Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

He is being scammed. They all are being scammed. I thought all yall realized that. Italian courts at work. Get the familys,( kercher's, patrick's, knox's,sollecito's,) and police to hire lawyers to represent everyone. Appeal to the tabloids, tell the court they did this crime and have proof and never show it. Find some fake witnesses, get the judge to overrule the supreme court and get the conviction. Milk everyone for more money at the second trial and if they are lucky they might even be able to milk them again at the supreme court. File slander charges that will get tossed, but someone still has to hire lawyers. Yet when its all said and done, the poor Italian people will pay for knox and sollecito's imprisonment, and the kerchers will end up bankrupt. Then a few years later file charges again against knox/sollecito, rinse and repeat.

You have a mighty high opinion of the Italian Court system! It may even be higher than mine!



You make a very good point to those who might think any criticism of the Italian system comes from conceit: why would we care otherwise? After all we don't have to live with it. It's the Italian people that have to pay the ultimate price here.

Though I wonder if the conviction gets overturned and Knox returns to the states will Italy be able to extradite her back if they refile charges. Since afterall, USA has double jeopardy laws. The reason I mention this is because the US extradition treaties have statute of limitations for both countries and double jeopardy as part of the treaties. It also has to be a crime in both countries. So they can't extradite Americans for slander. If the murder/rape gets overturned, Italy will probably catch a ton of diplomatic heat if the rest of the charges are not thrown out.

I don't think they'd be able to extradite her now, being as they couldn't provide any evidence to support their request. DNA 'evidence' that there's no reason to think would be allowed in any other court in the world would hardly qualify. Even friendly countries with long-standing extradition treaties don't just hand people over without evidence. Look at the case of Rudy Guede in Germany: despite Germany and Italy being NATO allies and fellow EU members, Germany required the Italian authorities to produce the fingerprint from the handprint he left in Meredith's room before they would extradite him despite Italian authorities tipping them off.

I sometimes wonder if one of the reasons for that slander charge is so Amanda cannot sue those police and prosecutors into bankruptcy when she is eventually exonerated.

 

[Kaosium]

But why hasn't JK noticed this scam? Has JK made too large an investment in a lawyer that is perhaps nothing more than an ambulance chaser. Did he think that because he was a victim of such a tragedy that nobody would bilk him?

If the latter is the case, then JK is a double victim. However, it was alleged that he works for a tabloid (generally considered scam artists). Is he so blinded by all the liars around him that he can't understand the truth. Is he one of those people that think the majority opinion is the truth?

It looks to me like he's surrounded by people who think Amanda Knox is guilty as sin, and that all those who think otherwise are being brainwashed by a PR campaign that he thus finds personally offensive.

Do you suppose there are others like that?

 

[Chris C]

I doubt Frank ever had the opportunity to handle, or even closely visually inspect, the key piece of evidence in a murder trial. He is a blogger and was simply a member of the audience at trial. Also when it was shown at trial wasn't it in a plastic evidence bag?

I'm in agreement with RoseMontague that the knife was clean. The latest photos do not seem to have very good color rendition. In fact the blade even looks yellowish like bronze or brass, when in fact it is stainless steel as can be clearly seen in other photos. The dark part near the handle looks like a reflection to me too and the fact that there may be seen a 'dirtier' part near the actual handle can be explained by the difficulty in normal cleaning to get right into this corner. I see the same on the knives in my knife block.
I do not think they will find anything when they take this knife apart. Wasn't a key argument refuting it's use that the wound shows it couldn't have been inserted to its full depth given the shallower depth of the wound?

too low
too low
too low
too low

I'm sure you get the point. Yet if there is something visible to the naked eye in the corner of the blade because it was hard to get out, then that sample has to be bigger than the sample off the blade. It took a microscope to find the sample with Kerchers supposed dna and no proof it ever existed. Yet the edge of the blade and handle area was never scraped or tested.

 

[Justinian2]

You have a mighty high opinion of the Italian Court system! It may even be higher than mine!



[...]

I sometimes wonder if one of the reasons for that slander charge is so Amanda cannot sue those police and prosecutors into bankruptcy when she is eventually exonerated.

If you're a cold blooded cop or prosecutor, it serves multiple purposes.

1.) It strategically takes money and resources from the enemy (AK and RS).
2.) It's like carpet bombing the enemy.
3.) If AK is found innocent of the murder charge, she can be released from jail having fufilled her obligation for slander. I doubt that she'd want to return to Italy to fight the slander charge.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The defense requested that the DNA used to CONVICT was given an independent analysis. If THAT DNA is thrown out so is the evidence. They have NO reason to request that the knife be taken apart. What would that prove anyway? If there is not blood or DNA under the handle it doesn't prove that the knife wasn't used, just that it didn't get under the handle. If the anaylsis comes back and rejects Stefanoni's results I could then see the prosecution at that point requesting testing for DNA under the knife handle in hopes of finding evidence (which they should have done anyway). I don't think this was a mistake by the defense at all. I also think they were right not to protest the knife handle being opened. They have confidence it isn't the weapon.

