The Freeman Movement and England

[Carll68]

And, yes I'm comparing Amish buggies to traveling in a car. The latter is FAR SAFER, so why would we need licenses and not the Amish??

Well.. the Amish aren't really apart of American society. They might live here, but they don't submit to statutory law. They submit to God's Law and Common Law.

Uh-Hum...and what if the Amish wanted to drive a car?

Hmmmmm?

What is we wanted to live in an Amish community and drive a horse drawn cart?

Hmmmmm?

Feel stupid yet?

 

[tsig]

Thank you for proving that Lawful Rebellion most definitely has its place.

And I don't think it. I know it.

Why don't you call and just figure it out yourself...

This isn't about me. This is about YOU, claiming that pieces of paper are going to protect anyone. That people OBVIOUSLY have the "Right" to do something, just because it's written down. YOU made that claim and stated that I was full of it and then listed some Supreme Court cases, did you not??

So why don't you call ANY Miss. Gov't Agency and tell me the name of one person who says I have the right to carry an unconcealed weapon without a permit??

I don't understand why you just don't settle it instead of talking about things you're unaware of...

It's blatantly obvious that virtually everything our government does is unconstitutional. And your idea is, to sit back and take it?? .. or to lawfully rebel? Which one?

The only person flailing is yourself and j-busted.

Call THE MAN and ask him if Mississippians can carry an UNCONCEALED GUN without a permit.

Look up the definitions of a "state" in a law dictionary.

Look to this thread, where Buster was officially busted for the FIRST time...
http://freemen.freeforums.org/statute-t50.html

What was I wrong about, again???

THE CITY OF LONDON is a corporation. That's the person's name.
It *is* a corporation.

A body politic, a state, a corporation... all refer to the same thing -- a collective group of people. It has NOTHING to do with fictitious walls. Or you're at least not speaking in legalese anymore, and you're speaking modern English. We're gonna have to use a law dictionary here, however, since that's what we're talking about, right??

Lawful Rebellion is only lawful when the revolution succeeds otherwise the rebels tend to die early.

 

[Jake Dale]

so let's get back to this consent issue grndslm.

what do your policies, rules, etc. have to do with me?

bump

 

[tsig]

Prove that Missisippians have the right to carry an unconcealed gun without a permit, even tho it's written down in two different Constitutions... and then you will have your answer.

That's "rallying against my peers"??

Do you people really speak English, or what?

My attitude, eh??

So that means you side with j-buster on which of his posts?? ... in regards to his attitude over mine?? Point them out for us.

You only side with him to prove my point, that MOST of you are sheeple, just like Americans. In fact, I'd say this group is far more sheepish than any Mississippians I've ever met.

You're NOT going to find an answer in a TITLE, like "Freeman". OK? I have previously said this, and I will say it repeatedly until you stop asking it.

You have to assert your reality in order to "become free".

If your reality is that you are invincible because you have a title, then I'm sorry I've been wasting my time here. You're not grasping the concept that you're not FREE because you're a FREEMAN. You're FREE because you ASSERT YOUR RIGHTS!!
Are you braindead, or what??? Nobody ever taught you how to research? It took me less than 3 seconds to find this link...

the city of london is a corporation

The answer is right under your noses.

Do you know what a municipality is??

Good, then being a freeman is no use at all.

 

[Stacey Grove]

I asked:

What about those that cover consumption taxes?
How do you avoid paying taxes on your spending?
Or do you (conveniently) consent to those laws?

grndslm quoted me and replied:

You are talking about the Law of the Sea, not the Law of the Land.

In that case, you must do as the captain says or jump overboard.

You didn't answer my question.
Do you consent to paying consumption taxes or not?

 

[grndslm]

Uh-Hum...and what if the Amish wanted to drive a car?

Hmmmmm?

Then they wouldn't be Amish anymore, **************.

What is we wanted to live in an Amish community and drive a horse drawn cart?

Hmmmmm?

Then you would be Amish.

Feel stupid yet?

Not one iota. **************.

Lawful Rebellion is only lawful when the revolution succeeds otherwise the rebels tend to die early.

"Today is a good day to die."

It could be better, but I'm happy with the life I've lived up until now.

Good, then being a freeman is no use at all.

