Merged Their Return

[RoboTimbo]

The context and these artifacts, don't fit together, without applying some sort of advanced technology OR an literal army of master masons.

The problem is that I fully understand exactly what it takes to shape stone with hand tools...

Those inner corners with right angles are a real bitch when you have only chisels and hammers.

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.

How is that statue of David coming along? What's that you say? You can't do it? So to you it must have been done by aliens.

Do you really think the statue of David was created by aliens?

 

[Correa Neto]

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.

Scroll down untill you find the sandstone scupltures.
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~blackash/craving.htm

They seem much more complex than anything I saw in Tiwanaku pics.

Feeling hungry and in the mood of kissing?

ETA 1- Took me less than 30s of googling. There's a lesson for you here, KotA.
ETA 2- You might also want to look at this link: http://www.pzhlz.net/Offert-Sandstone-Sculpture-Sandstone-Rilievo-p-22140

 

[King of the Americas]

I suggest you to consider that the fact that a given individual can not reproduce a given artifact does not mean no one else can. Its an incredibly arrogant and/or naive statement.

That wasn't the point of the exercise. What you lack is an appreciation for what it takes to arrive at that finished product.

By the way, I am quite used to see people working in quaries (I am a geologist, and not an young one, remember?). I've seen people cutting blocks of sandstones, granites and gneisses with simple tools. Your statement that "Hammering these cuts into stones with fracture lines is increasingly difficult" is simply wrong. Doubt? Check Petra. Or you'll say its beyond our tech also?

I did not recall your occupation. My apologies and kudos. Earth Sciences fascinate me.

Petra, while impressive in its own right, is a different quality of work, from what Puma Punku represents.

In other words, you are cherry-picking features which fit your view.

No. I am attempting to explain that each stones offers different evidence, and that those descending squared cuts are a real bitch. Mass producing 'perfectly fitting' stone legos would have taken an army of master masons or some sort of advanced technology.

Have you actually read what I wrote about your errors? Will you ignore them? Will you accept that your experience, your inferences, your extrapolations were wrong? Or the idea of being wrong is somehow unacceptable for you?

I think your attempts to make more of my errors are a waste of my time to address...

I will accept that I still live, healthy and often happy, and far from danger. I attribute my very survival to my ability to senses and reason. Having never failed me, I will continue to trust them.

That said, I have and will likely continue to make errors, in judgement or memory. As would be expected as part of the human condition. But to equate this with a 0% trustability rating is absurd.

Please show where I acted as a jerk regarding you. I can show you where I perceived you acted as one regarding me.

I was not referring to you. And I heartily apologize for the inference. I just received a P.M. from the moderation folk for calling someone a "Jerk". That person is now on my ignore list.

This is just wrong.

Skeptcism and critical thinking applied to the real world produce much safer results than beliefs. Want an example? Here's one- the people who keep living at dangerous areas subjected to flash floods, mudslides, etc. having faith in "god's will". Want another one? The folks who tried to fly ignoring aerodynamics. If it weren't for critical thinking we would still be using flint tools.

So, there's a first hand report of a flood, headed for your camp site. You can accept the report and move, or be SKEPTICAL and wait for confirmation that there really IS a flood coming.

ABANDON SKEPTICISM trust the report and move...

You have not been able to demonstrate the "timely truth" of any of your claims about UFOs and ancient civilizations; I and other people have in many cases provided you with explanations about the "enigmas" you posted. Explanations you choose to forget and/or ignore. You should at least consider the fact that if we once showed you to be wrong in some claim you made, maybe we are also right again.

I AM your timely truth.

So, since you seem to hold many answers and exceptional wisdom and knowledge, I challenge you now.

Prove my skydemons scenario is flawed.

Prove my explanations about the implausibility of an ancient civilization with technology above or even equal to ours are wrong.

Prove my explanations about why there are no hidden undersea civilizations are wrong.

Prove my explanations about why a civilization somewhere else in the solar system is implausible are wrong.

If you can't, then consider that blind belief when employed in the real world is dangerous, and I suggest you keep it in imaginary scenarios where timely truth isn't necessary. Feel free to call me a jerk for calling you on that.

I am not at all interested in proving any of your negatives.

 

[King of the Americas]

Scroll down untill you find the sandstone scupltures.
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~blackash/craving.htm

They seem much more complex than anything I saw in Tiwanaku pics.

Feeling hungry and in the mood of kissing?

ETA 1- Took me less than 30s of googling. There's a lesson for you here, KotA.
ETA 2- You might also want to look at this link: http://www.pzhlz.net/Offert-Sandstone-Sculpture-Sandstone-Rilievo-p-22140

Not even close buddy...