If I may, your post assumes a certain result which might prove correct but it is speculation at this stage as the re-analysis is not completed. In the spirit of speculation I pose a possible scenario what if the knife analysis is thrown out but the bra clasp upheld?

It is also not the defence's job to do the prosecution's job !!!

Agreed, goes both ways.

What you are saying seems like once again they are guilty until poven innocent. Are you equally hard on the prosecution?

The scope of my posts on this topic were purely in the context of providing an explanation of the prosecutions protest, I have not written anything relating to the outcome of the appeal simply because I do not know.

Why didn't THEY test under the handle right away? Why did Stefanoni continue to test after receiving a 'too low' reading. She stopped testing on other things when she got that result ! How come they haven't turned over the electonic files and control tests?

In short I don’t know the answer to these questions

The defense asked for independent analysis in the first trial. Why was it denied ??? How does Amanda's DNA on the handle exist if the knife tested negative for blood? Her DNA could not have been placed there during the attack.

I do not know the answer to these questions, hopefully the independent analysis will answer these questions.

 

[Dan O.]

If I may, your post assumes a certain result which might prove correct but it is speculation at this stage as the re-analysis is not completed. In the spirit of speculation I pose a possible scenario what if the knife analysis is thrown out but the bra clasp upheld?

This is where I think the case is heading since none of those espousing guilt will accept any natural explanation for the clasp DNA. What happens if the knife is thrown out, the bra clasp is upheld and the defense claim of the computer logs is upheld?

 

[Justinian2]

If I may, your post assumes a certain result which might prove correct but it is speculation at this stage as the re-analysis is not completed. In the spirit of speculation I pose a possible scenario what if the knife analysis is thrown out but the bra clasp upheld?

Agreed, goes both ways.

The scope of my posts on this topic were purely in the context of providing an explanation of the prosecutions protest, I have not written anything relating to the outcome of the appeal simply because I do not know.

In short I don’t know the answer to these questions

I do not know the answer to these questions, hopefully the independent analysis will answer these questions.

Blimey, whot ya say a bit of a bad egg these blokes? Wit their backs to the wall and still takin a backhander up the backdoor to buy a Prince Albert.

Ya gotta love the British!

 

[babycondor]

This is where I think the case is heading since none of those espousing guilt will accept any natural explanation for the clasp DNA. What happens if the knife is thrown out, the bra clasp is upheld and the defense claim of the computer logs is upheld?

Two things:

1. Incriminating evidence decreases

2. Reasonable doubt increases

What happens is what should clearly have happened in the first place: acquittal.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

This is where I think the case is heading since none of those espousing guilt will accept any natural explanation for the clasp DNA. What happens if the knife is thrown out, the bra clasp is upheld and the defense claim of the computer logs is upheld?

Dan O

As I said it was speculation, I remain open minded as the appeal hasn’t really started, but if you wish to conclude my response suggests guilt that is your prerogative.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Blimey, whot ya say a bit of a bad egg these blokes? Wit their backs to the wall and still takin a backhander up the backdoor to buy a Prince Albert.

Ya gotta love the British!

What a wonderful north n south you have, kno what I mean guv?

 

[Justinian2]

What a wonderful north n south you have, kno what I mean guv?

Much appreciated!

Guv, the bra clasp evidence is not much cop fabricated by a bunch of nancies that are also not the brightest crayons in the box.

 

[Alt+F4]

He is being scammed. They all are being scammed. I thought all yall realized that. Italian courts at work. Get the familys,( kercher's, patrick's, knox's,sollecito's,) and police to hire lawyers to represent everyone. Appeal to the tabloids, tell the court they did this crime and have proof and never show it. Find some fake witnesses, get the judge to overrule the supreme court and get the conviction. Milk everyone for more money at the second trial and if they are lucky they might even be able to milk them again at the supreme court. File slander charges that will get tossed, but someone still has to hire lawyers. Yet when its all said and done, the poor Italian people will pay for knox and sollecito's imprisonment, and the kerchers will end up bankrupt. Then a few years later file charges again against knox/sollecito, rinse and repeat.

Though I wonder if the conviction gets overturned...

Why would you even consider that her conviction would be overturned after what you wrote in the first paragraph?

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Much appreciated!

Guv, the bra clasp evidence is not much cop fabricated by a bunch of nancies that are also not the brightest crayons in the box.

Putting the cockney rhyming slang to one side; how can any of us at this early stage know what the outcome of the re-analysis let alone appeal will be?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I doubt Frank ever had the opportunity to handle, or even closely visually inspect, the key piece of evidence in a murder trial. He is a blogger and was simply a member of the audience at trial. Also when it was shown at trial wasn't it in a plastic evidence bag?

I'm in agreement with RoseMontague that the knife was clean. The latest photos do not seem to have very good color rendition. In fact the blade even looks yellowish like bronze or brass, when in fact it is stainless steel as can be clearly seen in other photos. The dark part near the handle looks like a reflection to me too and the fact that there may be seen a 'dirtier' part near the actual handle can be explained by the difficulty in normal cleaning to get right into this corner. I see the same on the knives in my knife block.

