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Merged Their Return

King of the Americas said:
Why do you need the technology? Why isn't the result of that technology sufficient?
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Because the result that you claim, is no different from what can be achieved without the advanced technology you are proposing. If there were any tell tale signs within the results that could be shown to be impossible to make using the tools we know were available, then you may have a case. But there isn't, so you don't.
 
Yeah_Right said:
There is a podcast on Skeptoid on Puma Punku, KoTA, you should go give it a listen. http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4202.mp3
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Did anyone else listen to this?

There are two different kinds of stones at the sight. The older being the more ornate made of andesite, and the largest newer ones being made of sandstone.

I don't and have not proposed "aliens" or "ancient astronauts" performed this task. Rather i have proposed that these work required an army of master masons or an advanced technology, now lost.

The amount of mastery level work would have required more than master level overseers... The work to be executed had to be perfect. This isn't free flow art, each piece had to be exactly like the next, indicating to me that it would have been easier to form some sort of mass production occurred.
 
I just realized something. Aliens can't look down. No necks. Once they're up there, they're up there and no amount of looking up will change that.

What? Have we finished playing "let's pretend" and moved on to banging our heads against a dead horse? There's advanced technology for that sort of thing nowadays.
 
bruto said:
Saying "we don't know how they did it" is not the same thing as "we can't do it now" or as "we can't figure out a way to do it." True enough, we cannot be sure just what techniques they used, but that's all it means. A city of 60 thousand has plenty of room for both farmers and masons, and, for that matter, for smiths to keep the tools sharp.

Even if it's hard to figure out exactly how these tasks were done, it's still much much more reasonable to surmise that they were done by very skilled human beings (a creature known to exist) than to conjure up a race of alien astronauts or gods or whatever you want to call them. Passing the buck on your ignorance gains you nothing in understanding.

Defaulting to "it must have been gods" every time you see something that's beyond your ability to do is a poor way of understanding and appreciating the great cultural artifacts of humanity. It's insulting, superciliously ethnocentric, and intellectually lazy.
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What I'd LOVE to see, is how much physical work, in how much time, it would take to re-create one of those stones.

We could, based on that figure, start to estimate how many man hours it would take to perform the same take with period appropriate tools to do the same work. Using techniques, we already know, we can arrive at how many master masons it would take (my 'army' guess of +100) to carve every block there (my guess decades).

If we can know how much energy it takes to move a pile of dirt, and how much food and time it would take without a wheel, why can't we come to understand how much energy it would take to remove stone in this manner?

Let me know when ANY of you take tool to stone, to get what those marvels represent.

60,000 farmers didn't do that. They'd of had to be smelting copper half the year to supply the tools for such a job, and I am not sure they even had they wheel yet.

OR

There was an 'advanced technology' at work, that has since been lost to us.

By 'advanced', I mean more developed than our current hand tool technology allows.

And I am NOT suggesting this came from without, it may well have been developed here, but it is gone now...
 
King of the Americas said:
If we can know how much energy it takes to move a pile of dirt, and how much food and time it would take without a wheel, why can't we come to understand how much energy it would take to remove stone in this manner?
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We can. Why do we care?

Let me know when ANY of you take tool to stone, to get what those marvels represent.
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This sounds strikingly similar to Rodney's argument concerning the fact that no one has demonstrated to him, personally, that it is possible to raise a block up a thirty-foot ramp, and that therefore it is impossible, even though it has been demonstrated that the block could be raised up a fifteen-foot ramp.

They'd of had to be smelting copper half the year to supply the tools for such a job
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No. Stone tools. We've been over this before.

There was an 'advanced technology' at work, that has since been lost to us.
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Argument from ignorance fallacy. Also a false dichotomy.
 
Stray Cat said:
Because the result that you claim, is no different from what can be achieved without the advanced technology you are proposing. If there were any tell tale signs within the results that could be shown to be impossible to make using the tools we know were available, then you may have a case. But there isn't, so you don't.
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The result I am pointing at is removed stone, a quantifiable variable.