And I also guarantee they used air hammers on the first series, which would count as 'advanced technology'.

I said do it with modern hand tools...

I'll buy a new stick of lip balm, and leave it unopened, just for you. They keep, right?

 

[King of the Americas]

How is that statue of David coming along? What's that you say? You can't do it? So to you it must have been done by aliens.

Do you really think the statue of David was created by aliens?

David was marble, one object, and took one of the world's master sculptures 3 years to finish carving and polishing.

I have every appreciation for the work it takes to accomplish that task.

What your lying ignorance refuses to see is that the work there represents 100 Michelangelos working a decades, OR some 'advanced technology' that could mass produce these things.

I do NOT believe in "aliens". Please stop attributing them to my posts. To continue to do so is dishonest, AND IS THE SAME AS NAME CALLING, in my opinion.

 

[carlitos]

What the work requires is 'advanced technology' or an army of master masons.

As I noted before, your use of quotes doesn't help here. Are you being facetious? Why couldn't the Tiwanaku field an army of master masons? That's what I would do if I wanted a cool temple built.

YOU are lying by attributing "aliens" to anything I've said. Please stop.

I included the parenthetical and you ignored it. I honestly have no idea what you are claiming, and I'd rather use a common word than ridicule you with 'whatevertheyarebutnotaliens' or 'UFOliens' or something. If you prefer a word, bring it. Gods?

Wait a minute, we are playing "let's pretend" and all the anecdotes are true. Therefore, given the myriad anecdotes I have heard, there are aliens from other planets in flying saucers. What's your beef?

I am claiming that the work present there represents either an army of master masons, or a an advanced technology to mass produce these stones legos.

False dilemma^WP. Even so, do me a favor and check your goalposts on wheels, and ask "what size is an army" vs. "what size was the population of Tiwanaku" and let me know what your exact claim is. Big things got built in just about every ancient civilization. Masonry is not new.

I do not believe that 100% of the stones there are sandstone due to conflicting reports and the fact that there are diorite and granite quarries in Bolivia, as well as sandstone. I think it is 'likely' that some of the stones are not sandstone.

There are no conflicting reports. There are actual blocks carved out of sandstone, and there are UFO / whatever credulous websites claiming a bunch of nonsense. This includes you. In any case, what you believe has no bearing at all on objective reality. This would be further proven by wasting everyone's time with a moment skyward during the Olympics, so good luck with that.

 

[King of the Americas]

As I noted before, your use of quotes doesn't help here. Are you being facetious? Why couldn't the Tiwanaku field an army of master masons? That's what I would do if I wanted a cool temple built.


I included the parenthetical and you ignored it. I honestly have no idea what you are claiming, and I'd rather use a common word than ridicule you with 'whatevertheyarebutnotaliens' or 'UFOliens' or something. If you prefer a word, bring it. Gods?

...

There are no conflicting reports. There are actual blocks carved out of sandstone, and there are UFO / whatever credulous websites claiming a bunch of nonsense. This includes you. In any case, what you believe has no bearing at all on objective reality. This would be further proven by wasting everyone's time with a moment skyward during the Olympics, so good luck with that.

There aren't enough master masons alive at any one time, my friend. There were hundreds of identically crafted in a masterful manner.

I think lower case "god(s)" is the most accurate term one could use, historically speaking. Leave the "omni" out of it, but acknowledge they know more than us.

What isn't in conflict is that diorite, granite, and sandstone are common to the area. Given this fact alone, I'd wager that some of the stones are not sandstone, but rather something much much harder.

 

[Nonpareil]

No. I am attempting to explain that each stones offers different evidence, and that those descending squared cuts are a real bitch. Mass producing 'perfectly fitting' stone legos would have taken an army of master masons or some sort of advanced technology.

No, it wouldn't have. Andrew Wiggin, myself, and others have already offered evidence counter to this in the "Skeptics vs. Knowers/Believers" thread.

Those stones were entirely within the abilities of the local civilizations to craft.

So, there's a first hand report of a flood, headed for your camp site. You can accept the report and move, or be SKEPTICAL and wait for confirmation that there really IS a flood coming.

ABANDON SKEPTICISM trust the report and move...

You still don't understand skepticism, do you?

We know that floods exist. We know that they happen occasionally.

I AM your timely truth.

No. You're just another woo in a long line of woos.

I do NOT believe in "aliens". Please stop attributing them to my posts. To continue to do so is dishonest, AND IS THE SAME AS NAME CALLING, in my opinion.

Grow up.

I included the parenthetical and you ignored it. I honestly have no idea what you are claiming, and I'd rather use a common word than ridicule you with 'whatevertheyarebutnotaliens' or 'UFOliens' or something. If you prefer a word, bring it. Gods?

