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That's actually a pretty good summary. :)

Kind of strange that so many of them, with their variety of source confusions, wind up behaving the same.
Mackey, here are a lot of people around who need your help about some very basic things. Please stay here and explain something to your chosen ones even if they never say "I'm sorry."

Kind of strange that so many of them, with their variety of source confusions, wind up behaving the same. I cannot find a better way to say it. Thank you.
 
...and you found no surviver on B2 or B3. So we simply don't know if they had a trauma or were blown into pieces. Maybe the second including total incinerating because the pieces were not found or described or identified..

There are no injuries sustained by anyone that are consistent with man-made demolition. There were lots of victims that sustained burns consistent with jet fuel flash burns. Jet fuel was noticed at all levels of the towers.

Are any of the staff from B2 or B3 missing?

Inform yourself about how the rubble was sifted at WTC. Each pail of loose debris was examined by hand and eye three times, the last on a conveyor belt operation at Fresh Kills manned by 5,0000 forensics experts.

Human remains and hard objects down to bone fragments and dental work were found and generally identified.
 
I have never seen a 'Truther' give a convincing or realistic reason for there to be a need for any bombs or controlled demolition. Without that they are all just putting the cart before the horse.
 
I have never seen a 'Truther' give a convincing or realistic reason for there to be a need for any bombs or controlled demolition. Without that they are all just putting the cart before the horse.

That has always puzzled me.Why such an elaborate conspiracy? Old Dubya Bush couldn't organize an orgy in a brothel,but truthers think that he and his incompetent government came up with this convoluted plan. No chance.
 
...and you found no surviver on B2 or B3. So we simply don't know if they had a trauma or were blown into pieces. Maybe the second including total incinerating because the pieces were not found or described or identified.
Please, bring facts, not speculation transformed into your "truth".

B2 and B3 seem to be parkings, meaning they would probably be basically empty, yet we have this:


Male: ASAP, six-three, be advised, I have two ABM workers down here on the B2 between the red and the yellow lots. Be advised, I've got two ABM workers hurt. I need an ER ESP down here ASAP!

Male: Where do you need the assistance for the ABM workers?

Male: B2 between the red lot, and the yellow lot, the walkway where the ABM office is.
WTC Ch, 22 SHO PD Desk – 2131 p.4


Female: (inaudible) be advised, there is so much smoke on B2 west, we’re evacuating and we’re coming up!
Op. Cit. p.14 (note the references to the lots). No mention of a bomb, dead people, people in pieces, etc. No support for your fantasies.

(Thanks to http://sites.google.com/site/911stories/insidethenorthtower:witnessaccounts,lobb for the references, which I could look up and complete.)

And you seem to have forgotten to comment on message #669.

I was trained to blow up bridges in the army. What do you know about bombs?
What do you know about deflagrations and behaviour of fire?

They DO NOT, under any circumstances, coat people with a Class B fuel and forget the little trees. So nobody and nothing was coated. A badly burnt woman from the lobby was burnt without seeing any fire.
Yet there is a PAPD policeman who dodged a fireball.

The fuel would just go around elevator cars.
...after it reached the cars first.
Indeed:

Gerry Wertz, a human resources executive at Marsh & McLennan, was in a north tower elevator when it stopped on the 91st floor. The only other passenger, artist Vanessa Lawrence, got out.

"She was stepping off the elevator when the plane hit," Wertz recalls. "There was an explosion on top of the elevator as if someone had thrown a hand grenade. I jumped out, fell to the floor and looked behind me. I saw the elevator disintegrate in a ball of flames and fall down (the shaft). There was a big hole in the ceiling above the elevator. I saw the cables fold up as if they'd become detached. It took no more than two seconds."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-04-elevator-usat_x.htm

A full elevator had just left the 78th floor, and Carmen was about to carry up six or seven stragglers. The plane struck as the doors of her elevator closed. They could hear debris smash into the top of the car; then the elevator cracked open, and flames poured in. Carmen jammed her fingers between the closed doors, pulled them partly open and held them as passengers clambered over and under her 5-foot-6 frame to escape.

Before finally throwing herself out onto the lobby floor, she glanced back to be sure the elevator was empty. That was when fire scorched her face with second- and third-degree burns, and literally welded her hooped right earring to her neck. Her hands were badly burned.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/sept11/2002-09-10-surivivor-griffiths_x.htm
 
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Nutty, you totally failed about airplane speeds claiming to be a pilot.
q.e.d.
Prove it? Go ahead show me where I failed with airplane speeds. You

The video from the OP is total junk. His models failed, like all your ideas and 911 truth failed claims. No evidence. ... prove I got the airplane speed wrong, or admit you are making up your next failed opinion.

