Protests in Wisconsin - Scott Walker

[I Am The Scum]

Walker has said he'll call the National Guard in against protests

He definitely did not say that.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

He definitely did not say that.

Shame on me for being taken in on that claim then. I apologize and retract that bit. This is a lot less interesting to me, in that regard, then.

 

[angrysoba]

After everyone was wondering whether Libya, Bahrain, Iran or Yemen would follow Tunisia and Egypt we now find it's Wisconsin!

Life is full of surprises!

 

[Checkmite]

The police cannot arrest state representatives just for not voting. And they certainly can't "round them up and force a vote". Come on guys, a little critical thinking is warranted here.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

The police cannot arrest state representatives just for not voting. And they certainly can't "round them up and force a vote". Come on guys, a little critical thinking is warranted here.

Well, that's kind of the point. While I now doubt the veracity of that claim thanks to IATS' link, I wouldn't ever really think it was going to happen. It would, however, be interesting (and somewhat frightening on some levels) if he tried. Get what I'm saying there? I wouldn't think that it would actually happen, but if it were to be attempted, that would mean that he thinks he has that kind of authority. Though at this point, I wonder if he intended to.

 

[Neally]

"Otherwise similar" means, "same job."

Ergo, Nurse v. Nurse, teacher v. teacher...etc.

I'm not so sure about that. Keefe's study admited, "Ideally, we would compare workers performing similar work in the public sector with the private sector," which is exactly what the USA Today study did. Keefe instead used

“human capital” or personal productive characteristics and labor market skills.

Whatever that is.

I'm putting more credibility with the USA Today analysis. Also note Keefe's study was done for the union backed Economic Policy Institute.

 

[leftysergeant]

For example, the federal government's 57,000 registered nurses — working for the Veterans Administration and elsewhere — were paid an average of $74,460 a year, $10,680 more than the average for private-sector nurses. Average federal salaries exceed average private-sector pay in 83% of comparable occupations.

So?

Also note that your link did not take BENEFITS into consideration.

That's one of the reasons that qualified people would be drawn to government service.

Now, get this straight right now. I know that you will, as a knee-jerk right-winger, have a problem digesting it, but government workers are not over-paid, even if they are, after years of abuse by the likes of the Shrub, Cheney and Rummy, over-worked, especially in VA hospitals.

Private sector nurses are getting ripped off so that useless maggots like Bill Frist can make bazillions a year.

That scum sucker Walker wants to break the unions and screw the workers so that he can give more tax breaks to the financial sector. I hope the National Guard has a problem aiming their rifles when they are told to round up the protestors.

 

[TraneWreck]

I'm not so sure about that. Keefe's study admited, "Ideally, we would compare workers performing similar work in the public sector with the private sector," which is exactly what the USA Today study did. Keefe instead usedWhatever that is.

You should really include the entire quote:

Ideally, we would compare workers performing similar
work in the public sector with the private sector, but this
is not always possible. There are too many critical occupations
in the public sector, for example, police, fire, and
corrections, without appropriate private-sector analogs.
Even private and public teaching is significantly different.
Public schools accept all students, while private schools
are sometimes highly selective and may exclude or remove
any poor performers, special needs, or disruptive students.
Consequently, comparing workers of similar “human capital”
or personal productive characteristics and labor market
skills is considered the best alternative, and well accepted
by labor economists. Analyses based on personal characteristics
comparisons capture most of the important and
salient attributes observed in the comparable work studies.

Limiting the data set gives a distorted picture, which is one of the many reasons (including the lack of controls) why the USA Today stuff isn't very useful.

The point about teachers was a good one. Just because the title is the same, that doesn't mean the labor is the same.

Consider, for example, the "nurse" that works for you general health care provider to the "nurse" that works for the Army in Afghanistan. Same title, VERY different jobs.

I'm putting more credibility with the USA Today analysis. Also note Keefe's study was done for the union backed Economic Policy Institute.

Haha, the one that didn't control for experience and education...

"Credibility" evidently means something very different in your world. That same sloppy technique is what leads people to conclude homeopathy works.

 

[BeAChooser]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=71gsnLfsbbM "Rhetoric vs. Reality: Liberal Protest of Gov. Walker's Budget Repair Plan"

Gee … what ever happened to that more civil debate that liberals were demanding just a month ago?

 

[BeAChooser]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showall

The Democratic National Committee's Organizing for America arm -- the remnant of the 2008 Obama campaign -- is playing an active role in organizing protests against Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's attempt to strip most public employees of collective bargaining rights.

… snip …

OfA Wisconsin's field efforts include filling buses and building turnout for the rallies this week in Madison, organizing 15 rapid response phone banks urging supporters to call their state legislators, and working on planning and producing rallies, a Democratic Party official in Washington said.

Gee, were those the rallies with all the signs calling Walker Hitler and a Nazi? Just wondering.

 

[casebro]

Things are tough all over, no reason the public sector should be insulated from the woes of the economy. Heck, the states are going bankrupt yet can't even lay off workers. Hey, if the state has taken a hit on taxes due to the economy, I see no reason the state's employees shouldn't take a hit too.

If they don't like it, they can always go 'outside' and find a job in the private sector. Hey, isn't that the proof of the pudding? If the civil service job is not so much easier for more pay, why aren't more employees moving out? Perhaps the true way to compare public sector jobs to private sector jobs is the turnover rate? Not the wages or bennies. Basically, if nobody ever quits a civil service job, they are over compensated. Cut their compensation until the 'quit rate' is the same as the private sector?

