikes.

Which is why the teachers who have all called in sick should be fired.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Repubs are framing it as all economics implying irresponsible greedy union workers. At issue are the components in the bill which severely limit the right to negotiate:

According to the Mother Jones article cited previously:

[The bill] would require most public workers to pay half their pension costs — typically 5.8% of pay for state workers — and at least 12% of their health care costs. It applies to most state and local employees but does not apply to police, firefighters and state troopers, who would continue to bargain for their benefits.

Except for police, firefighters and troopers, raises would be limited to inflation unless a bigger increase was approved in a referendum. The non-law enforcement unions would lose their rights to bargain over anything but wages, would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact and would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks.

(Maybe that's already been quoted in the thread, but if it has it needs repeating.)

 

[BeAChooser]

It's not an official strike (supported by the union)

Well, not on paper at least.

And the DNC is not involved in these protests either ... it's a local thing. wink wink wink.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Which is why the teachers who have all called in sick should be fired.

This isn't Reagan and the air traffic controllers. The tactic of firing striking workers is very rarely so easily done. Are you connected to an air traffic controller?

Every parent in the state is connected to a teacher if their kids are in school. There are teachers in most neighborhoods in the state. There are not air traffic controllers in every neighborhood.

If you fire thousands of teachers, it affects a large segment of the population, not just the people with an airline ticket at the moment. The public will not support firing all the striking teachers. The public is not angry at the teachers.

The conservatives have a mistaken idea of what the 'public mandate' was that elected them and just how much political capital they actually have. Here's my message to them: "Keep it up guys. We'll beat you in 2012 by a landslide. And if you think you are going to get away with what Texas did with the redistricting, you will see an enormous backlash, I assure you."

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

And the DNC is not involved in these protests either ... it's a local thing. wink wink wink.

More Repub framing.

Why shouldn't the DNC and Obama and every Democrat in the country weigh in on this? Since when is it unethical for the DNC to support unions against union busting legislation aimed selectively at unions that support Democratic candidates on average?

 

[BeAChooser]

The Repubs are framing it as all economics implying irresponsible greedy union workers.

Well, Kim Hoffman certainly seems a little greedy.

And the fact is that even with the proposed cuts, Wisconsin teachers will still earn more than their peers in most other states, far more than what private sector teachers earn, and more than what most private sector professionals earn. So yes, it does look like union green, SG.

Here, some reading ...

http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol11No3/Niederjohn11.3.pdf

And by the way ... how good a job have Wisconsin teachers been doing? Especially when it comes to all those minorities that so heavily support the democratic party?

Well ... according to this ...

http://www.all4ed.org/files/Wisconsin_wc.pdf

the 4-year graduation rate for blacks is only 50%. It's only 54% for hispanics. And only 55% for native Americans. It looks to me like the democrat controlled and run school system has been failing the most loyal constituencies of the democratic party. And yet they keep on voting democrat. Are they Stuck On Stupid? Or perhaps in the last election they did learn? Afterall, a Republican governor was elected in one of the *formerly* most liberal states. And why was he elected? To rein in out of control government spending? Go figure.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, because it's either grossly overpay them or minimum wage.

And this isn't just about teachers. It's the lackeys working in the DMV, the corrupt cop who was fired years ago but still gets to keep his pension and health benefits, the workers who are getting raises despite the state being broke. Convicted felons getting cushy do-nothing government jobs because they're somebody's somebody.

Taxpayers are sick of this crap.

When a picture is worth 1,000 words:

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/union_pig.gif

Well, if democrats and greedy unions are in control, Wisconsin is but a few years away from becoming ... well ... California.

Governor Walker created this so-called budget crisis with his irresponsible spending, not the public sector employees.

Now he's trying to ram a "budget repair" bill through to break the unions to which he's ideologically opposed.

That this is conveniently overlooked is partisanship of the highest order.