Darn, you took your delusions and left; someone must of stolen your login information!

q.e.d.

Bye bye folks. Nothing left here anymore.
Have fun haunting the shadow of it.
quod erat demonstrandum? So you were trying to demonstrate you have no evidence and your ideas were delusions based on lies and hearsay; or, you failed to make a point so you faked victory and left? Who stole you login stuff?

What was your take on the video? Sorry, you are bye, bye.
 
I haven't read the entire thread and I'm not an engineer, but are there any experiments (not from the truth movement) that have been done regarding the collapses? If not, how might one go about doing something like that? In others words, how do you make a correct collapse model?
 
I haven't read the entire thread and I'm not an engineer, but are there any experiments (not from the truth movement) that have been done regarding the collapses? If not, how might one go about doing something like that? In others words, how do you make a correct collapse model?

GageWithBoxes.jpg
 
I haven't read the entire thread and I'm not an engineer, but are there any experiments (not from the truth movement) that have been done regarding the collapses? If not, how might one go about doing something like that? In others words, how do you make a correct collapse model?

Bump.
 
I haven't read the entire thread and I'm not an engineer, but are there any experiments (not from the truth movement) that have been done regarding the collapses? If not, how might one go about doing something like that? In others words, how do you make a correct collapse model?

The simple answer is that you can't. The collapses were too complex and too chaotic for any model, whether physical or mathematical, to do more than give a general idea of the gross characteristics of the collapses. One could build an identical structure and simulate the damage and fires, but the actual collapse would very likely differ in some observable way from the real WTC collapses. Of course, the cost of a physical model would be equivalent to building another WTC, so it's not worth the money. NIST modelled the collapse of WTC7 with as valid a computer model as was feasible, but predictably found that the results didn't look exactly like the actual collapse, which is another one of the gaps truthers like to insert their god into.

Scale models are difficult, because lengths, areas and volumes scale differently. I believe some work has been done on collapse simulation using scale models, but the materials have to be very different to the steel used in the real buildings. A half-scale model of a WTC tower would be four times as resistant to collapse, because a mass one-eighth of the original would be supported by columns a quarter the area and half the length. And if the materials properties or the column dimensions are adjusted to give correct scaling, the truthers will describe it as "tweaking the model to ensure collapse".

Dave
 
I haven't read the entire thread and I'm not an engineer, but are there any experiments (not from the truth movement) that have been done regarding the collapses? If not, how might one go about doing something like that? In others words, how do you make a correct collapse model?
Yep.
The behavior for every material known, under load, temperature, and other environmental conditions have ben laboratory tested and published, way back when.
http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-HDBK/MIL-HDBK+(0001+-+0099)/MIL_HDBK_5J_139/
Additional lab results for materials may be found in ASTM, ASME, ASCE, ASChE, SAE, and AIAA standards. Years and years of testing.
 
I haven't read the entire thread and I'm not an engineer, but are there any experiments (not from the truth movement) that have been done regarding the collapses? If not, how might one go about doing something like that? In others words, how do you make a correct collapse model?

I talked about the challenge in detail in my first Hardfire series. The key will be figuring out what features of the collapse you want to model, and which you consider too much detail and neglect. Once you do that, work out equations of motion, and try to come up with a scaling approach that preserves relationships in the problem.

It can be done. But it will take a nontrivial effort. I've seen nothing from the Truthers (except in the digital realm) that comes close.
 
Oh no! Clash of the titans.

Why does the lack of reading comprehension not surprise me?


You cannot make a scale model that models all aspects of the collapse, what you can do is to model some individual aspects of it.
 
Why does the lack of reading comprehension not surprise me?


You cannot make a scale model that models all aspects of the collapse, what you can do is to model some individual aspects of it.

You must have been living with it for quite some time.


Dave said that a correct collapse model could not be done. Mackey said it could
 
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You must have been living with it for quite some time.


Dave said that a correct collapse model could not be done. Mackey said it could

Where did Mackey say that?

R.Mackey said:
The key will be figuring out what features of the collapse you want to model, and which you consider too much detail and neglect.
 
Oh no! Clash of the titans.

Why does the lack of reading comprehension not surprise me?


You cannot make a scale model that models all aspects of the collapse, what you can do is to model some individual aspects of it.
Which is what they both said in slightly different words.

Red is telling porkies by quote mining. And with the true statements just a few posts higher up the same page.
 
Which is what they both said in slightly different words.

Red is telling porkies by quote mining. And with the true statements just a few posts higher up the same page.

I suppose you're right. In the world of the semantics cavalry when one says it can be done and another says it can't, this means the same thing.
 

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