Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Charlie Wilkes]

That Guede would not have panicked after fatally injuring Meredith is simply your own opinion.

I didn't express an opinion as to whether he would have panicked. I explained why I think the physical evidence shows he disrobed Meredith after cutting her throat.

To me, it seems at least as likely that he would have reacted in that way as that he would have recognized he'd just fatally wounded someone but decided to continue with the sexual assault regardless, even stopping to arrange the scene beforehand. If Amanda and Raffaele's backgrounds are relevant, then Guede's history has to be equally considered, and he had no real prior history of violence or sexual assault.

Guede's background is generally consistent with this kind of crime. But I think the most accurate way to determine what happened is to look at the details of the crime scene.

In this case he entered the house as a petty thief, looking for rent money. That he would've been shocked at the sudden realization he'd probably just killed someone is hardly out of the question, IMO. As I said before, there seems no plausible explanation for the position of the towels, other than that stated by Guede. And if they had been used in an attempt to stop the bleeding, I see no reason it would be so terribly unlikely to find them blood-soaked and left next to or near her body.

As regards the pillow, this seems quite important since Massei's argument that this was used to 'facilitate the sexual assault' seems the only real evidence the sexual assault occurred after the stabbing. I found this argument a bit unconvincing from the start: it wouldn't be an easy task to lift Meredith's lower body to deliberately place the pillow there, and I can't see that it would make a manual assault so very much easier. If Guede were so carried away that he sexually assaulted her after fatally stabbing her, I think he would just have done it, not stopped to arrange the scene first.

I think that the pillow - together with the quilt and everything that had been on the bed - may have already been on the floor as a result of the struggle that happened near the bed. The knife print that was probably made shortly after the stabbing (the knife having still been bloody enough to make a recognizable print) was made on the bed sheet, not on the duvet, meaning the duvet was not on the bed at this stage. And as el buscador noted, there are multiple shoe prints on the pillow (one in the middle of it) which are quite difficult to explain if Guede picked up the pillow from the bed and placed it deliberately beneath Meredith. On the other hand, they are easy to explain if the pillow was already on the floor.

It's possible that it was on the floor, but she was moved so that her body was on top of it, and it was off center in such a way that her body ended up on the far side of the pillow relative to the spot where she collapsed. It seems clear that someone deliberately put it under her buttocks.

What is your theory as to the sequence of events?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The police_video_november_3_2007 at time 2:18:49 and again at time 2:19:39, shortly after Meredith's body has been removed, we see the pillow with the closest corner in the same position but the pillow is rotated about 30º counter clockwise.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=4270[/qimg]

In that photo, the pillow is in the same spot, and angled the same way that it was when it was underneath her body. She was lying at an angle so her buttocks covered the upper left-hand quadrant of the pillow.

 

[Onofarar]

Chris,

When I mentioned the laundry hamper, I meant that is what it was pulled out of on Dec 18th. The forensic team didn't collect it until that date and deemed it appropriate to store it for safe keeping in the laundry hamper until then.

On Dec 18th a whitesuit starts digging through the laundry hamper, pulls it out, looks at it a second and then throws in the floor by the rug where you will see several photos of it. It isn't until later that one of them decides to collect it as evidence.

For **** sake ! This is the jacket MK was wearing when attacked and they treated it like this !

Aah the crack forensic team in action!
"Medals all around"
Really

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I certainly agree that the crime can be reconstructed within certain limits. My point is that putting forward Hendry's reconstruction as the only plausible one is going beyond the level of certainty we can have; there is room for discussion on many of the specific points he raises, such as whether the bra was cut/torn, whether that happened before/after the injuries and whether the jacket had been removed at that point. That's not to say there's anything wrong with putting forward a more specific theory, and it's not even to say that Hendry is wrong, though I disagree with aspects of his analysis. But I think we should be cautious about putting forward one theory as the near absolute truth - after all, it's this over-interpretation of ambiguous evidence which makes Massei's arguments so flawed.

There is no comparison as far as I'm concerned. Hendry started with the photos and used them to figure out what happened. Massei started with a conclusion and then looked for elements of the crime scene that he could interpret in a way that supported his conclusion.