We can know how many farmers it would take to support how many stone masons.

Pick up a copper chisel, and get after it...
 
King of the Americas said:
What I'd LOVE to see, is how much physical work, in how much time, it would take to re-create one of those stones.

We could, based on that figure, start to estimate how many man hours it would take to perform the same take with period appropriate tools to do the same work. Using techniques, we already know, we can arrive at how many master masons it would take (my 'army' guess of +100) to carve every block there (my guess decades).

If we can know how much energy it takes to move a pile of dirt, and how much food and time it would take without a wheel, why can't we come to understand how much energy it would take to remove stone in this manner?

Let me know when ANY of you take tool to stone, to get what those marvels represent.

60,000 farmers didn't do that. They'd of had to be smelting copper half the year to supply the tools for such a job, and I am not sure they even had they wheel yet.

OR

There was an 'advanced technology' at work, that has since been lost to us.

By 'advanced', I mean more developed than our current hand tool technology allows.

And I am NOT suggesting this came from without, it may well have been developed here, but it is gone now...
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The burden of proof is on you. Prove that they would need nonexistent super advanced technology that contradicts archaeological evidence, and then prove that the technology actually existed. Got any evidence of such technology other than relics you don't understand?
 
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Zanders said:
The burden of proof is on you. Prove that they would need nonexistent super advanced technology that contradicts archaeological evidence.
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I've taken a carbide tipped tool to granite.

What kind of tool should I test on what kind of stone?

I'll save the dust, and we'll get an understanding as to how many hours it would take to remove 1 ounce of material. While I couldn't do the fine inner corner work, I am quite decent at roughing out material.
 
King of the Americas said:
I've taken a carbide tipped tool to granite.

What kind of tool should I test on what kind of stone?

I'll save the dust, and we'll get an understanding as to how many hours it would take to remove 1 ounce of material. While I couldn't do the fine inner corner work, I am quite decent at roughing out material.
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So, you couldn't find any evidence of super advanced ancient technology? Thought so.

Sorry, I don't speculate about things that evidence implies don't exist. Please present evidence that it ever existed before I try to theorize about mysteries with it.
 
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King of the Americas said:
The result I am pointing at is removed stone, a quantifiable variable.
We can know how many farmers it would take to support how many stone masons.
Pick up a copper chisel, and get after it...
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Examples of intricate works from the same time period have been shown to you. The fact that various examples from around the world exist and from all the archeological digs, only tools that we would expect to be found have been found clearly points to those tools being the only ones available.

Many people over the years have tried to re-engineer the methods of carving and moving giant stones (Easter Island Moai Statues, Egyptian Pyramid blocks, Stonehenge Sarsen Stones to name a few) using only 'primitive' methods, so we know it is possible even if we don't know exactly how they did it.

As for your challenge of picking up a copper chisel. No thanks, I have done enough work that is regularly claimed by certain people to be beyond human capability so I know it is usually a failure on behalf of those making such claims to account for human ingenuity.
 
We have one pretty good theory based on logical evidence, now what we really need is evidence of advanced ancient technology that's now lost ever existing.

Still waiting.
 
Stray Cat said:
Examples of intricate works from the same time period have been shown to you. The fact that various examples from around the world exist and from all the archeological digs, only tools that we would expect to be found have been found clearly points to those tools being the only ones available.

Many people over the years have tried to re-engineer the methods of carving and moving giant stones (Easter Island Moai Statues, Egyptian Pyramid blocks, Stonehenge Sarsen Stones to name a few) using only 'primitive' methods, so we know it is possible even if we don't know exactly how they did it.

As for your challenge of picking up a copper chisel. No thanks, I have done enough work that is regularly claimed by certain people to be beyond human capability so I know it is usually a failure on behalf of those making such claims to account for human ingenuity.
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*Bock*Bock*Bock*Bock...(that's my best chicken noise)
 
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