The Freeman Movement and England

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Not true in Mass.

It is unlawful to operate, or permit another to operate, a horse drawn carriage unless the owner of has obtained a license from the Department. Additionally, the driver of a carriage must hold a valid certificate of competency to operate a horse drawn carriage granted by an inspector of the Department. All license and certificate applications can be obtained via the link below.

http://www.mass.gov/Eeops/docs/dps/appl/appl_horse_carriage_driver.pdf
It is NOT unlawful to operate anything, provided that you're not injuring someone or damaging someone's property, or committing fraud by acting as if you were a licensed cab/truck driver. Otherwise, it's merely illegal for the members of that society who consent.

How could you get pulled over on a horse & buggy anyway???

Taillights out? Speeding? Cut someone off?? You're... :jaw-dropp... BLACK??

Gimme a break.
 
I'm just curious, why the subjectivity??

Why is equality not important to the mods?

I reiterate:

If you really want to exclude yourself from this de facto arrangement, feel free.

Stop using roads, health services, welfare, voting rights, electricity, gas, education (clearly, you have already done this), shops, etc.

And your answer is....?
 
The Law states.. I have the freedom of religion. Does it not?? If I'm following God's Law, then what makes you think I'm above it??

It is not my intention to be snarky or quarrelsome (at least in this post), but what precisely do you mean when you say " I'm following God's Law"?
 
Amish are not allowed to drive cars!!! It's against their religion. They're not allowed to have cell phones. If they did either one, they would cease to be Amish. They must use taxi cabs and pay the driver... but they cannot drive themselves.

Regardless of what a statute says, the Amish have the freedom of religion, which includes the freedom from "modern day hassles, technology". Ohio is one state I've been to where Amish are only asked to have an orange triangle. My brother and I still almost smashed into the rear of one when going over a hill.

The government can't do anything about it, but they could at least ACT like they're maintaining some control by making a statute that goes along with Common Law.

I repeat... the government can at least ACT like they're maintaining some control by making a statute that goes along with Common Law.

They would no longer be Amish if they're driving the car.

As long as I'm punching you in the face, I'm not a Christian now, am I?

What state? Define License. Define Drive. Define Operate. Define Motor Vehicle.

I'm not doing anything of the sort. Like everyone else, you're jumping to conclusions.

Just curious...

Why can you repeatedly use the word "stupid", yet I can't use the word "nincompoop"??

I can only explain something to you so many times before it is a lost cause. Your logic, just like your entire FOTL argument, is nonsense.

You state if they drive cars, they are no longer Amish. This is of course a fabrication. Driving a car does not make them relinquish their Amish beliefs, but it does make them get a license. Do you think that an Amish person has never driven a car..ever? look into rumschpringen.

The Muslim faith decalres murdering innocents unjust..but that did not stop 9/11......where they no longer of Muslim faith?

Your logic is idiotic.
 
Well... do you know what the definition of a "person" is??

A person is a corporation, association, firm, partnership, co-partnership, etc.

If you knew that... you would obviously know that a person and a man are not the same animals... far more different than the difference between a company and a corporation.


If you knew what the definition of "person" is you would know that it includes these in addition to natural persons.

ETA: definitions from Stroud's Judicial Dictionary 7th ed (2006):
PERSON. Even before the passage of the Interpretation Act 1889 (c.63) it was considered that prima facie the word "person", in a public statute, included a corporation as well as a natural person.

And Mozley and Whiteley's Law Dictionary 12th ed (2001):
Person. 1. a human being capable of rights, also called a natural person.
2. A corporation or legal person i.e. an artificial person (see the Interpretation Act 1978 s.5 Sch 1).
 
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Yep, I have seen this proposed before and on the face of it, it seems a good idea.

You, the individual, receive your income in full and untaxed. You, the individual, chose where and upon what to spend your income. All taxes are effectively levied at the point of sale, but the key point is you, the individual, get to choose what to spend your income on, all of it.
It's the only logical solution to the problems of taxation.

As an intellectual exercise, it works.

In reality, it breaks down. First of all, in such a scenario, sales taxes would have to balloon rapidly to make up for the missing income taxes.
It really wouldn't be all that different when you factor in the excise taxes on things we should curb back from using.