 

[BeAChooser]

This isn't Reagan and the air traffic controllers. The tactic of firing striking workers is very rarely so easily done.

If private sector employees tried this sort of stunt they'd find themselves kicked to the street. Why should public sector employees be any different?

The public is not angry at the teachers.

Don't be so sure.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, not on paper at least.

And the DNC is not involved in these protests either ... it's a local thing. wink wink wink.

And?

Walker's behavior has implications that go beyond the borders of Wisconsin. He's on a slash and burn mission to destroy political enemies of the Republican Party.

Why shouldn't the DNC get involved?

 

[johnny karate]

If private sector employees tried this sort of stunt they'd find themselves kicked to the street. Why should public sector employees be any different?

Maybe because they're being targeted by an unscrupulous Republican governor looking to dismantle them with dirty politics?

Don't be so sure.

Yes, propaganda can be a very powerful tool.

 

[BeAChooser]

More Repub framing.

More truths that democrats like SG would like to hide.

Why shouldn't the DNC and Obama and every Democrat in the country weigh in on this?

And yet when millions of ordinary Americans weighed in, via something called the Tea Party, on what democrats were pushing in Washington, they were called extremists, racists and Nazis by democrats, the DNC and Obama ... and told effectively to *mind their own business*. Do I detect a bit of hypocrisy, SG?

So I think Walker's response to Obama's Campaign Organization helping the unions and protestors was perfect:

“We’re focused on balancing our budget, it would be wise for the president and others in Washington to focus on balancing their budget, which they’re a long way from doing.”

Afterall, Wisconsin's only worrying about billions in debt. Washington has trillions to worry about.

 

[Kaosium]

It's not an official strike (supported by the union), it's an illegal sick out.

It still works, what are we gonna do, put them in jail? Suspend them? Then who teaches the kids?

I bet when you were in school you're parents took an interest in your education. That doesn't happen so much today. Parental apathy and absenteeism are the big problems today, not unions. Heck, the unions were around 20, 30, 40 years ago, back when education was "good" (and they had even sweeter deals back then).

Well, certainly they did, but would that have declined more so in Madison than the rest of the country? They used to say Madison Public Schools were amongst the best in the nation, they don't say that anymore. There was no WEAC palace on Nob Hill back then, the teachers never struck. Hell, Dr. Richie made us poor little kids go to school no matter how much snow we got, we had all of 2.5 snow days in the 10.5 years I was in the Madison Public Schools, and that included the (then) record snowfall. Education was paramount, now they have other concerns.

I don't think he'll be able to break the union. Even if he gets this bill passed it doesn't apply to salaries.

Oh, I know, but cowing them a little might do some good as well. Sometimes it's the little things, the petty cruelties. My brother has two kids in the system, second and forth grade. You remember the best part of going back to school? Going to the store and getting your new binders and pencils and whatever silly little things were trendy at the time? I recall the girls all had these ridiculous lipbalm sticks by about sixth grade, they'd have half a dozen of them.

Did you know that parents aren't allowed to buy their kids their own school supplies anymore? They're given a list of things they have to buy as 'communal' which are doled out by teacher over the course of the year. All the binders, all the pencils, all the fun things everyone used to buy. They could have done it so they asked the parents who could to chip in a little extra to make sure the poorer kids had enough too, no one would have minded that, but for them to make you have to tell kids they can't have that binder with a unicorn, or whatever silly little things delight seven and nine year-old girls and make going back to school fun, is just arrogant.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm going to go ahead and post this again for the benefit of the willfully ignorant:

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

Walker came into office with a budget surplus of approximately $120 million.

Wisconsin now has a deficit of $137 million thanks to Walker's spending.

Walker is now trying to blame the unions (with the exception of those that supported his campaign) for this budget shortfall.

And the most shocking part? People are actually falling for this cheap political stunt.

