Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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To give you a more substantive answer to your question if I was born in Texas but had a Birth Certificate issued by Rhode Island the certificate would establish that I was born in Texas (because birth certificates show city and state of birth). So if it was required that I be born in Rhode Island to run for office IN Rhode Island the birth certificate would clearly show I was born in Texas and therefor not qualified to run for Rhode Island office. Got it?
It would clearly *say* this, but that doesn't necessarily show it. Certainly, reasonable people will assume that if you show a birth certificate that appears valid and says you were born in a particular place, that's sufficient reason to believe you were in fact born there. Specific laws may make that sufficient proof for specific purposes.

However, if you have evidence to the contrary, you are entitled (under the due process rule against conclusive presumptions if nothing else) to show evidence otherwise. You can rebut the presumption that the birth certificate is accurate by providing evidence that it is not.

In this case, you would likely be able to convince people that you were born in Texas even though you were not, and you might not be able to convince people you were born in Rhode Island even though you were. However, it is not impossible (assuming you had sufficient evidence) to rebut the presumption that your birth certificate is accurate, even if it could be used as sufficient proof to show you were born elsewhere for some purposes.

So far as I know, no specific law or rule states what is sufficient evidence to prove your place of birth for purposes of being eligible to be President of the United States. That specific things are by law sufficient to prove citizenship for other purposes isn't necessarily dispositive. For example, if there was actual evidence Obama's birth certificate was fraudulent, one needn't say "well, the law says a birth certificate is good enough, so it's good enough despite evidence it's factually incorrect".
 
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Okay, next question. Can you show the evidence that all of the following people have meet your two requirements?

Hillary Diane Rodham
John Sidney McCain III
George Walker Bush
John Forbes Kerry
Albert Arnold Gore
William Jefferson Blythe III
George Herbert Walker Bush
Ronald Wilson Reagan

Also, James Danforth Quayle, Richard Bruce Cheney and Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr.
 
...."Ohio Mom Kelley Williams-Bolar Jailed for Sending Kids to Better School District

Kelley Williams-Bolar was convicted of lying about her residency to get her daughters into a better school district. ..."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654


People lie for many reasons.

So you're comparing a woman lying to a school district about her current residency (which can and does change often for most people) to a certified, verified, fully-legal state-issued document describing a place of birth (which does not change and can never be changed)?

That's like triumphantly trying to support an assertion that hundred dollar bills aren't legitimate because someone, somewhere, once tried to forge a grocery store coupon for 50 cents off a roll of toilet paper.
 
...."Ohio Mom Kelley Williams-Bolar Jailed for Sending Kids to Better School District

Kelley Williams-Bolar was convicted of lying about her residency to get her daughters into a better school district. ..."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/ohio-mom-jailed-sending-kids-school-district/story?id=12763654


People lie for many reasons.

You mean, like racist partisan bigots falsely claim to doubt Obama´s eligibility in order to get the black man out of the White House?
 
I'm still waiting to hear why him mom would have been anywhere other than the US when he was born. Then I want to know why she would conspire to make it look like he was born there way back then.
Personally, I'm just slightly curious as to how they could afford the trip in the first place. Some birthers like to shout CONSPIRACY at the fact that Obama went to a private school, despite his family not having a lot of money.

How the hell they would then be able to afford a trip to sub-Saharan Africa in 1961 beats me. Airline travel in that era was NOT cheap.
 
Joseph Robinette Biden? Surely no red-blooded American male can be named Robinette? I bet he's hiding something.
He's also a Jr. So his father (I assume) went through the same thing.


Why do you think Gerald Ford changed his name from Leslie?
 
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Personally, I'm just slightly curious as to how they could afford the trip in the first place. Some birthers like to shout CONSPIRACY at the fact that Obama went to a private school, despite his family not having a lot of money.

How the hell they would then be able to afford a trip to sub-Saharan Africa in 1961 beats me. Airline travel in that era was NOT cheap.

Indeed. Airline travel was not cheap, nor direct. Just think of the difficulties even in 1961 of getting from Hawaii to Kenya and than put a pregnant woman into the situation.

Honalulu to where? Japan or Hong Kong? Hong Kong/Japan to Indonesia? Indonesia to India (Bombay?), India to Kenya?

Maybe Honalulu to LA, LA to New York, New York to London. London to? Were their direct from London in1961 or did you have to go through some place else?

She's lucky she didn't have the baby on the plane.

Problem two.

