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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I was kidding, Alt! :)

I was trying to say humorously that it would be self-preservation as now people would be looking at them with skepticism. In the original trial Monica Napoleoni goes in there and tells a story about the interrogation that conflicts completely with the known facts, but gets away with it because the defense can't bring up the first 'statement' from the interrogation--which would show she was lying--as it had been thrown out by the Supreme Court, and the press was all going along for the ride. I don't think they could get away with that now.

Actually, it is my understanding that Napoleoni will be testifying for the prosecution on some other bar owners that the cops spoke to that were open that night, never mind the no shuttle buses, and other possibilities with "other" buses in the city. It should be entertaining to see how far she will stretch this.
 
I think the light has been turned on, and we're seeing the cockroaches scattering as we speak. I recall when reading about this that there were those who thought the possibility of the bra clasp and murder knife actually being subjected to an independent review was unlikely, as it was denied in the original trial and 'reviewed' by Stefanoni's boss. Now there is going to be that review.

So like Justianian, you also think that those who disagree with you are sub-human. Ok, got that.

As for the new review of the DNA evidence, what makes you think these new scientists are of a different mind-set than Stefanoni? Aren't they also in Rome, her home base? I'm sure the Italian DNA expert club is pretty small so it makes sense she probably knows these two professionally.

I don't think this has anything to do with Italians being inherently incompetent and corrupt, but simply human beings in dysfunctional systems.

How specifically is the Italian judicial system dysfunctional? On what level? In Perugia or the entire nation?

Look at what really started this mess, the interrogation on November fifth, for which there are no tapes, and the official excuse being that until 1:45 she was a 'witness,' and they just 'forgot' to turn on the cameras afterward, as they were so busy preparing to arrest Patrick.

You put the word forgot in quotes. Did they intentionally not record this?

The first happens because the Italian system, with the best intentions to protect the rights of the accused, has laws that prevent police interrogating suspects without a lawyer present. However, that can't really work, the police have to take bad guys off the street, and one of their tools is interrogating suspects and producing confessions. No lawyer is going to allow the police to ask his client anything that might incriminate them, thus the police have to pretend that lawyers aren't available, or that it will go worse for the person if they call a lawyer etc, like what happened in this case.

How is this any different than what goes on in the U.S?

Also there's no real oversight of police

Evidence?

....in fact to even breath a word in court suggesting police misconduct can get years slapped on your sentence, as has happened here.

No, that's not what happened here. If that was the case why isn't Frank in the slammer?

...it appears police can get a 'Dirty Harry' mentality in the assumption that whatever they do is for the greater good, and there's basically no prospect of punishment. Think of all the lies and/or misstatements in this case by authorities, the computers fried, the outright perjuries in court--and there's absolutely no consequences for any of that.

They are lies and misstaments in your opinion.
 
Actually, it is my understanding that Napoleoni will be testifying for the prosecution on some other bar owners that the cops spoke to that were open that night, never mind the no shuttle buses, and other possibilities with "other" buses in the city. It should be entertaining to see how far she will stretch this.

Well we know there was at least one disco open that night, the one Rudy was at.
 
I was kidding, Alt! :)

I was trying to say humorously that it would be self-preservation as now people would be looking at them with skepticism. In the original trial Monica Napoleoni goes in there and tells a story about the interrogation that conflicts completely with the known facts, but gets away with it because the defense can't bring up the first 'statement' from the interrogation--which would show she was lying--as it had been thrown out by the Supreme Court, and the press was all going along for the ride. I don't think they could get away with that now.

They think they can, and they are calling the shots, at least for now.

I have followed too many of these cases in the US. I see how these people stick together, and back each other up no matter what. It takes years of bad publicity and increasingly hostile public opinion to get someone to intervene. The West Memphis Three have been in prison for the better part of 20 years, with every court in Arkansas saying that the trial was fair, when in fact it was a sham, and the evidence was overwhelming, when in fact it was nonexistent.

But, with this case we have the advantage that it has generated more publicity than any wrongful conviction since Dreyfus. The authorities will lose, in the end, no matter how desperately they fight. It's such a waste... there are no winners, just mounting losses on all sides. It's like a poker game where everyone bets on every card, everyone calls every bet, and sometimes the bets get raised and everyone calls the raises, but all the money goes into a burning fireplace instead of a pot on the table. Everyone walks away from the game broke and defeated.
 
But, with this case we have the advantage that it has generated more publicity than any wrongful conviction since Dreyfus.

Oh really? Since Meryl Streep is too old to play Amanda, is she playing Edda Mellas in the next movie?

The authorities will lose, in the end, no matter how desperately they fight.

How could you possibly think this based on your beliefs about the "Italian system"?
 
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Population of California: 33,961,664
Population of Italy: 58,126,212

Land Area of Italy: 301,230 km2
Land Area of California: 423,970 km2

GNP of Italy: $1,260
GSP of California: $1.85 trillion

We should have California attack Italy.
 