Pretty much. It's an identifier to get people thinking critically about larger topics. Like, "Who am I?"; "What do all these words mean?"; "What are all these contracts that I have been accepting, but not reading, questioning, & understanding?"; "Why can the government take my property if I don't pay taxes. Isn't it my property??; etcetera.

What does "being a freeman" mean to you?

To me, it's not just claiming, "I am a freeman."

It is asserting many things that you understand... like you don't need to ask anybody for permission if you have the "right" to do it... like the fact that you're a Child of God, and the fact that the government official swears oaths to protect your freedom of religion, etc.

Really... the topic of "being a freeman" is so wide, that's why we have so my sub-forums!!

You are misunderstanding that "being a freeman" is simply saying, "I AM A FREEMAN!" That doesn't give you the knowledge to understand the systems of law & money that we actually use.

Edited, breach of rule 0.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[grndslm]

I asked:


grndslm quoted me and replied:

You didn't answer my question.
Do you consent to paying consumption taxes or not?

If I want the benefit of the captain's services/goods, I will accept his offer.

Also, I have absolutely NO issue with paying sales tax. Not one issue whatsoever. So, yes... I consent to paying sales tax.

I don't consent to paying property tax, income tax, social security, medicare, etc., however.

In my ideal world... sales tax would be the only tax around. Mabe a "heavier", excise tax on some products... but that's still just sales tax. All the rest are fraudulent.

bump

I don't understand the question.

What policies or rules are you referring to?? In what reference is this hypothetical situation framed??

 

[Stacey Grove]

If I want the benefit of the captain's services/goods, I will accept his offer.

Also, I have absolutely NO issue with paying sales tax. Not one issue whatsoever. So, yes... I consent to paying sales tax.

I don't consent to paying property tax, income tax, social security, medicare, etc., however.

Don't worry, I knew you would consent to paying taxes on your spending.
You don't have much choice do you?
You see, if your arguments were correct it would be possible to spend and not pay tax instead of just having the choice of whether to spend or not.

 

[grndslm]

Don't worry, I knew you would consent to paying taxes on your spending.
You don't have much choice do you?
You see, if your arguments were correct it would be possible to spend and not pay tax instead of just having the choice of whether to spend or not.

Like I said.. only sales tax is fair tax, IMHO. Tax should come from the register.... anywhere else and that's double taxation.

I took my motorized bicycle to a welder a couple months back and they didn't charge me sales tax. So it's not impossible.

Honestly, Freemen are supposed to be completely self-sufficient, of their own affairs, "sui juris". Not too many people can pull that off, while managing not to use the Federal Reserve's private credit.

 

[Carll68]

I feel silly having to explain the simplest of things to you...HOWEVER..that was not the argument you were making (if one is Amish or not). Yet, your reply states "Then you would be Amish" and "Then they would not be Amish".

WRONG

First, The argument you were making is that the Amish can drive horse drawn carts without licenses because they are not part of American society, because they do not submit to statutory law, that they submit to Gods law.

Next, My question was and is....what if I decided to go to an Amish community and drive a horse drawn Cart? I am not Amish (As you foolishly claimed I would be)..but, yet, I do not need a license. Why is this?

Finally, what if an Amish individual decided to go against there parents wishes and drive a car? Could they legally without a license? As soon as they drove the car..would they no longer be Amish?

The reason is that this has nothing to do with God's law, not submitting or any other idiocy you present... and everything to do with the fact that you DO NOT NEED A LICENSE TO DRIVE A HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE, but DO NEED ONE TO OPERATE A MOTOR VEHICLE!

This is preposterous that you don't even understand your own logic, and debate against another argument entirely.

If you don't feel stupid yet, you should.

 

[Jake Dale]

I don't understand the question.

What policies or rules are you referring to?? In what reference is this hypothetical situation framed??

what does, whatever you consent to, have to do with me or anyone else?

 

[tsig]

Then they wouldn't be Amish anymore, **************.

Then you would be Amish.

Not one iota. **************.

"Today is a good day to die."

It could be better, but I'm happy with the life I've lived up until now.

Pretty much. It's an identifier to get people thinking critically about larger topics. Like, "Who am I?"; "What do all these words mean?"; "What are all these contracts that I have been accepting, but not reading, questioning, & understanding?"; "Why can the government take my property if I don't pay taxes. Isn't it my property??; etcetera.