If they need to "balloon rapidly", perhaps the alternate... "decrease spending" would be a swell idea?

Secondly, government tax revenues would be entirely at the whim of market forces. In a recession such as we are currently experiencing, people would stuff their mattresses rather than spend, leading to a collapse of revenue, and a consequent collapse of state provided services.
And...?? Government agents should only be working voluntarily anyway, not for pay. Anything more than $10,000 for a congressman is way too much. Cut spending there first. Stop building the military industrial complex and keep a good defense. Many solutions to decrease spending if you get down to it. It's not my fault that you can't think of them all by yourself.

Therefore, a compromise position is best, where state revenue is comprised of two components. Sales tax and direct income tax establishing a baseline of revenue which the state has a sufficient source of funds to provide basic services like roads, health, and so forth.
You're probly right. I've long thought that sales tax & property tax should be the two components. New Hampshire only has property tax, but they have a little sales tax that goes toward the county level. New Hampshire really is a model state in many aspects. That's why they've got the Free State Project.

The current system did not happen by accident, you know.
It came from putting us in a pot full of water and gradually turning the heat up. I realize.

One might quibble about tax codes in place all over the world, but ultimately, like all of these things it is a compromise that best fits, and all one will be left with are quibbles.
Like I've said before, look to Egypt as an example that quibbles are not all that we are left with.

If you really want to exclude yourself from this de facto arrangement, feel free.

Stop using roads, health services, welfare, voting rights, electricity, gas, education (clearly, you have already done this), shops, etc.
Electricity and gas are private corporations. I went to private schol... so clearly, I have not used a single thing from the government. We don't have universal health care either, so ... nope not using the government for jack.

Do you realize the number of Supreme Court cases that CLAIM the "de facto government" does NOT own the roads?? They were paid for by the people for all men's PUBLIC use. If you use the roads for PRIVATE, commercial gain, then you are required to have a license. Everybody here pays for the roads in the form of sales tax @ the gas pumps. They ADMIT that the roads belong to the people and we have the RIGHT to use them. The roads DO NOT belong to the government.

Soo.. let's see... what benefit do I get from the government?? POLICE FORCE. That's it. That's all I have ever seen of the government my entire life. I have been stopped 3 or 4 times for exercising my right to FREE TRAVEL, on foot, or on bicycle... and am harassed about stealing things. They think I stole somebody's clothes??? I'm never carrying anything. They just want to be as intrusive as they possibly can.

If Americans saw the benefits that other countries have, maybe Lawful Rebellion wouldn't be on my mind so much.... but I really, really, really dislike the way governments are run here.
 
It is not my intention to be snarky or quarrelsome (at least in this post), but what precisely do you mean when you say " I'm following God's Law"?
Well... why on God's green earth... would we need a government, if we all acted like Christ Jesus taught us??

If we all loved the Lord God with all our hearts, all our souls, and all our minds, and loved our neighbors as ourself... then there would be absolutely no need for government "protections". Wouldn't you agree?

The "protections" that I get from the government are not for my security, but for their job security!!
 
I can only explain something to you so many times before it is a lost cause. Your logic, just like your entire FOTL argument, is nonsense.

You state if they drive cars, they are no longer Amish. This is of course a fabrication. Driving a car does not make them relinquish their Amish beliefs, but it does make them get a license. Do you think that an Amish person has never driven a car..ever? look into rumschpringen.

The Muslim faith decalres murdering innocents unjust..but that did not stop 9/11......where they no longer of Muslim faith?

Your logic is idiotic.

Or rather, the licencing authority doesn't give a flying **** whether they are Amish or not, merely that if they wish to operate a motor vehicle on public roads they have to pass a test, obtain a licence and pay the requisite taxation.

FOTLers get very confused because they seem to believe that their 'god' and it's supposed laws actually have some relevance outside of a church meeting. It doesn't.
 
Who said that it did??

You're not depending on another. It's a fact that the guy swore an oath to protect your rights and the rest of the state's & country's Constitutions. You use it as a tool if need be. The only entity you should be relying / trust on... is God, of course.

The constitutions are creations of men so you're submitting to them when you allow your rights to be circumscribed by a constitution.
 
