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Merged Their Return

aviolet4u said:
The state of being warped or twisted? If you go by ermm some people's claims of seeing all those flying discs pop in and out. How else could they appear and disappear so quickly? We have to think logically here.
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What I saw 'darted'...or moved quickly, even while making right angle turns.

I didn't see anything "pop in or out".

That said, what I saw exceeded what I know and understand to be normal flight characteristics.
 
King of the Americas said:
First, there are granite, diorite, and sandstone quarries in Bolivia. I am 90% certain that 'some' of the stones at Puma Punku are diorite. I am also certain that some are made of sandstone. In my searches I have seen sources that say both, and both stones are common to the local geology.

Second, what I said was that whoever did that had advance technology.

The accuracy of the work itself is awesome, but when you think about how many 'master masons' it must have taken, then the whole project takes on another meaning. You'd need an army of master masons, to do this. There had to have been a way of mass producing these things. They fit together like perfect stone legos, hundreds of them.

They look like they came out of a mold, rather than being individually carved.
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The accuracy certainly is awesome, suggesting that someone was very careful in layout and practical application of geometry. Whether or not one would need an army of master masons to do this is, I think, arguable, as once the skills for specific tasks have been learned, skilled laborers can be trained. Not an army of master masons, but an army of stonecutters trained to a single task, equipped with tools and templates, would be far more practical and far more likely. It is an impressive feat of mass production, and the very idea of mass production at that time is noteworthy, but that very fact reminds us that those who worked the stones need not be those who designed them.

It's a wonderful achievement, but nothing in it, as far as I can see, requires superhuman, divine or non-human participation.
 
King of the Americas said:
I had the same problem...
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Here's why.

http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/project/pumapunku1.html

http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?pid=S0717-73562004000100003&script=sci_arttext


As I was informed by Marduk, "Puma punku is just a temple, the name of the site is Tiwanaku".


Proponents of the ancient astronaut hypothesis always make the mistake of either ignoring the actual historical context of the artifact they are dealing with, or resort to an argument from ignorance. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you should just to irrational conclusions based on no good evidence.
 
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Marduk said:
Has he tried to claim that Tiwanaku is 15,000 years old yet ?
:D
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The source he linked did, yes. The source also talked about the Great Flood 12,000 years ago. Complete BS.

King of the Americas said:
I used wiki for an 'image'...not specific data on the make up of a pile of rocks in South America.
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If you actually used wikipedia, and read it for information, you would know that 500AD in South America wasn't the STONE AGE.

King of the Americas said:
Not exactly a scholarly source. I mean 'I' could change the page right now to say they are diorite or even unobtainium.
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Go ahead. Let's see how long your unsourced, fact-free changes to the entry would stay there.
 
carlitos said:
The source he linked did, yes. The source also talked about the Great Flood 12,000 years ago. Complete BS.
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Zanders recently posted link (first one) contain numerous radio carbon dates from the site, the vast majority are grouped around 500 CE, theres one as old as 1990BCE, which iirc was the remains of a campfire found underneath the construction indicating that at that time the site was virgin
;)
 
King of the Americas said:
Wikipedia is your source...?

Not exactly a scholarly source. I mean 'I' could change the page right now to say they are diorite or even unobtainium.

That is the first time I've ever heard of the stones being sandstone.

Sandstone is very soft, and I doubt seriously that ALL the stones there are made of it, simply by the lack of weathering.
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I take that we no longer have to assume all the anecdotes we like are true and now they and the claims built over them became game, right?

KotA, you should really be carefull when extrapolating what you (believe to) know. Sometimes it will result in a complete mess. I hope now you see why your extrapolation regarding fossil sea shells at your backyard by no means open the possibility that the oceans floors were exposed above sea level and unknown civilizations existed there. This was an example, and that quote of yours up above is another one.

Pumapunku is at an arid to semi arid area where chemical weathering is not intense. This put there are other things you must take in to account:

First of all, sandstones quite frequently are mostly composed by quartz. If this is the case, then you are looking at a rock which will be quite resistant to chemical weathering even in humid tropical climate (where chemical weathering rules and turns diorites in to clay). Now, Pumapunku sandstones can as well be of the types rich in feldspars or lithic components (arkoses and lithic sandstones). Which one will be harder will depend on the cement. The odds are that if they arkoses or lithic sandstones, they will be easier to carve than quartz-rich sandstones.

The second mistake is to assume the rocks used to build the temples would show, in the pictures you saw, signs of weathering effects which happened in the time interval between removal from the quarry and today. Remember, its a dry place. Even if there are weathering signs, not only you should have the skills to detect them but also the pictures would have to show them. Since most of the pics available intend to show the best angles...