What does "being a freeman" mean to you?

To me, it's not just claiming, "I am a freeman."

It is asserting many things that you understand... like you don't need to ask anybody for permission if you have the "right" to do it... like the fact that you're a Child of God, and the fact that the government official swears oaths to protect your freedom of religion, etc. Really... the topic of "being a freeman" is so wide, that's why we have so my sub-forums!!

You are misunderstanding that "being a freeman" is simply saying, "I AM A FREEMAN!" That doesn't give you the knowledge to understand the systems of law & money that we actually use.

Edited, breach of rule 0.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

As a freeman why would I need someone else to protect my freedom? If freedom depends on another then they can always revoke the freedom whenever they want so you're not really free.

 

[Cocana The Second]

the city of london is a corporation

The answer is right under your noses.

Do you know what a municipality is??

Oh brilliant I've looked at your "research". Clearly another friend from across the Atlantic who doesn't appreciate that American English and English are not always the same.

You guys use the word "corporation" in the same way as we use the word "company". What you don't seem to appreciate, however, is that when we use the word "corporation" it doesn't adopt the US meaning unless we are in fact referring to one of your corporations or, say, a Japanese one for example. An English "corporation" is not the same animal; a "company" is the same as your "corporation" here. We have corporations which run councils and the like; this does not mean that they are profit making institutions operating for the benefit of their shareholders.

Quality "research" there, grndslm. What further stunners can you enlighten us with?!

 

[tsig]

I feel silly having to explain the simplest of things to you...HOWEVER..that was not the argument you were making (if one is Amish or not). Yet, your reply states "Then you would be Amish" and "Then they would not be Amish".

WRONG

First, The argument you were making is that the Amish can drive horse drawn carts without licenses because they are not part of American society, because they do not submit to statutory law, that they submit to Gods law.

Next, My question was and is....what if I decided to go to an Amish community and drive a horse drawn Cart? I am not Amish (As you foolishly claimed I would be)..but, yet, I do not need a license. Why is this?

Finally, what if an Amish individual decided to go against there parents wishes and drive a car? Could they legally without a license? As soon as they drove the car..would they no longer be Amish?

The reason is that this has nothing to do with God's law, not submitting or any other idiocy you present... and everything to do with the fact that you DO NOT NEED A LICENSE TO DRIVE A HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE, but DO NEED ONE TO OPERATE A MOTOR VEHICLE!

This is preposterous that you don't even understand your own logic, and debate against another argument entirely.

If you don't feel stupid yet, you should.

Not true in Mass.

It is unlawful to operate, or permit another to operate, a horse drawn carriage unless the owner of has obtained a license from the Department. Additionally, the driver of a carriage must hold a valid certificate of competency to operate a horse drawn carriage granted by an inspector of the Department. All license and certificate applications can be obtained via the link below.

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dps/appl/appl_horse_carriage_driver.pdf

 

[abaddon]

Like I said.. only sales tax is fair tax, IMHO. Tax should come from the register.... anywhere else and that's double taxation.

Yep, I have seen this proposed before and on the face of it, it seems a good idea.

You, the individual, receive your income in full and untaxed. You, the individual, chose where and upon what to spend your income. All taxes are effectively levied at the point of sale, but the key point is you, the individual, get to choose what to spend your income on, all of it.

As an intellectual exercise, it works.

In reality, it breaks down. First of all, in such a scenario, sales taxes would have to balloon rapidly to make up for the missing income taxes.

Secondly, government tax revenues would be entirely at the whim of market forces. In a recession such as we are currently experiencing, people would stuff their mattresses rather than spend, leading to a collapse of revenue, and a consequent collapse of state provided services.

Therefore, a compromise position is best, where state revenue is comprised of two components. Sales tax and direct income tax establishing a baseline of revenue which the state has a sufficient source of funds to provide basic services like roads, health, and so forth.

The current system did not happen by accident, you know.

One might quibble about tax codes in place all over the world, but ultimately, like all of these things it is a compromise that best fits, and all one will be left with are quibbles.

If you really want to exclude yourself from this de facto arrangement, feel free.

Stop using roads, health services, welfare, voting rights, electricity, gas, education (clearly, you have already done this), shops, etc.