I do not think they will find anything when they take this knife apart. Wasn't a key argument refuting it's use that the wound shows it couldn't have been inserted to its full depth given the shallower depth of the wound?

Definitely. It would have gone all the way through her neck had it been plunged in up to the hilt. You have to hypothesize someone sticking this knife halfway in to the neck and then inflicting a 3-inch cut through cartilage and muscle, on a struggling victim, while holding the far end of a lever arm. This knife simply is not plausible as the murder weapon, or as one of multiple murder weapons.

BTW, I have posted a video of the Greg Hampikian interview on NW nights, with visual aids to accompany Greg's comments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vEFPZgW9HA

He mis-spoke on a couple of details - it was the closet door and mattress that were removed, rather than the closet and bed - but his overall analysis is extremely cogent, including this summary:

"You have to look at the totality of the evidence. Let the evidence drive the theory of the crime. You can't just stick with a gut feeling that's been proven wrong and then try to find some scrap of evidence to protect that theory. That's what I think happened."

 

[el buscador]

The pillow in the closet photo would be from Dec. 18th.

Is it the pillow that was under Meredith? If not, where did this pillow come from? If so, why was the pillow not collected earlier? If so, how did the police collect rudy's palm print from the pillowcase? Also, if this is a photo from Dec. 18, why does the room look completely different from the bra clasp video?

I'm sure there are reasonable explanations for these questions and I should probably know them since I have followed this case for the past couple of years, but I am really confused right now.

 

[Kaosium]

Why would you even consider that her conviction would be overturned after what you wrote in the first paragraph?

For the same reason cockroaches scatter when you turn on the light.

 

[Alt+F4]

For the same reason cockroaches scatter when you turn on the light.

And just who do you think is going to turn on that light? Pages and pages on this thread on how incompetent and corrupt the Italians are, so there is no logical reason to think that the appeal should turn out differently than the original trial.

 

[Kaosium]

And just who do you think is going to turn on that light? Pages and pages on this thread on how incompetent and corrupt the Italians are, so there is no logical reason to think that the appeal should turn out differently than the original trial.

I think the light has been turned on, and we're seeing the cockroaches scattering as we speak. I recall when reading about this that there were those who thought the possibility of the bra clasp and murder knife actually being subjected to an independent review was unlikely, as it was denied in the original trial and 'reviewed' by Stefanoni's boss. Now there is going to be that review.

I don't think this has anything to do with Italians being inherently incompetent and corrupt, but simply human beings in dysfunctional systems. Look at what really started this mess, the interrogation on November fifth, for which there are no tapes, and the official excuse being that until 1:45 she was a 'witness,' and they just 'forgot' to turn on the cameras afterward, as they were so busy preparing to arrest Patrick.

The first happens because the Italian system, with the best intentions to protect the rights of the accused, has laws that prevent police interrogating suspects without a lawyer present. However, that can't really work, the police have to take bad guys off the street, and one of their tools is interrogating suspects and producing confessions. No lawyer is going to allow the police to ask his client anything that might incriminate them, thus the police have to pretend that lawyers aren't available, or that it will go worse for the person if they call a lawyer etc, like what happened in this case. I can dig up that advisory that confirms that, as I just came across it looking for that post that linked Frank's conversation with Curatolo, it's at about page 360 of the previous thread.

Also there's no real oversight of police, in fact to even breath a word in court suggesting police misconduct can get years slapped on your sentence, as has happened here. As a result, it appears police can get a 'Dirty Harry' mentality in the assumption that whatever they do is for the greater good, and there's basically no prospect of punishment. Think of all the lies and/or misstatements in this case by authorities, the computers fried, the outright perjuries in court--and there's absolutely no consequences for any of that.

 

[Kaosium]

Gee, where have we heard rhetoric like this before? Hmmmm.....those who disagree with a particular mindset are bugs to be stomped on, destroyed...they are less than human.

I was kidding, Alt!

I was trying to say humorously that it would be self-preservation as now people would be looking at them with skepticism. In the original trial Monica Napoleoni goes in there and tells a story about the interrogation that conflicts completely with the known facts, but gets away with it because the defense can't bring up the first 'statement' from the interrogation--which would show she was lying--as it had been thrown out by the Supreme Court, and the press was all going along for the ride. I don't think they could get away with that now.

 

[Fine]

The police_video_november_3_2007 at time 2:18:49 and again at time 2:19:39, shortly after Meredith's body has been removed, we see the pillow with the closest corner in the same position but the pillow is rotated about 30º counter clockwise.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=4270[/qimg]


ETA: At 2:24:42 the pillow has been lifted to reveal the bra clasp. The next view is 12:40:00 and the pillow has been repositioned. to where it is seen in the news clip.

_______________________

Thanks for posting another photograph of the pillow, Dan. The bra clasp is pretty much where you'd expect it to be found, had Meredith been wearing the bra while on her back (as illustrated by the aspirated blood drops). So if the bra clasp had been found under Meredith's shoulders, and the pillow was on top of the bra clasp..........wouldn't that put the pillow under her shoulders, instead of under her hips???

///