Well we know there was at least one disco open that night, the one Rudy was at.

Do you think that special shuttle buses ran to Domus? You do know it's in the centre of Perugia, don't you....?

All the out-of-town discos were closed on Thursday 1st November 2007. And as such, there were no shuttle buses at all running that night. That is a fact, and it will be established beyond all doubt in the appeal. I still can't believe that the defence teams weren't competent enough to have established this fact in the first trial - at a stroke, it destroys Curatolo's credibility and reliability, since he was unequivocal in his testimony that the buses he saw on the "night in question" were the special disco buses. He left no wiggle room in his original testimony.

Incidentally, Curatolo also claims he saw people in costumes and masks on the same night. We then had ludicrous (and frankly laughable) claims from some highly-invested bloke that it was common to see people wandering round Perugia on the night after Halloween still wearing costumes and masks. This is either delusional or a flat-out lie. 1st November is a fairly solemn holiday in Italy, and I can guarantee that there would be no fancy dress parties - especially since all the costume parties are held on Halloween night, and everyone can go to them since the following day is a public holiday. If anyone feels like going to Perugia on 31st October and 1st November this year (mentioning no names...), they will not see anyone in costumes and masks wandering around on the evening/night of 1st November.
 
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I didn't express an opinion as to whether he would have panicked. I explained why I think the physical evidence shows he disrobed Meredith after cutting her throat.

Well, you said that you didn't believe for a second that Guede would've grabbed the towels to staunch the bleeding. I was just saying that it's quite possible that he panicked, and that this could make it plausible that he fetched the towels for the reasons he states.

Guede's background is generally consistent with this kind of crime. But I think the most accurate way to determine what happened is to look at the details of the crime scene.

Yes, Guede was certainly putting himself in situations where violence became a possibility - breaking into houses either armed with a knife or finding a knife once inside - and was therefore far more likely to carry out this sort of crime than either Amanda or Raffaele. The fact remains though that he'd never been involved in any serious violent crime or sexual assault previously. My point on this was to suggest that his lack of experience with this type of crime and the fact he obviously didn't break into the house intending to kill anyone could explain why he panicked, if he did.

It's possible that it was on the floor, but she was moved so that her body was on top of it, and it was off center in such a way that her body ended up on the far side of the pillow relative to the spot where she collapsed. It seems clear that someone deliberately put it under her buttocks.

What is your theory as to the sequence of events?

If we accept that the pillow was already on the floor prior to the injuries, I don't agree that it's clear that it was then deliberately placed beneath her. Here are pictures of the footprints on the pillow (left, obviously) and the location of the pillow in the room, taken from Vinci's report:

picture.php


From what you say, the prints are in the area which would have been covered by Meredith's body; it also looks as if Guede walked over the pillow several times, back and forth. This seems like a strong indication that it was already on the floor prior to the injuries, rather than having been deliberately taken from the bed to use during a sexual assault. You could argue that the fact Meredith was lying on the left side of it (further from where she was lying originally) indicates it was deliberately placed, but then I could equally argue that it certainly doesn't look deliberately placed, not being positioned centrally and only one half of it lying beneath her. Given that the pillow was probably already on the floor, the evidence to suggest it was placed deliberately is pretty inconclusive.

There's a further problem with the shoe prints, and the fact Meredith's body was lying on top of them. It's been argued that the reason Guede didn't leave shoe prints on the way into the bathroom is because he hadn't stepped on blood at that point, but did so just before he left, yet the prints on the pillow show that he stepped in blood before Meredith was turned onto her back. I've thought previously that he took off his shoes in the bedroom and that this explains the bare footprint in the bathroom. However, I wonder whether another possibility might be that Meredith was lying on her side for a while initially, and that it was only at a later point that she was moved onto her back and covered with the duvet, shortly before Guede left. This could explain why one of the towels - perhaps initially lying at her side - was found beneath her.

In terms of my 'theory' as to the sequence of events, well, I've already mentioned a few things, but a couple more points: first, I think the attack was more prolonged than the 5-10 minutes that's been suggested, mainly because Guede (assuming he was alone) was likely still in the house at 10 p.m.: I can't square this with an assault that was over at about 9:10 p.m. I think it was probably an attack which escalated gradually over, let's say, 30-40 minutes, maybe a bit less, rather than Guede suddenly deciding to rape and kill a resident because he couldn't get out of the house. Due to the lack of blood on the back strap of the bra, together with the spots of blood on the front of it, I think the injuries were made as he struggled to remove the bra (she was probably mostly undressed at this stage). Perhaps the fact he would've had to take the knife from her neck momentarily encouraged Meredith to fight back, and it was in this struggle to regain control that Guede made the injuries. I've said that I believe Guede may have panicked on seeing how serious the injuries were, and that he was telling the truth about the towels; however, I think the third towel (the one on the bed) was used by Guede to clean himself up. This paragraph/post is getting ridiculously long - but at any rate those are a few points on what I think happened.
 