Thanks for uploading the photos. However, I see nothing in the pictures which show conclusively that the same blood stains could not have been made simply by the jacket lying in a pool of blood; after all, there's blood all over the jacket including on the back, the sleeve and the bottom of it. It's unlikely all of that blood got there because Meredith was wearing it. Nor can I see anything to show she was dragged using the jacket, although it is an interesting theory. There are no bloody fingerprints or handprints anywhere on it that I can see, which I think there would be had Guede grabbed it immediately after the wounds were made.

I have already agreed that the evidence on this point is not conclusive. But what is most likely? The jacket collar is heavily soaked with blood. The jacket was found wadded up on the floor, between the spot where the victim collapsed and where her body was found. A trace of Guede's DNA was found on one of the jacket sleeves.

There also seem to be some indications that the jacket was removed before the stabbing: the lack of blood on the back of the bra which suggest it was cut prior to the injuries (the same would apply if it was torn, though I don't believe it was) and the likelihood therefore that her jacket had already been removed and the T-shirts lifted by this stage, in order that the bra strap could be cut.

Hendry's reconstruction accounts for aspirated blood on the cups of the bra, on Merediths' bare breasts, and on the doors and side of the wardrobe. That aspiration would have taken place for only a few minutes, between the time the fatal wound was inflicted and the time Meredith ceased to breathe. It may be that there is another plausible scenario that fits all that together, but I haven't seen one or been able to think of one.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm starting to wonder about the 'changing stories' of the police in Perugia. The 'extremely clean' knife that obviously wasn't, the chick-chat interrogation turned twelve cop eligible calunnia charge, and perhaps the disco-city-tourist buses if that checks out when I dig up that article of Frank's.

How many times did we hear of the 'changing stories' of Raffaele and Amanda?

Payback is a bitch.

Found it! Thus it appears Curatolo's story about the buses goes from the disco buses originally, to telling Frank that he actually mixed them up with the city buses, which obviously won't work due to the size discrepancy, to finally tourist buses.

If anyone ever wonders why I'm interested in movies about this case, it is so stuff like this stands out and the prosecution and everyone involved in this railroading receives precisely the 'reward' it has so richly earned, which is:

"Shame and eternal shame, nothing but shame!"

"November 9, 2010 6:30 AM
Anonymous Frank Sfarzo said...

I can confirm that the big discotheques are closed on November 1st, and there weren't buses.
As is natural, since the discotheques work on the pre-holiday, not on the holiday, and to be filled they need a town full of students, not with the 80% of them gone home.
But Sollecito's team will bring documentation for it.

Btw, I remember to have asked Toto, at the beginning, why he remembered the masks and didn't remember the buses. He thought that he HAD to remember the opposite, so at the trial he didn't mention the masks but he mentioned the buses.

So, more than one year after our previous talk I congratulated to him for his testimony and I asked him why he remembered the buses.
At that point he understood that the buses were wrong too (but too late). And he answered that he was confused with the city buses....

But all this is useless. The truth is that people believe what they want to believe..."

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...63183670383910

 

[Kaosium]

There is no comparison as far as I'm concerned. Hendry started with the photos and used them to figure out what happened. Massei started with a conclusion and then looked for elements of the crime scene that he could interpret in a way that supported his conclusion.

The latter being impossible as he didn't introduce the element necessary to make his fantasy even remotely plausible: the levitating hazmat suits that must have been worn by Amanda and Raffaele at the crime scene. Ron Hendry and others who do detailed reconstructions must work with the evidence and in some cases that might lead to honest disagreements on things like how the bra clasp became detached. However everything in all of those disputes is due to different interpretations of evidence in which it seems to me reasonable people can come to varying conclusions.

Massei's on the other hand is simply made up out of whole cloth. In my mind it's far worse than simply looking for something to support a 'conclusion' as outside the DNA on the bra clasp there is absolutely nothing to indicate Raffaele was even there, and it takes virtually impossible conditions to pretend that knife ever left the drawer that night. He conjures a fantasy that for much of it has utterly nothing to support it, outside at one point Raffaele must come in contact with the bra clasp and Amanda is wielding a knife based on the most specious of probabilities one could possibly imagine.