 

[grndslm]

I feel silly having to explain the simplest of things to you...HOWEVER..that was not the argument you were making (if one is Amish or not). Yet, your reply states "Then you would be Amish" and "Then they would not be Amish".

WRONG

Amish are not allowed to drive cars!!! It's against their religion. They're not allowed to have cell phones. If they did either one, they would cease to be Amish. They must use taxi cabs and pay the driver... but they cannot drive themselves.

First, The argument you were making is that the Amish can drive horse drawn carts without licenses because they are not part of American society, because they do not submit to statutory law, that they submit to Gods law.

Regardless of what a statute says, the Amish have the freedom of religion, which includes the freedom from "modern day hassles, technology". Ohio is one state I've been to where Amish are only asked to have an orange triangle. My brother and I still almost smashed into the rear of one when going over a hill.

The government can't do anything about it, but they could at least ACT like they're maintaining some control by making a statute that goes along with Common Law.

Next, My question was and is....what if I decided to go to an Amish community and drive a horse drawn Cart? I am not Amish (As you foolishly claimed I would be)..but, yet, I do not need a license. Why is this?

I repeat... the government can at least ACT like they're maintaining some control by making a statute that goes along with Common Law.

Finally, what if an Amish individual decided to go against there parents wishes and drive a car? Could they legally without a license? As soon as they drove the car..would they no longer be Amish?

They would no longer be Amish if they're driving the car.

As long as I'm punching you in the face, I'm not a Christian now, am I?

The reason is that this has nothing to do with God's law, not submitting or any other idiocy you present... and everything to do with the fact that you DO NOT NEED A LICENSE TO DRIVE A HORSE DRAWN CARRIAGE, but DO NEED ONE TO OPERATE A MOTOR VEHICLE!

What state? Define License. Define Drive. Define Operate. Define Motor Vehicle.

This is preposterous that you don't even understand your own logic, and debate against another argument entirely.

I'm not doing anything of the sort. Like everyone else, you're jumping to conclusions.

If you don't feel stupid yet, you should.

Just curious...

Why can you repeatedly use the word "stupid", yet I can't use the word "nincompoop"??

 

[grndslm]

what does, whatever you consent to, have to do with me or anyone else?

Who said that it did??

As a freeman why would I need someone else to protect my freedom? If freedom depends on another then they can always revoke the freedom whenever they want so you're not really free.

You're not depending on another. It's a fact that the guy swore an oath to protect your rights and the rest of the state's & country's Constitutions. You use it as a tool if need be. The only entity you should be relying / trust on... is God, of course.

 

[abaddon]

Why can you repeatedly use the word "stupid", yet I can't use the word "nincompoop"??

There is a saying:
"Stupid is as stupid does."

If the shoe fits, you get to wear it.

 

[grndslm]

Oh brilliant I've looked at your "research". Clearly another friend from across the Atlantic who doesn't appreciate that American English and English are not always the same.

You guys use the word "corporation" in the same way as we use the word "company". What you don't seem to appreciate, however, is that when we use the word "corporation" it doesn't adopt the US meaning unless we are in fact referring to one of your corporations or, say, a Japanese one for example.

Last time I checked... American Law Dictionaries have "locked in" the same "British Law" terms. Perhaps corporation doesn't mean the same thing to the Avg. Joe in London, but to a lawyer... it means the same thing... a legal fiction with separate privileges & duties from its members.. along with limited liability.

An English "corporation" is not the same animal; a "company" is the same as your "corporation" here. We have corporations which run councils and the like; this does not mean that they are profit making institutions operating for the benefit of their shareholders.

Quality "research" there, grndslm. What further stunners can you enlighten us with?!

Well... do you know what the definition of a "person" is??

A person is a corporation, association, firm, partnership, co-partnership, etc.

If you knew that... you would obviously know that a person and a man are not the same animals... far more different than the difference between a company and a corporation.

 

[grndslm]

There is a saying:
"Stupid is as stupid does."

If the shoe fits, you get to wear it.

I'm just curious, why the subjectivity??

Why is equality not important to the mods?

If you think that a post violates the Membership Agreement, you should report it rather than introducing Forum Management discussion into threads outside of Forum Management. If you want to raise an issue of Forum Management, please do so in the appropriate sub-forum.

Posted By: LashL