She gets to Kenya but she doesn't stay in Kenya. She travels (one must assume relatively poor infrastructure outside of Nirobi) to Mombassa (so the story goes) which at the time was not part of British Kenya, but British Zanzibar. Now, the Brits for all of their wonderful colonial infrastructure and adminstrative abilities, were also not particularly keen on race mixing. So a white American teenager (she was 17) married to an older Black and seemingly anti-coloinial moslim/marxist activist (if we follow D'Suza's view of it) goes into a hospital (presumably run by colonial authorities) in Mombassa and has a mixed race baby. Yet, that apparently didn't strike anyone as so memerable an event that they noted it down anywhere.

Next, this 17 yearold white mother with her infant half race child decides to return to the United States (reverse the air line route issues noted above, not to mention travelling again, presumably, to Niarobi). Her black husband who was on a student visa and left the United States, presumably must get some kind of new entry document to return to the United States. She, with an infant, must presumably go either to the U.S. embassy and put the baby on her passport or go to the British Civil authorities and put the baby on Sr.'s passport. You can't just bring an undocumented baby into the country, even in 1961, and especially if that baby was half black and half white.

But, oddly enough, not only are their no visa records or passport office records of this occurance, no one in either the British colonial serive or the American counselor service, remembers the strickingly strange case of a 17 year old woman from Hawaii married to an black African student trying to register her newborn son on a British or American passport to transport the kid back to Hawaii. I know Counselor Service people see strange things all the time, but I'm pretty sure that would have been one of the strangest cases to walk in the door. I would bet it would have been a case that they would have used to train Counselor officials about what they might encounter in the field...in short, it would have been written up.

Next, there is the whole getting back home problem. See above.

Now, she enters the United States in New York? Honolulu? In either case she has to go through Immigration with this child. Is he on her passport or his? They don't pull aside the teenage mother and ask her about her mixed race baby? Where she got it? They don't check with GrandMa back in Hawaii to see if the marriage was legal? Rember, this isn't today, this is 1961 and even in more moderate places like New York and Honolulu, race mixing is still pretty shocking, rare and subject to suspicion and controversy.

No one notes this down, however, she just breezes through immigration in three places (maybe more -- but at least Kenya, Great Britain and the U.S.) without comment or expressions of concern or interest for the story of a 17 yearold Hawaiian married to a black African and their mixed race child. Yep, I'm buying it.

Next, she gets back to Hawaii...however she accomplished that. She ONLY than, apparently thinks: Ah, I want my baby to be assured all of the benefits of U.S. citizenship, I'm concerned (though she likely wouldn't have known the law) that he won't be because of being born in Kenya.

Actually, it is more likely that she would have made a very easy mistake and assumed that because she was a citizen she passed her citizenship onto her born out of the U.S. son and never worried about he question again...rather than knowing the rather arcane part of the citizenship laws that suggest that a U.S. citizen who is a minor might not be able to automatically pass citizenship along to a child born outside of the U.S. It isn't a well known section of the law.

In any event, she or her husband decides to ensure Barak's citizenship. How do they do it? Not by going to Immigration. Not by consulting a lawyer or the INS (or its 1961 forerunner version) but by faking up a newspaper article and a birth certificate.

Rather than obtain for their son a specific document attesting to his citizenship (a far more important document to a person born overseas than any birth certificate would have been), they choose to have the birth announced in the paper and tell everyone that the child was born in a hosptial in Hawaii...not the far more interesting story which isn't bad or nafarious about their wonderful trip to visit his family in kenya where she unexpectedly had the baby and all of the administrative mumbo-jumbo they had to go through to get the baby back home and on Mama's passport.

Their son, his future presidential ambitions burning early (oddly, had he been overseas, President would have been essentially the only public job he couldn't have held...he could have been a governor, mayor, Senator, Congressman, sat on the Supreme Court or been a Cabinent Secretary), than makes a career out of denying not only his family history but faking up a birth record in a state where he wasn't even a resudebt (I hadn't realized how powerful a State Senator from illinois could be to have the reach to get the public records administration of a state where he had only a few ties to, to get the records hidden. His grandmother must have been an intensely and secretly powerful woman in Hawaii to have had this done).

Yes, it all makes sense. What I've written above seems so much more plausable, likely and provable than Hawaii issuing a certified birth certificate authenticated by the state's Secretary of Health.
 
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There you go being rational again, drkitten... don't you know none of that ra-shun-al-itee hornswoggle applies when we're talkin' about a...

Okay, I can't even bring myself to type that N-word, even if I star it out. So that's as far as my inbred racist impression can go.
 
y.