Thes third thing you are missing (there are many others) is that all rocks contain fractures, which are natural weakness planes. They happen in sets wich quite often are orthogonal to each other. So, to make a block with straight angles, just split the block along the fractures. Note that since fracture spacing may change according to location within a quarry, blocks with different sizes may result. Now look at a wall buit of stones from Tiwanaku and tell me what you can see regarding the size of the stones used to build it.

Now, if you think Pumapunku carvings and sculptures are too hard to do due to straigth angles, look like having been molded, etc., then I suggest you to take a look at some pictures of Petra (reading about it would be a great idea too) and accept your perceptions, extrapolations and interpretations are once again wrong and your knowledge and experience have flaws (as everyone else's has).

It would be also nice of you to apologize for some harsh comments aimed at the people wich have been providing you with good information. Comments like "abandomn skepticism", for example. Especially when you realize that critical thinking is showing your claims and reasonings are mistaken again.

ETA- Check pics of the site at http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/
Lots of features which are not compatible with woolore. Lines that are not that straight, etc.
 
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bruto said:
...

It's a wonderful achievement, but nothing in it, as far as I can see, requires superhuman, divine or non-human participation.
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What the work requires is 'advanced technology' or an army of master masons.

Indeed you can easily teach someone how to remove, rough out, and or cut stone. Shaping that stone into something specific, on the other hand takes practice and a lot of it. You could arm a modern master mason with carbide tipped chisels, and I seriously doubt they could create one of those stones.

Those angles and inner corners are obscenely difficult to craft, if not impossible with chisels.

I have first hand experience removing stone with the best chisel you can purchase. I had to sharpen it twice in the time it took me to remove less than a half a pound of stone. Carbide was not known to those who crafted those who made these. Not only would you have needed an army of master masons, but you'd have needed a new sharp 'copper' (?) chisel, every 6-12 strikes. So, you'd need two armies doing nothing but sharpening tools...

At this point, I suggest you go and work some stone because you are currently blind to what it takes to create those stones.
 
Zanders said:
...

Proponents of the ancient astronaut hypothesis always make the mistake of either ignoring the actual historical context of the artifact they are dealing with, or resort to an argument from ignorance. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you should just to irrational conclusions based on no good evidence.
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The context and these artifacts, don't fit together, without applying some sort of advanced technology OR an literal army of master masons.

The problem is that I fully understand exactly what it takes to shape stone with hand tools...

Those inner corners with right angles are a real bitch when you have only chisels and hammers.

I am however, fully prepared to eat all of this, and kiss the feet of ANYONE who can reproduce one of these using modern and tools.
 
Correa Neto said:
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Thes third thing you are missing (there are many others) is that all rocks contain fractures, which are natural weakness planes. They happen in sets wich quite often are orthogonal to each other. So, to make a block with straight angles, just split the block along the fractures. Note that since fracture spacing may change according to location within a quarry, blocks with different sizes may result. Now look at a wall buit of stones from Tiwanaku and tell me what you can see regarding the size of the stones used to build it.

Now, if you think Pumapunku carvings and sculptures are too hard to do due to straigth angles, look like having been molded, etc., then I suggest you to take a look at some pictures of Petra (reading about it would be a great idea too) and accept your perceptions, extrapolations and interpretations are once again wrong and your knowledge and experience have flaws (as everyone else's has).

It would be also nice of you to apologize for some harsh comments aimed at the people wich have been providing you with good information. Comments like "abandomn skepticism", for example. Especially when you realize that critical thinking is showing your claims and reasonings are mistaken again.

ETA- Check pics of the site at http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/tiwanaku/
Lots of features which are not compatible with woolore. Lines that are not that straight, etc.
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Cutting a series of square descending holes into stone with fracture lines is not easy...

Hammering these cuts into stones with fracture lines is increasingly difficult.

I suggest you find a chisel and a piece of stone, and give it a shot. You won't be able to do it, but trying will give you a much better understanding as to what those stones represent.

There may well be lines that aren't straight, stones cut in more simplistic manners, but that statement ignores the stones that are cut/formed in a masterful way.

And I will most certainly NOT apologize for anything I have said. When you act like a "JERK", I'll say so. Skepticism when employed in the real world would be dangerous, and I suggest you and other keep it in imaginary scenarios where timely truth isn't necessary.
 
Cuddles said:
Indeed it is. Which raises the question of why you keep telling us they live at the bottom of the ocean rather than just saying you don't know.
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Your ignorance is showing again, Cuddles.

I never said for certain where they exist. I said they MIGHT be any number of local places we have yet to fully explore.
 
