The closer abortion gets to being illegal

[bookitty]

The "coat hanger" imagery is actively pushed to forward the legalized-abortion position. I'm interested to know how accurate the imagery is.

I'm trying to figure out what could be the larger message of this argument that coat hangers specifically were never used. It sounds like something from an anti-choice site but I can't see how it would benefit that position.

ETA: Never mind, I found it on an anti-choice site that includes xenophobia (more abortions equals more Hispanics in the US and more Muslims in Europe), dead baby pictures, and a complete dismissal of back-alley abortions. Lots of Bible stuff but absolutely no mention of medical, financial, social, and psychological effects of unplanned pregnancy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, Dr. Fielding's story is an account of something that happened years and years ago, so it's possible that he's convinced himself of those earlier accounts (as people are known to do in many contexts). I know that if Fielding was describing an unrecorded psychic encounter he remembers from years ago his testimony wouldn't be convincing.
... but, spirit of skepticism aside, that article is good enough for me.

You started with a false premise and now you are reluctant to let go of it so you are discounting evidence to the contrary.

You are being duped by the pro-life propaganda. There are numerous claims of no "official records" of coat hanger abortions, as if record keeping on cause of death was going to contain that specific information, as opposed to perforated uterus or sepsis, as if these liars have combed through every record ever kept, as if an illegal medical procedure would have even been officially recorded.

Here's an example of that lie from a Christian propaganda site:

Dr. Nathanson's observation is borne out in the best official statistical studies available. According to the U.S. Bureau of Vital Statistics, there were a mere 39 women who died from illegal abortions in 1972, the year before Roe v. Wade.[4] Dr. Andre Hellegers, the late Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Georgetown University Hospital, pointed out that there has been a steady decrease of abortion-related deaths since 1942. That year there were 1,231 deaths. Due to improved medical care and the use of penicillin, this number fell to 133 by 1968.[5] The year before the first state-legalized abortion, 1966, there were about 120 abortion-related deaths.[6]

Abortions were illegal. Doctors did not generally record cause of death as, "illegal abortion". They would have recorded "complications of pregnancy", "perforated uterus", "sepsis", and even "miscarriage" rather than "illegal abortion".



See if this account can break through your denial: The Back Alley Revisited: Sepsis after Attempted Self-Induced Abortion. It happened in the next city over in 2009.

We report a case of an attempted self-induced abortion via the intrauterine insertion of a metal coat hanger that was complicated by sepsis. This patient’s presentation illustrates both the major complication of septic abortion and the diagnostic challenge for the EP when a patient conceals the preceding events....

...She then confessed to attempting to end her pregnancy earlier that day by passing a coat hanger deep into her vagina until she felt a “pop,” followed by a gush of fluid and the onset of her abdominal pain. Speculum exam noted no evidence of lower genitourinary injury. Given the patient’s persistent hemodynamic instability and acute abdomen, the general surgery service performed exploratory laparotomy, where one liter of blood was found in her abdomen with a hemostatic wound at the uterine fundus. Broad spectrum antibiotics (ampicillin, gentamicin, and clindamycin) were given. Her postoperative course included sepsis, chorioamnionitis, fetal demise, acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), and a total abdominal hysterectomy with bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy for complications of endomyometritis.

Table 1 in the article:

Common methods of unsafe abortion3,10
Oral and injectable medications: Metal salts, phosphorus, lead, kerosene, turpentine, detergent solutions, uterine stimulants (misoprostol or oxytocin), chloroquine, oral contraceptives
Vaginal preparations and cervical dilators: Potassium permanganate, herbal preparations, douching with soap, dried asparagus, compressed balsa wood
Uterine instrumentation: Coat Hanger, knitting needle, stick, crochet hook, douching, rubber catheter, air blown in by a syringe or turkey baster
Trauma to the abdomen: Self-inflicted blows, abdominal pressure, jumping from a height

The citations for the table don't contain the details in the abstracts, so I took them out of the post. There are other sources of data on current self induced abortions using coat hangers.


Pro-life groups have no qualms lying for Jesus including using purposefully false abortion information. I find it hard to believe these people are not aware that the data they site are incomplete and inadequate to assess the actual facts. The vast majority of physicians and more than a few other medical providers know full well that recorded cause of death is a very limited statistic.