He believes that the aliens are from Earth, and that they live in magic invisible cities that no one has ever found any evidence of whatsoever. He doesn't like the word "aliens" because it implies that they come from somewhere other than Earth.

Yes, it is really that silly.

 

[carlitos]

There aren't enough master masons alive at any one time, my friend. There were hundreds of identically crafted in a masterful manner.

Yes. And you disrespect the people who carved these stones in a masterful manner by assuming they couldn't do it because you couldn't do it. Moreover, you disrespect them by calling them "stone age" and by incredulously suggesting that, since the primitive people couldn't do it, therefore gods. It's ridiculous.

I think lower case "god(s)" is the most accurate term one could use, historically speaking. Leave the "omni" out of it, but acknowledge they know more than us.

Again with the quotes. Who is saying "omni" and about what? Great, I'll start using "gods" to refer to your hypothetical whatevers.

What isn't in conflict is that diorite, granite, and sandstone are common to the area. Given this fact alone, I'd wager that some of the stones are not sandstone, but rather something much much harder.

Why must you move the goalposts? It's dishonest. You claimed that gods somehow helped carve these stones out of diorite or granite. The stones are made of sandstone. No one here cares what you would "wager," since you haven't a clue.

 

[dafydd]

No one here cares what you would "wager," since you haven't a clue.

That's the only thing that we have learned in this thread so far.

 

[RoboTimbo]

David was marble, one object, and took one of the world's master sculptures 3 years to finish carving and polishing.

Then you'd better get started soon. If you can't do it, you must believe that "gods" did it. That's the same thing you're saying about Pumapunku or you're a hypocrite.

I have every appreciation for the work it takes to accomplish that task.

You have no appreciation for the master masons that were at Pumapunku. Your derision of their efforts is palpable. You are a racist.

What your lying ignorance refuses to see is that the work there represents 100 Michelangelos working a decades, OR some 'advanced technology' that could mass produce these things.

Where did I lie or display ignorance? I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't a hypocrite.

I do NOT believe in "aliens". Please stop attributing them to my posts. To continue to do so is dishonest, AND IS THE SAME AS NAME CALLING, in my opinion.

Your opinions on the matter are irrelevant. If you believe it is name calling, report the post.

 

[bruto]

There aren't enough master masons alive at any one time, my friend. There were hundreds of identically crafted in a masterful manner.

I think lower case "god(s)" is the most accurate term one could use, historically speaking. Leave the "omni" out of it, but acknowledge they know more than us.

What isn't in conflict is that diorite, granite, and sandstone are common to the area. Given this fact alone, I'd wager that some of the stones are not sandstone, but rather something much much harder.

There do not have to be a slew of master masons out there. There must be a number of well trained stone workers, taught the technique of doing that job. The precision of the pattern may well be the work of a master, but the master need only provide the templates or plans for the work for it to be reproduced by someone skilled in the actual stone work. The very fact that so many of these stones were identical bespeaks a mass production and delegation of duties, not an army of individual masters. But even if there did need to be a number of master masons, what's the problem? We're looking at a settlement of something like 60 thousand people, in a culture where, quite obviously, stone work is considered a job and an art of the utmost importance. It's likely that masonry was a high status occupation. Why would we not see an unusual concentration of master masons in such a culture?

 

[Correa Neto]

Not even close buddy...

And I also guarantee they used air hammers on the first series, which would count as 'advanced technology'.

Not even close? You sure?
Left, Pumapunku, right, the sculptures of Peter Cook. His work seems much more complex.

And no, I have no idea if they used an air hammer or not. Sandstone, however, may be a relatively soft rock to carve. And since you asked for examples of similar carvings of straight angles done with modern tools...

I said do it with modern hand tools...

Nope, you actually wrote:

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.

(my bolding).

And by the way there's also the smaller scuptures at the second linkie thingie.

I'll buy a new stick of lip balm, and leave it unopened, just for you. They keep, right?

Sorry, I'm straight; even if I weren't, please remind you should keep your kisses for the folks who made the sculptures.

 

[BTMO]

The aliens spelt "HAH" wrong.

Losers.

 

[Stray Cat]

The aliens spelt "HAH" wrong.

Losers.

I notice that Peter Cook spelt "arse" wrong too....

 

[Yeah_Right]

There is a podcast on Skeptoid on Puma Punku, KoTA, you should go give it a listen. http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4202.mp3

 

[Correa Neto]

That wasn't the point of the exercise. What you lack is an appreciation for what it takes to arrive at that finished product.