ETA: When going over this initially it occurred to me that that it was much simpler to put Amanda in that room without the knife, being as it comes with virtually impossible conditions for actually being the murder weapon. Which became especially ironic when I realized that the only reason to even think Amanda was in that room was in fact something that lowered the probability she actually was.

Full link for my post above:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7877520352483689941&postID=4395963183670383910

 

[RoseMontague]

You are not the first to ask.

On the first image I also saw the reflection of the handle. On the reverse side however I made this observation:

There is a little scum on the blade near the handle where a cleaning rag would have trouble reaching but would be easy if you tried simply by pushing a corner or folded edge of the rag into it.

What appears to be vertical scratches on the blade could be the boundary where the cleaning rag met the scum. I would guess that this area of the blade was never tested for DNA unless these are pre-testing photos.​

I also saw what appeared to be a shadow line or crack between the blade and the handle (it's difficult to say for sure given the angle of this view). If there is any opening here, blood would be sucked up into the crack by osmosis and would be practically impossible to clean out.

Thinking on the paranoid side, this would be an ideal scenario for tampering with the evidence. A trace finding is left on the blade that can be sold to a jury but offers plausible deniability as contamination if the defendant has an airtight alibi. The real evidence is planted inside the handle where it can be exposed when the knife is reexamined on appeal. The prosecutor however needs to insure that there is no alibi before the knife is fully examined or the gambit will be exposed.

Thanks Dan O. I was thinking the dark area was a possible reflection. I must be in the minority thinking that this dirty knife is not so dirty after all. I do see something that looks like some type of material in that crevice but could it possibly be the old glue that keeps the handle from coming off the blade? I guess I need to know the actual manufacturing technique on this one and I am having trouble getting a clear picture of how they are put together.

 

[RoseMontague]

Frank has indicated in the comments of his post that the Kerchers are paying Maresca's bill and not the Italian government.

 

[Kaosium]

Thanks Dan O. I was thinking the dark area was a possible reflection. I must be in the minority thinking that this dirty knife is not so dirty after all. I do see something that looks like some type of material in that crevice but could it possibly be the old glue that keeps the handle from coming off the blade? I guess I need to know the actual manufacturing technique on this one and I am having trouble getting a clear picture of how they are put together.

Considering the evidence in totality, it appears to me more plausible that the knife was in fact just stained, and not actually dirty. Starting with why would Amanda and/or Raffaele put away a dirty knife, then on to it being described as "extremely clean," and then no one on the defense screaming to high heaven the knife either hadn't been washed, or had gotten dirty in the process of finding a handful of picograms of Meredith's DNA on it.

I can conjure a string of tenuous scenarios to explain the above, but I wouldn't want to flatter Massei with imitation.

 

[Kaosium]

Frank has indicated in the comments of his post that the Kerchers are paying Maresca's bill and not the Italian government.

I wonder if Maresca and Col. Garofano have any connections preceding this case? If he is in fact a top lawyer, and he's represented victims before, it wouldn't be implausible. Think of what might have happened, the murder occurs and initial reports are extremely damning to Amanda and Raffaele as can be noted by a cursory review of early reports of the crime. Maresca is hired and represents the Kercher's in the initial case. I'm not sure when Col. Garofano becomes involved, but at some point he does and goes on to contribute to "Darkness Descending."

Perhaps realizing the case will attract criticism, Maresca works with Garofano to come up with an explanation that while the court might have gotten some details wrong, that is inherent to the judicial process worldwide, but they did get the conclusion right and employs Garofano's alternate explanation to contest American experts coming forward to refute the evidence in the case.

 

[Justinian2]

delete

 

[Justinian2]

Frank has indicated in the comments of his post that the Kerchers are paying Maresca's bill and not the Italian government.

This post discusses whether JK is engaging in a scam against Amanda and Raffaele with the premise that they are innocent.

There was a show on TV the other night that had actors stage falls in supermarkets. The actor would put water on the floor and then stage a fall. The hidden camera(s) would then follow the shoppers to see if they ratted on the fraudster.