 

[BeAChooser]

Did you know that parents aren't allowed to buy their kids their own school supplies anymore? They're given a list of things they have to buy as 'communal' which are doled out by teacher over the course of the year. All the binders, all the pencils, all the fun things everyone used to buy. They could have done it so they asked the parents who could to chip in a little extra to make sure the poorer kids had enough too, no one would have minded that, but for them to make you have to tell kids they can't have that binder with a unicorn, or whatever silly little things delight seven and nine year-old girls and make going back to school fun, is just arrogant.

And it's not like the public school system is starving for money.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/wp-content/uploads/andrew-coulson-cato-education-spending2.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/S4FFM1wejoI/AAAAAAAAM1I/UYq8cuRLlWA/s400/publicschools.jpg

 

[johnny karate]

And yet when millions of ordinary Americans weighed in, via something called the Tea Party, on what democrats were pushing in Washington, they were called extremists, racists and Nazis by democrats, the DNC and Obama ... and told effectively to *mind their own business*. Do I detect a bit of hypocrisy, SG?

The DNC and Obama called the Tea Party racists and Nazis?

Afterall, Wisconsin's only worrying about billions in debt. Washington has trillions to worry about.

They weren't worrying about it before Walker came into office. Primarily because before that, they weren't in debt.

It's the same old Republican playbook we've seen before:

- Run up a huge tab.

- Blame the Democrats.

 

[johnny karate]

And it's not like the public school system is starving for money.

It's not like the state of Wisconsin was starving for money either.

At least until they handed the purses strings to Governor Walker and a Republican-controlled legislature.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, if democrats and greedy unions are in control, Wisconsin is but a few years away from becoming ... well ... California.

So unions are greedy but the rich are deserving?

 

[johnny karate]

That's the message being sent by Governor Walker and the Republicans of Wisconsin, which is apparently being lapped up by certain denizens of this forum.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, Kim Hoffman certainly seems a little greedy.

And the fact is that even with the proposed cuts, Wisconsin teachers will still earn more than their peers in most other states, far more than what private sector teachers earn, and more than what most private sector professionals earn. So yes, it does look like union green, SG.

Here, some reading ...

http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol11No3/Niederjohn11.3.pdf

And by the way ... how good a job have Wisconsin teachers been doing? Especially when it comes to all those minorities that so heavily support the democratic party?

Well ... according to this ...

http://www.all4ed.org/files/Wisconsin_wc.pdf

the 4-year graduation rate for blacks is only 50%. It's only 54% for hispanics. And only 55% for native Americans. It looks to me like the democrat controlled and run school system has been failing the most loyal constituencies of the democratic party. And yet they keep on voting democrat. Are they Stuck On Stupid? Or perhaps in the last election they did learn? Afterall, a Republican governor was elected in one of the *formerly* most liberal states. And why was he elected? To rein in out of control government spending? Go figure.

You are echoing the framing. Try talking about the issues instead.

Why does the legislation take away the union's right to bargain?

 

[Kaosium]

More Repub framing.

Why shouldn't the DNC and Obama and every Democrat in the country weigh in on this? Since when is it unethical for the DNC to support unions against union busting legislation aimed selectively at unions that support Democratic candidates on average?

It doesn't sell well here. There's another group, known as 'Progressive Dane' that tried this stuff. Brought in money from all over the nation and even candidates and policy concerns. Wisconsin has a long Progressive history, we didn't much care for these outsiders setting the agenda. I don't think a politician from Chicago putting the 'Machine' to work in Wisconsin will go over very well with Badgers, who can be ornery when cornered. WI went for Obama in '08, elected a Pubbie Governor and replaced a respected Dem Senator in the last election. It might have repercussions in '12 to interfere...

Remember what Tip O'Neill used to say? "All politics is local?" Maybe this has nothing to do with any national agenda and has to do with a local concern and perhaps the Dems would be better off allowing new voices into the party and cutting the stranglehold WEAC has had on Wisconsin politics.

Or at least give them a kick in the crotch. That can be fun to do with bullies.