Copper chisels? Carbide? Look dude, sandstone just isn't that hard. Why must you LIE about this stuff?
King of the Americas said:
There may well be lines that aren't straight, stones cut in more simplistic manners, but that statement ignores the stones that are cut/formed in a masterful way.
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Yes, stones cut by a master mason would be cut in a 'masterful' way. No aliens (or whatever the hell you claim) required. You incredulity is proof of nothing.
 
King of the Americas said:
Cutting a series of square descending holes into stone with fracture lines is not easy...

Hammering these cuts into stones with fracture lines is increasingly difficult.

I suggest you find a chisel and a piece of stone, and give it a shot. You won't be able to do it, but trying will give you a much better understanding as to what those stones represent.
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I suggest you to consider that the fact that a given individual can not reproduce a given artifact does not mean no one else can. Its an incredibly arrogant and/or naive statement.

By the way, I am quite used to see people working in quaries (I am a geologist, and not an young one, remember?). I've seen people cutting blocks of sandstones, granites and gneisses with simple tools. Your statement that "Hammering these cuts into stones with fracture lines is increasingly difficult" is simply wrong. Doubt? Check Petra. Or you'll say its beyond our tech also?

King of the Americas said:
There may well be lines that aren't straight, stones cut in more simplistic manners, but that statement ignores the stones that are cut/formed in a masterful way.
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In other words, you are cherry-picking features which fit your view.
Have you actually read what I wrote about your errors? Will you ignore them? Will you accept that your experience, your inferences, your extrapolations were wrong? Or the idea of being wrong is somehow unacceptable for you?

King of the Americas said:
And I will most certainly NOT apologize for anything I have said. When you act like a "JERK", I'll say so.
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Please show where I acted as a jerk regarding you. I can show you where I perceived you acted as one regarding me.

King of the Americas said:
Skepticism when employed in the real world would be dangerous, and I suggest you and other keep it in imaginary scenarios where timely truth isn't necessary.
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This is just wrong.

Skeptcism and critical thinking applied to the real world produce much safer results than beliefs. Want an example? Here's one- the people who keep living at dangerous areas subjected to flash floods, mudslides, etc. having faith in "god's will". Want another one? The folks who tried to fly ignoring aerodynamics. If it weren't for critical thinking we would still be using flint tools.

You have not been able to demonstrate the "timely truth" of any of your claims about UFOs and ancient civilizations; I and other people have in many cases provided you with explanations about the "enigmas" you posted. Explanations you choose to forget and/or ignore. You should at least consider the fact that if we once showed you to be wrong in some claim you made, maybe we are also right again.

So, since you seem to hold many answers and exceptional wisdom and knowledge, I challenge you now.

Prove my skydemons scenario is flawed.

Prove my explanations about the implausibility of an ancient civilization with technology above or even equal to ours are wrong.

Prove my explanations about why there are no hidden undersea civilizations are wrong.

Prove my explanations about why a civilization somewhere else in the solar system is implausible are wrong.

If you can't, then consider that blind belief when employed in the real world is dangerous, and I suggest you keep it in imaginary scenarios where timely truth isn't necessary. Feel free to call me a jerk for calling you on that.
 
carlitos said:
Copper chisels? Carbide? Look dude, sandstone just isn't that hard. Why must you LIE about this stuff?
Yes, stones cut by a master mason would be cut in a 'masterful' way. No aliens (or whatever the hell you claim) required. You incredulity is proof of nothing.
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YOU are lying by attributing "aliens" to anything I've said. Please stop.

I am claiming that the work present there represents either an army of master masons, or a an advanced technology to mass produce these stone legos.

I do not believe that 100% of the stones there are sandstone due to conflicting reports and the fact that there are diorite and granite quarries in Bolivia, as well as sandstone. I think it is 'likely' that some of the stones are not sandstone.
 
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King of the Americas said:
What the work requires is 'advanced technology' or an army of master masons.

Indeed you can easily teach someone how to remove, rough out, and or cut stone. Shaping that stone into something specific, on the other hand takes practice and a lot of it. You could arm a modern master mason with carbide tipped chisels, and I seriously doubt they could create one of those stones.

Those angles and inner corners are obscenely difficult to craft, if not impossible with chisels.

I have first hand experience removing stone with the best chisel you can purchase. I had to sharpen it twice in the time it took me to remove less than a half a pound of stone. Carbide was not known to those who crafted those who made these. Not only would you have needed an army of master masons, but you'd have needed a new sharp 'copper' (?) chisel, every 6-12 strikes. So, you'd need two armies doing nothing but sharpening tools...

At this point, I suggest you go and work some stone because you are currently blind to what it takes to create those stones.
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Oh my. the King blunted his chisel on a rock. Good stone work must be the work of ancient astronauts.
 
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