I have no doubt its hard; I have no doubts, however, that our ancestors could handle the task. Would take longer? Yes. Another reason for us to respect them. And also another reason for them to do it. "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair". A statement of their powers, of the power of their sovereigns and religion.

Petra, while impressive in its own right, is a different quality of work, from what Puma Punku represents.

Left, Tiwanaku/Pumapunku; right, Petra.

They have different styles. One can argue that Petra required more work and more specialized people to build, given the more intricate ornaments. Please explain why the folks who built Petra would not have been able to make Pumapunku-like structures and carvings. Or Petra's builders also had "advanced technology"?

What the f-word do you mean by the way by "advanced technology"? What are the standards?

No. I am attempting to explain that each stones offers different evidence, and that those descending squared cuts are a real bitch. Mass producing 'perfectly fitting' stone legos would have taken an army of master masons or some sort of advanced technology.

Not necessarily. A group of specialized workers under the a master would do the task. Its not exactly unheard of.

I think your attempts to make more of my errors are a waste of my time to address...

I will accept that I still live, healthy and often happy, and far from danger. I attribute my very survival to my ability to senses and reason. Having never failed me, I will continue to trust them.

You sure your perceptions never failed you? Never mistook the distance before taking a step? Never thought something was something else?

And by the way, I am talking about the many errors you make in interpretation and extrapolation when it comes down to ancient civilizations, etc.

That said, I have and will likely continue to make errors, in judgement or memory. As would be expected as part of the human condition. But to equate this with a 0% trustability rating is absurd.

Please show me who is saying you or anyone else have "0% trustability"?

If you are talking about your alleged UFO sighting, people are saying everybody makes mistakes sometimes, relating these mistakes to some UFO sightings and suggesting you, being human, may have been mistaken in your perception, interpretation and recollection.

I was not referring to you. And I heartily apologize for the inference. I just received a P.M. from the moderation folk for calling someone a "Jerk". That person is now on my ignore list.

No problem. Just be careful or you'll end up like Limbo, with a huge ignore list. Pointless on a debate forum, if one does not want to be challenged, better start a blog, IMHO.

So, there's a first hand report of a flood, headed for your camp site. You can accept the report and move, or be SKEPTICAL and wait for confirmation that there really IS a flood coming.

You don't get it do, you? The correct thing to do would to not put destiny in the hands of god. The right thing to do would be to look at the evidence (signs of previous floods, for example) and build houses somewhere else. There would be no need to run from the flood. Quite often you can´t run from flash floods and mudslides, as one can seen from the 800+ people who died here in Brazil a few days ago.

ABANDON SKEPTICISM trust the report and move...

See above. Embrace critical thinking and build your house somewhere else; embrace critical thinking and assume the responsability for your destiny.

I AM your timely truth.

Same thing the tele evangelists say. Provide reliable evidence, that's all I ask.

By the way, the odds are I already know the UFO litany you may try to recite. Been there, believed that and disbelieved that.

I am not at all interested in proving any of your negatives.

These are not exactly negatives. The fact is that you can not present an effective counter argumentation to any of them. No one can. Bold claim? Yes. Prove me wrong.

 

[Correa Neto]

The aliens spelt "HAH" wrong.

Losers.

Nope. You are mistaken. They wrote "HUH!?" just before the arrival of the flood's tidal waves. It was turned upside down by the waters, which washed away the "!?". In the background, you can see parts of the "AAAAHHHHHH!" written by other aliens (which were a few meters ahead) as the waves hit them.

Tragic.

 

[bruto]

KotA: some day when you're looking for an interesting tourist experience, drop up to Barre, Vermont. In the cemeteries of that vicinity, you will find just what modern master stonecutters with either hand or powered tools (depending on age of stones) can do with a piece of rock.

Barre, if you're not familiar with the place, is or once was the center of a granite quarrying industry. The granite workers, many of them of Italian ancestry, were famous for their exquisite and detailed carving of stone much more obdurate than sandstone, and took especial pride in their monumental sculpture. The peak population of Barre over the last two centuries has been approximately 1/5 that of Puma Punku.

 

[King of the Americas]

...

No. You're just another woo in a long line of woos.



Grow up.



He believes that the aliens are from Earth, and that they live in magic invisible cities that no one has ever found any evidence of whatsoever. He doesn't like the word "aliens" because it implies that they come from somewhere other than Earth.

Yes, it is really that silly.

More NAME CALLING...tisk tisk

I demonstrated earlier in a war scenario where a 'skeptic' dismissed the initial report of a scout, needing 'verification' of the anecdotal finding that lightly guarded artillery attacks were about to commence.

I don't believe in aliens.

I believe there was a time in our ancient past, that we 'lost' knowledge. Or that knowledge and or way of life ascended into the heavens.