The insurance companies are defrauded out of three billion dollars a year by false claims. The insurance companies usually pay the claims because the courts make defense against a fraudulent attack more costly than the claim. Apparently people are not afraid to perjure themselves in court these days.

John Kercher is a legitimate victim to Guede and perhaps the town and police of Perugia.

But would John Kercher, an honest member of the tabloid community, become a scam artist?

The courts are known to be gullible to scam artists - otherwise the insurance companies wouldn't just pay up.

This post discusses whether JK is engaging in a scam against Amanda and Raffaele with the premise that they are innocent.

 

[Justinian2]

I wonder if Maresca and Col. Garofano have any connections preceding this case? If he is in fact a top lawyer, and he's represented victims before, it wouldn't be implausible. Think of what might have happened, the murder occurs and initial reports are extremely damning to Amanda and Raffaele as can be noted by a cursory review of early reports of the crime. Maresca is hired and represents the Kercher's in the initial case. I'm not sure when Col. Garofano becomes involved, but at some point he does and goes on to contribute to "Darkness Descending."

Perhaps realizing the case will attract criticism, Maresca works with Garofano to come up with an explanation that while the court might have gotten some details wrong, that is inherent to the judicial process worldwide, but they did get the conclusion right and employs Garofano's alternate explanation to contest American experts coming forward to refute the evidence in the case.

I saw the tabloid link you posted. What a scam! Seems that the front pages of tabloids are scams.

 

[Kaosium]

John Kercher is a legitimate victim to Guede and perhaps the town and police of Perugia.

But would John Kercher, an honest member of the tabloid community, become a scam artist?

The courts are gullible to scam artists.

I would think he'd be far more vulnerable to a scam than anything else, all things considered. However I don't think any of this could have possibly started as a scam of any sort. Consider the link recently re-posted by Halides a few pages back. Initially it appeared that the police had a confession Amanda was at the scene, then her story 'changed,' and she was labeled a congenital liar by the police, who would go on to release information that she was on camera entering the house the night of the murder, a picture showing what appeared to be a blood-soaked bathroom and was hooked up with a druggie boyfriend. All this begins with mistaken and false information provided by the police in Perugia.

 

[Chris C]

I would think he'd be far more vulnerable to a scam than anything else, all things considered. However I don't think any of this could have possibly started as a scam of any sort. Consider the link recently re-posted by Halides a few pages back. Initially it appeared that the police had a confession Amanda was at the scene, then her story 'changed,' and she was labeled a congenital liar by the police, who would go on to release information that she was on camera entering the house the night of the murder, a picture showing what appeared to be a blood-soaked bathroom and was hooked up with a druggie boyfriend. All this begins with mistaken and false information provided by the police in Perugia.

He is being scammed. They all are being scammed. I thought all yall realized that. Italian courts at work. Get the familys,( kercher's, patrick's, knox's,sollecito's,) and police to hire lawyers to represent everyone. Appeal to the tabloids, tell the court they did this crime and have proof and never show it. Find some fake witnesses, get the judge to overrule the supreme court and get the conviction. Milk everyone for more money at the second trial and if they are lucky they might even be able to milk them again at the supreme court. File slander charges that will get tossed, but someone still has to hire lawyers. Yet when its all said and done, the poor Italian people will pay for knox and sollecito's imprisonment, and the kerchers will end up bankrupt. Then a few years later file charges again against knox/sollecito, rinse and repeat.

Though I wonder if the conviction gets overturned and Knox returns to the states will Italy be able to extradite her back if they refile charges. Since afterall, USA has double jeopardy laws. The reason I mention this is because the US extradition treaties have statute of limitations for both countries and double jeopardy as part of the treaties. It also has to be a crime in both countries. So they can't extradite Americans for slander. If the murder/rape gets overturned, Italy will probably catch a ton of diplomatic heat if the rest of the charges are not thrown out.

 

[Katody Matrass]

John Kercher is a victim. It's clear from reading his Mirror article where he repeats Massei nonsenses, and even some old misinformation that didn't make it to the report. He's being fed lies.
If his lawyer was honest, he would inform him how shaky the case against AK and RS is. He would explain to him the weakness of evidence and told him that they are most probably innocent and one or the other appeal will make them free.