I can only explain something to you so many times before it is a lost cause. Your logic, just like your entire FOTL argument, is nonsense.

You state if they drive cars, they are no longer Amish. This is of course a fabrication. Driving a car does not make them relinquish their Amish beliefs, but it does make them get a license. Do you think that an Amish person has never driven a car..ever? look into rumschpringen.
I don't think you're aware of what the Amish belief really is.

Like I said... it is impossible for an Amish man to drive a car.

It is impossible for a Christian to punch somebody in the face.

It is impossible for a Luddite to use electricity.

It is impossible for a Christian Scientist to be punished if they don't take their child to the hospital.

They do, indeed, cease to be what they were... at that point.

These would be hypocritical beliefs, which are not beliefs at all. It's very similar to what you guys are asking for in wanting to be able to say, "I'm a Freeman... Let me go scott free." Being a Freeman has nothing (well, I dunno about nothing) to do with what you call yourself, but everything to do with how you act.

The Muslim faith decalres murdering innocents unjust..but that did not stop 9/11......where they no longer of Muslim faith?
That would be correct. You yourself say... "Muslim faith is A. Some people do not follow A." Yet you want us to believe that because they call themselves Muslims, they are of A.

Is that not correct??

Your logic is idiotic.
I'm sorry... but your logic is far more idiotic.

Muslim faith is A. People do not follow A. Yet, these people are still of A???

Gimme a break...
 
A person is a corporation, association, firm, partnership, co-partnership, etc.

If you knew that... you would obviously know that a person and a man are not the same animals... far more different than the difference between a company and a corporation.
double-facepalm-300x240.jpg


All human beings are persons, but not all persons are human beings.
 
It is NOT unlawful to operate anything, provided that you're not injuring someone or damaging someone's property, or committing fraud by acting as if you were a licensed cab/truck driver. Otherwise, it's merely illegal for the members of that society who consent.

How could you get pulled over on a horse & buggy anyway???

Taillights out? Speeding? Cut someone off?? You're... :jaw-dropp... BLACK??

Gimme a break.

Yes, you have to have a yellow blinking light on the back of your buggy at night and driving drunk is still driving drunk no matter the horsepower.
 
If you knew what the definition of "person" is you would know that it includes these in addition to natural persons.

ETA: definitions from Stroud's Judicial Dictionary 7th ed (2006):

And Mozley and Whiteley's Law Dictionary 12th ed (2001):
My dictionaries do not say the same thing.

If you get some older Law dictionaries... 1910s, 1930s/40s, 1950s/60s, etc... you can see how some very key terms have changed over time, but they haven't changed entirely... only enough to be deceptive to most.

I think in Bouvier's dictionary, it actually defines a human being as a monster... so keep that in mind as well. You can't just look at a definition in a law dictionary and think you've hit the end. You have to keep filling in terms with the inner-terms to get the true answer.

Also... dictionaries made in the 2000s are not the understanding that Americans had when creating the Constitution and MOST statutes. Webster's 1828 is a better idea if you want to understand terms during the creation of the Constitution of the United States of America.
 
It's the only logical solution to the problems of taxation.

It really wouldn't be all that different when you factor in the excise taxes on things we should curb back from using.

If they need to "balloon rapidly", perhaps the alternate... "decrease spending" would be a swell idea?

And...?? Government agents should only be working voluntarily anyway, not for pay. Anything more than $10,000 for a congressman is way too much. Cut spending there first. Stop building the military industrial complex and keep a good defense. Many solutions to decrease spending if you get down to it. It's not my fault that you can't think of them all by yourself.

You're probly right. I've long thought that sales tax & property tax should be the two components. New Hampshire only has property tax, but they have a little sales tax that goes toward the county level. New Hampshire really is a model state in many aspects. That's why they've got the Free State Project.

It came from putting us in a pot full of water and gradually turning the heat up. I realize.

Like I've said before, look to Egypt as an example that quibbles are not all that we are left with.

Electricity and gas are private corporations. I went to private schol... so clearly, I have not used a single thing from the government. We don't have universal health care either, so ... nope not using the government for jack.