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Dear All

I have been called naive. However, the title of this blog is “Discussion of the Amanda Knox case”. Unlike Injustice In Perugia site which is dedicated and run by people who believe that Amanda and Raffaele innocence this site as far as I can determine has no position either way it is an open forum, therefore, anyone with an interest in this case should be able to post their views freely.
 
Do you think that special shuttle buses ran to Domus? Because if you do, you know even less about this case than I thought :D

I know that Domus is within the city. I guess Bruce Fisher knows even less about this case than I do, as he states on his website, "all of the discos were closed". There were discos open that night. People who were on one side of the city may have taken a bus to go to Domus or the other discos that were open.
 
Dear All

I have been called naive. However, the title of this blog is “Discussion of the Amanda Knox case”. Unlike Injustice In Perugia site which is dedicated and run by people who believe that Amanda and Raffaele innocence this site as far as I can determine has no position either way it is an open forum, therefore, anyone with an interest in this case should be able to post their views freely.

And they do as long as the follow the JREF posting rules.
 
I know that Domus is within the city. I guess Bruce Fisher knows even less about this case than I do, as he states on his website, "all of the discos were closed". There were discos open that night. People who were on one side of the city may have taken a bus to go to Domus or the other discos that were open.

Then these people have to rely on regular public transport. Domus does not lay on any special buses to bring in people who happen to live some way away from it. Curatolo very specifically referred to the special shuttle buses taking people to the large out-of-town clubs. All the large out-of-town clubs were closed that night. Therefore there were no such buses that night. Therefore Curatolo is wrong. Therefore his testimony is inherently unreliable. End of story.
 
Dear All

I have been called naive. However, the title of this blog is “Discussion of the Amanda Knox case”. Unlike Injustice In Perugia site which is dedicated and run by people who believe that Amanda and Raffaele innocence this site as far as I can determine has no position either way it is an open forum, therefore, anyone with an interest in this case should be able to post their views freely.

I appreciate you posting here. I believe you are leaning towards guilt but not fully convinced. It is difficult being in a middle ground position. You get it from the side of innocence as well as to a lesser degree the other side. IIP maintains a general forum where opinions from both sides are allowed. View from Wilmington seems to allow both sides as well as I made many posts there even when I was leaning towards the side of guilt.
 
Then these people have to rely on regular public transport. Domus does not lay on any special buses to bring in people who happen to live some way away from it. Curatolo very specifically referred to the special shuttle buses taking people to the large out-of-town clubs. All the large out-of-town clubs were closed that night. Therefore there were no such buses that night. Therefore Curatolo is wrong. Therefore his testimony is inherently unreliable. End of story.

Does anyone have any photos of: the disco buses, the city buses and the tourist buses? The tourist bus schedules and locations of pickups/dropoffs are online but I don't read Italian.
 
Does anyone have any photos of: the disco buses, the city buses and the tourist buses? The tourist bus schedules and locations of pickups/dropoffs are online but I don't read Italian.

IIRC the disco buses are more of the Shuttle Van type and both the City and Tourist buses much larger in size.
 
let the debate continue

Dear All

I have been called naive. However, the title of this blog is “Discussion of the Amanda Knox case”. Unlike Injustice In Perugia site which is dedicated and run by people who believe that Amanda and Raffaele innocence this site as far as I can determine has no position either way it is an open forum, therefore, anyone with an interest in this case should be able to post their views freely.

CoulsdonUK,

This site is one of several (Injustice in Perugia's general forum and View from Wilmington are two others, as RoseMontague pointed out), where pro-guilt and pro-innocence commenters can meet on equal terms. I would regret saying anything that might have made you feel as if your opinion is not welcome here.
 
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my beef is with Mr. Maresca, not Mr. Kercher

John Kercher is a victim. It's clear from reading his Mirror article where he repeats Massei nonsenses, and even some old misinformation that didn't make it to the report. He's being fed lies.
If his lawyer was honest, he would inform him how shaky the case against AK and RS is. He would explain to him the weakness of evidence and told him that they are most probably innocent and one or the other appeal will make them free.

Katody Matrass,

I agree. I was probably overly harsh in my previous assessment of Mr. Kercher's hiring Mr. Maresca. Although my opinion of Mr. Maresca is very low, I am more hesitant than I was to assign any culpability for his actions to Mr. Kercher.
 
CoulsdonUK,

This site is one of several (Injustice in Perugia and View from Wilmington are two others, as RoseMontague pointed out), where pro-guilt and pro-innocence commenters can meet on equal terms. I would regret saying that might have made you feel as if your opinion is not welcome here.

That was not my intention. Those that know me understand that I enjoy a civil debate from both sides.
 
What are these tourist buses of which you speak? Who operates them? Is there a website?

If you search for day trips out of Perugia there are many sites and schedules, difficult to figure out if you don't read Italain. The sites in English mostly link to links in Italian.
 
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