 

[Danceme]

Hi Rose, didn't Frank Sfarzo, whose claim this is, see the knife up close and personal? I assumed it was on this basis that he describes it as dirty, not on the photos, which are provided for our sake.

I doubt Frank ever had the opportunity to handle, or even closely visually inspect, the key piece of evidence in a murder trial. He is a blogger and was simply a member of the audience at trial. Also when it was shown at trial wasn't it in a plastic evidence bag?

I'm in agreement with RoseMontague that the knife was clean. The latest photos do not seem to have very good color rendition. In fact the blade even looks yellowish like bronze or brass, when in fact it is stainless steel as can be clearly seen in other photos. The dark part near the handle looks like a reflection to me too and the fact that there may be seen a 'dirtier' part near the actual handle can be explained by the difficulty in normal cleaning to get right into this corner. I see the same on the knives in my knife block.

I do not think they will find anything when they take this knife apart. Wasn't a key argument refuting it's use that the wound shows it couldn't have been inserted to its full depth given the shallower depth of the wound?

 

[Justinian2]

He is being scammed. They all are being scammed. I thought all yall realized that. Italian courts at work. Get the familys,( kercher's, patrick's, knox's,sollecito's,) and police to hire lawyers to represent everyone. Appeal to the tabloids, tell the court they did this crime and have proof and never show it. Find some fake witnesses, get the judge to overrule the supreme court and get the conviction. Milk everyone for more money at the second trial and if they are lucky they might even be able to milk them again at the supreme court. File slander charges that will get tossed, but someone still has to hire lawyers. Yet when its all said and done, the poor Italian people will pay for knox and sollecito's imprisonment, and the kerchers will end up bankrupt. Then a few years later file charges again against knox/sollecito, rinse and repeat.

Though I wonder if the conviction gets overturned and Knox returns to the states will Italy be able to extradite her back if they refile charges. Since afterall, USA has double jeopardy laws. The reason I mention this is because the US extradition treaties have statute of limitations for both countries and double jeopardy as part of the treaties. It also has to be a crime in both countries. So they can't extradite Americans for slander. If the murder/rape gets overturned, Italy will probably catch a ton of diplomatic heat if the rest of the charges are not thrown out.

That's a classic characterization of earth's court systems in general. We vote for lawyers to represent us, so we get what we wish for (be careful what you wish for)

Yes, we are all victims of this scam.

But why hasn't JK noticed this scam? Has JK made too large an investment in a lawyer that is perhaps nothing more than an ambulance chaser. Did he think that because he was a victim of such a tragedy that nobody would bilk him?

If the latter is the case, then JK is a double victim. However, it was alleged that he works for a tabloid (generally considered scam artists). Is he so blinded by all the liars around him that he can't understand the truth. Is he one of those people that think the majority opinion is the truth?

 

[Antony]

Perhaps realizing the case will attract criticism, Maresca works with Garofano to come up with an explanation that while the court might have gotten some details wrong, that is inherent to the judicial process worldwide, but they did get the conclusion right and employs Garofano's alternate explanation to contest American experts coming forward to refute the evidence in the case.

Interesting Sun article - not because it throws any new light on the case, but that it tries to put a guilty spin on what the defence have been saying all along. Of course, Meredith was killed in a "fight" with one person - but that person was Guede, not Amanda.

 

[Antony]

John Kercher is a victim. It's clear from reading his Mirror article where he repeats Massei nonsenses, and even some old misinformation that didn't make it to the report. He's being fed lies.
If his lawyer was honest, he would inform him how shaky the case against AK and RS is. He would explain to him the weakness of evidence and told him that they are most probably innocent and one or the other appeal will make them free.

Exactly - and this is one of the saddest features of the whole tragedy, aside from the direct effects of the loss of Meredith's life and Amanda and Raffaele's freedom. Even the pointless ruin of Patrick Lumumba's business doesn't rank higher than Maresca's exploitation of the Kercher family.