Do you realize the number of Supreme Court cases that CLAIM the "de facto government" does NOT own the roads?? They were paid for by the people for all men's PUBLIC use. If you use the roads for PRIVATE, commercial gain, then you are required to have a license. Everybody here pays for the roads in the form of sales tax @ the gas pumps. They ADMIT that the roads belong to the people and we have the RIGHT to use them. The roads DO NOT belong to the government.

Soo.. let's see... what benefit do I get from the government?? POLICE FORCE. That's it. That's all I have ever seen of the government my entire life. I have been stopped 3 or 4 times for exercising my right to FREE TRAVEL, on foot, or on bicycle... and am harassed about stealing things. They think I stole somebody's clothes??? I'm never carrying anything. They just want to be as intrusive as they possibly can.

If Americans saw the benefits that other countries have, maybe Lawful Rebellion wouldn't be on my mind so much.... but I really, really, really dislike the way governments are run here.

Brutal dictatorships, grinding poverty, arbitrary arrest. imprisonment and execution, Oh, where is this paradise??
 
Or rather, the licencing authority doesn't give a flying **** whether they are Amish or not, merely that if they wish to operate a motor vehicle on public roads they have to pass a test, obtain a licence and pay the requisite taxation.

FOTLers get very confused because they seem to believe that their 'god' and it's supposed laws actually have some relevance outside of a church meeting. It doesn't.
Dude...

Christian Scientists...

CANNOT...

be punished...

for not taking their children...

to the hospital...

when they're sick.

That is LAW, which stems from our First Amendment right to FREEDOM OF RELIGION. It starts at the Constitution and is re-affirmed thru Supreme Court precedent.

I'm sorry if you just won't accept this, but it is the TRUTH.
 
[qimg]http://arthropoda.southernfriedscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/double-facepalm-300x240.jpg[/qimg]

All human beings are persons, but not all persons are human beings.
I am not a person, for sure.

I don't like the term human being either.

I prefer the term "MAN", just as my country's founders referred to themselves as -- "MEN".

They never referred to themselves as human beings, because a human being is like a neanderthal to them.

Here's Bouvier's (1914 ed.) definition of a Monster --

MONSTER. An animal which has conformation contrary to the order of nature. 2 Dungl. Hum. Phys. 422.
It is said that a monster, although born of a woman in lawful wedlock, cannot inherit. Those who have, however, the essential parts of the human form, and have merely some defect of conformation, are capable of inheriting, if otherwise qualified; 2 Bla. Com. 246; 1 Beck,... yadda yadda
No living human birth, however much it may differ from human shape, can be lawfully destroyed. Traill, Med. Jur. 47... yadda yadda

You're not a person... you're a monster!!
 
Yes, you have to have a yellow blinking light on the back of your buggy at night and driving drunk is still driving drunk no matter the horsepower.
In Ohio, no lights are required. I made sure call and ask while I was there. We were staying near one of the largest Amish communities in the country (world?)...

Driving drunk is still driving drunk...
But it's not UNLAWFUL until you injure somebody or damage their property.

Speeding is still speeding...
Even if you're on a skateboard.

... AND...??
 
Electricity and gas are private corporations. I went to private schol... so clearly, I have not used a single thing from the government. We don't have universal health care either, so ... nope not using the government for jack.

This is why you have a fundamental misunderstanding of reality.

Things like electricity are built upon a massive infrastructure bought by and paid for by tax dollars. The roads you drive on? Unless you drive on a Toll Road absolutely everywhere - and no one on the earth does this - then you are driving upon infrastructure bought and paid for by tax dollars. Even by simply living in your house you are benefiting from police and fire services paid for by tax dollars. By posting on the internet right now, no matter who owns the computer you are posting from or what type of internet your paying for, you are using a government network that was paid for by tax dollars that was invented for government research. All of these things have a cost that in large part your monthly payments never touched, and they all were invented because no one in the private sector had any incentive to do so.

You don't consent to pay taxes? Thats fine. Get off our roads, get off our internet, stop using our utilities, and move out to the middle of a forest somewhere that has no police or fire protection. All of these things are benefits for members of the society that come at a cost - if you decline to pay that cost, you don't get to benefit. Until you do that you are nothing but a freeloader and a leach.
 
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