".....(AP) HONOLULU - Interim Hawaii Health Director Dr. Neal Palafox abruptly quit Wednesday, the first of new Gov. Neil Abercrombie's Cabinet appointees to leave.

The reason for Palafox's resignation was a mystery, and he wouldn't say whether he was asked to resign.....

....
Sen. Clayton Hee, who has overseen many confirmation hearings, said he suspected that the Abercrombie administration's review of Palafox's background overlooked key information....."


Why check backgrounds for semi-important positions?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/27/politics/main7288553.shtml
 
One of the things I find puzzling about the whole Birther cobblers is that Obama's story should be one all Americans are proud of. A mixed race man from fairly humble origins works his way up to the highest office in the land, one of the most important positions in the world. This shows that for all the problems with race America had and still has, it is working to move forward. It shows that the presidency isn't some clannish thing handed down from father to son. But no, racism means the Birthers have to make their country look petty, backwards and small. Good work, guys. Good work.
 
I'm still waiting to hear why him mom would have been anywhere other than the US when he was born. Then I want to know why she would conspire to make it look like he was born there way back then.

This is how a Birther answered a version of that question to me in an email;

It was all part of a Manchurian Candidate scheme orchestrated by MI5 and the Queen of England. The goal was to get an Empire citizen to become POTUS and grease the skids for importation of the Heroin which the Queen has a financial interest in.

I kid you not. This is what the guy said.
 
y.

".....(AP) HONOLULU - Interim Hawaii Health Director Dr. Neal Palafox abruptly quit Wednesday, the first of new Gov. Neil Abercrombie's Cabinet appointees to leave.

The reason for Palafox's resignation was a mystery, and he wouldn't say whether he was asked to resign.....

....
Sen. Clayton Hee, who has overseen many confirmation hearings, said he suspected that the Abercrombie administration's review of Palafox's background overlooked key information....."


Why check backgrounds for semi-important positions?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/01/27/politics/main7288553.shtml

And how is it that you think Obama's "background" hasn't been checked? People asked to see his birth certificate. The official state document -- the one recognized as official and certified by every state, federal and locality -- was provided and has been put up on the internet, as well as inspected by several reporters. In addition, in a move that is not taken with any other citizen, the head of the State Department of Health issued a statement that she verifies that the information contained on the certified birth certificate is correct.

What more could you possibly or reasonably expect?

What more could the State -- because it is the state and not Obama -- do that it hasn't done? And why should it do more than it has done? THe fact that you can see that the world is round from outter space hasn't convinced the flat earthers that the world is round. How would you propose we do that?

Your level of discourse, logic, reason, thought on this reminds me of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTIvTC2XB00&feature=fvst
 
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I kid you not. This is what the guy said.

Yes...but I am constantly amazed at the exagerated stupidity of the alleged conspirators in these kinds of things as much as by the assertions of the nut cases.

Think about it. You are conpiring to have a halfwith afro-islamic marxist become the President of the United States way back in 1961 (when blacks, even in non-Southern states were pretty well discriminated against...so you have to be a real visionary to imagine the radical racial change that would take place in the US over the next thirty years), so even while you're a visionary on race relations, you planning is pretty piss poor.

RATHER than have the baby born in the United State -- and thus allay all possible doubts as to its citizenship or its eligibility for the presidencey some day -- NO, in a fit of brilliance you have the teenage mother leave the country so you can engage in an even more elaborate cover-up.

This was a plan thought up by Boris Badanoff. Ah, but only a few (semi-literate, ranters and ravers) have the ability to see through the plot. The mind boggles.
 
As a follow-up to my previous post, I got bored and started browsing airline timetables from that era. Mixing things up a bit, I was able to throw together a possible trip courtesy of United Airlines (1959 timetable), American Airlines (1962 timetable) & BOAC (1960 timetable), and arrived at a fare which, adjusted for inflation, would be somewhere in the region of $10,000 dollars. And that's using cheapest possible tickets on uncomfortable propliners, with some of the fares being oneway only (couldn't find return fares).
 
As a follow-up to my previous post, I got bored and started browsing airline timetables from that era. Mixing things up a bit, I was able to throw together a possible trip courtesy of United Airlines (1959 timetable), American Airlines (1962 timetable) & BOAC (1960 timetable), and arrived at a fare which, adjusted for inflation, would be somewhere in the region of $10,000 dollars. And that's using cheapest possible tickets on uncomfortable propliners, with some of the fares being oneway only (couldn't find return fares).

Tramp steamer fare would have been less... ;)
 
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