 

[BeAChooser]

Cut their compensation until the 'quit rate' is the same as the private sector?

Now there's an innovative and noteworthy idea.

 

[BeAChooser]

Get this from the Teacher's Union side of the Wisconsin protest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuilXyFC6fM

Kim Hoffman reminds me a teacher who lied about her situation in New Jersey during a confrontation with Governor Christie. Remember that? http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176637&highlight=rita+wilson

Now note in the comments it states that Kim is a part time music teacher making $27K in salary and another $16K in benefits. Her husband is another teacher who makes $71K in salary and and another $30K in benefits. I'm sure many Americans envy a family income of $98K a year in salary and another $46K in benefits.

But as noted, Kim states that she is in the National Guard, which makes their income even higher. In fact, Kim claims in her sob story that the bill would mean $1200 less a month for her family. Using 7% (which is the reduction in the bill), their income must be $205k (and that's giving her the benefit of the doubt of assuming she was counting both salary and benefits when figuring the consequences of the bill). She whines "I will no longer be able to afford to teach." Really? She and her husband want us to believe they can't live on $190K per year in salary and benefits? In Wisconsin?

 

[The_Animus]

The police cannot arrest state representatives just for not voting. And they certainly can't "round them up and force a vote". Come on guys, a little critical thinking is warranted here.

Actually they can, which is why the representatives left the state so as to go outside of police jurisdiction. I cannot recall the exact wording, but the law says something about how representatives can be compelled to vote. The wording is a bit vague and doesn't specify what can and can't be done to compel a vote. Nonetheless there were real efforts to find and bring back the representatives using the police.

The drama in Madison began At 11:30 a.m., when a roll call revealed none of the Senate Democrats was there. Soon after, Republican Senate President Mike Ellis announced a "call of the house" to send officers to force errant Democrats to return to the chamber.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/lo...cle_01c093f0-3ac0-11e0-ba01-001cc4c002e0.html

 

[johnny karate]

Here's an interesting take.

According to this editorial, not only was Wisconsin not experiencing a budget shortfall, but actually a budget surplus:

In fact, like just about every other state in the country, Wisconsin is managing in a weak economy. The difference is that Wisconsin is managing better -- or at least it had been managing better until Walker took over. Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse, the state has balanced budgets, maintained basic services and high-quality schools, and kept employment and business development steadier than the rest of the country. It has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.


In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

The $137 million deficit that Governor's Walker "budget repair" bill is meant to address was actually created by Walker:

To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

Here is the link to the Fiscal Bureau memo that details the 2009-2011 budget surplus:

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

 

[BeAChooser]

Actually they can, which is why the representatives left the state so as to go outside of police jurisdiction. I cannot recall the exact wording, but the law says something about how representatives can be compelled to vote.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/wisconst.pdf

Organization of legislature; quorum; compulsory attendance. SECTION 7. Each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members; and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide.

Also, this is apparently from Wisconsin law:

946.12 Misconduct in public office. Any public officer or public employee who does any of the following is guilty of a Class I felony:

946.12(1)
(1) Intentionally fails or refuses to perform a known mandatory, nondiscretionary, ministerial duty of the officer’s or employee’s office or employment within the time or in the manner required by law.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

My instinct is to support this legislation because the people representing the taxpayers at the bargaining table are.. politicians. Corporations and their shareholders can take care of themselves dealing with private unions but our political system is such a mess and budget shortfalls are so much in vogue I can't see how the taxpayers eventually paying these pensions and benefits could get a fair shake.

(Edit: Anyways give the democrats a break, it's just political theater.. It's not like they can just never come back, this will likely play well with their base. Politics as usual, man.)

 

[leftysergeant]

Now there's an innovative and noteworthy idea.

You are less witty than you take yourself to be. You are cheering on a thug who borke government just to have an excuse to break working people. It is all part of the corporatist long term strategy to beat the working class back into peonage.

I have a better idea. Break the corporations by a massive walk-out. Then let's see idiots like Walker call out the National Guard to herd their neighbors back to work.

Idiot boy Walker assumed too much power. He is not the wave of the future, but an undertow to the 19th century.

 

[Neally]

So?

So government workers are compensated more for the same work.

Now, get this straight right now. I know that you will, as a knee-jerk right-winger, have a problem digesting it, but government workers are not over-paid, even if they are, after years of abuse by the likes of the Shrub, Cheney and Rummy, over-worked, especially in VA hospitals.Private sector nurses are getting ripped off so that useless maggots like Bill Frist can make bazillions a year.

Should have guessed that ultimately your argument would boil down to it's the evil capitalists fault, plus Bush.

Limiting the data set gives a distorted picture, which is one of the many reasons (including the lack of controls) why the USA Today stuff isn't very useful.

Limiting the data set to the most relevant data is what makes it the most useful. Fudging around the data to make it work according to the requested ideology is what Keefe did.

Haha, the one that didn't control for experience and education...

"Credibility" evidently means something very different in your world. That same sloppy technique is what leads people to conclude homeopathy works.

If data manipulation for the desired result in order to support your belief system works for you, then enjoy your fantasy world.

 

[leftysergeant]

Should have guessed that ultimately your argument would boil down to it's the evil capitalists fault, plus Bush.

Well, of course it's thjeir fault. America was starting to work again when the Shrub came along and broke it.

By the same token, idiot boy Walker should get no support for his programs to fix what he broke by breaking something else.

Walker broke the state deliberately to have an excuse to break the working class for the benefit of the entrepreneurs who own his nads.

Disgusting little punk, that one.