BTW, I also found this in Wiki regarding the parental consent requirement:

Incidences in the U.S. after 1973
In 2005, the Detroit News reported that a 16-year-old boy beat his pregnant, under-age girlfriend with a bat at her request to abort a fetus. The young couple live in Michigan, where parental consent is required to receive an abortion.[18][19][20] In Indiana, where there are also parental consent laws, a young woman by the name of Becky Bell died from a back-alley abortion rather than discuss her pregnancy and wish for an abortion with her parents.[21][22]

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm trying to figure out what could be the larger message of this argument that coat hangers specifically were never used. It sounds like something from an anti-choice site but I can't see how it would benefit that position....

It is a pro-life propaganda effort to down play the consequences of making abortion illegal. They are attacking the symbol of unsafe self induced abortion. Attacking the symbol combined with claims that the total numbers of deaths is wholly fabricated is an attempt to overcome the argument, making abortions illegal leads to an outcome that is inconsistent with pro-life morality.

 

[bookitty]

It is a pro-life propaganda effort to down play the consequences of making abortion illegal. They are attacking the symbol of unsafe self induced abortion. Attacking the symbol combined with claims that the total numbers of deaths is wholly fabricated is an attempt to overcome the argument, making abortions illegal leads to an outcome that is inconsistent with pro-life morality.

Haven't had that one used on me yet and I stay away from the anti-choice sites these days. So let me see if I have this straight, the argument is "When abortion was illegal it wasn't that dangerous, so if it is illegal again it won't hurt that many women." Gross.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't know. One of the anti-choice talking points is that there would be less abortions if it was illegal. Since women were willing to go to a "house of horrors" for the procedure, it undercuts that argument. As well as the claim that women are casual about abortion.

You're making the mistake of assuming logic will have anything to do with it.

 

[AvalonXQ]

This...

You started with a false premise and now you are reluctant to let go of it so you are discounting evidence to the contrary.

... and this...

See if this account can break through your denial:

... imply that you somehow were unable to read this...

... but, spirit of skepticism aside, that article is good enough for me.

I guess it's easier to keep swinging away at a straw man when the actual questioner has already admitted that the presented evidence was satisfactory.

But I do thank you for the additional evidence. It will be useful if I decide to spend any more time arguing with my own source for the "coat hanger abortions are an urban myth" claim.

 

[AvalonXQ]

There are other sources of data on current self induced abortions using coat hangers.

So I've decided to actually get into it a little bit with my "source" after all. Any chance you could provide the link to data on self-induced abortions?

 

[Tatyana]

We pretty much have that over here yet we still have a lot of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.

Take a look at the stats.

While the UK is the embarrassment of Europe for teen and unwanted pregnancies, the US has surpassed us in a phenomenal way.

It is quite shocking.

 

[kellyb]

It is quite shocking.

Not really, when you know about the "abstinence only" education being taught in public schools over here.

 

[Xulld]

From an objective stand point the only reason that late term abortions should be avoided is for the health of the mother.

No practical reason exists to not terminate the child even after birth. Leaving the child inside the uterus to squish its head is not different then taking it out and squishing its head. Suffering should not enter the equation. The dead child will not be concerned with the moment of suffering it may experience prior to termination.

The real facts are human apes are far more irrational than we want to admit and this particular topic (human life and death) no less the lives of children is involved: creatures we are hard wired to protect, gets us into muddy irrational, emotional waters.

The law should not be an emotional response. A clump of cells, or a working nervous system are not a person. Persons have personality and brand new babies are not persons.

A wiring harness is not a car, and a nervous system is not a person. A baby is protected under law because we as humans want it to be so, arbitrary without distinction and without practical need.

I myself am a pacifist and would never opt to have an abortion, nor suggest a person who can enjoy and properly care for a child have one. Once that child has a will of there own, can make decisions and has personality characteristics it should be protected from anyone who wishes to harm the child, IMHO this should also be the case for any animal that can be trained, has a personality and can make decisions. Alas few agree with me.

To me ethics hardly enters the debate until it can be shown the entity has personality.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This...

... and this...

... imply that you somehow were unable to read this...

I guess it's easier to keep swinging away at a straw man when the actual questioner has already admitted that the presented evidence was satisfactory.

But I do thank you for the additional evidence. It will be useful if I decide to spend any more time arguing with my own source for the "coat hanger abortions are an urban myth" claim.

You're right. I quit reading after the part you wrote about this obstetrician having false memories.


And then there was your follow up post:

But why this pedantry?

The "coat hanger" imagery is actively pushed to forward the legalized-abortion position. I'm interested to know how accurate the imagery is.

The truth is not that the pro-choice crowd pushes a lie, the truth in this specific case is the anti-choice group chooses to believe and repeat unsupported claims that fit their world view.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

From an objective stand point the only reason that late term abortions should be avoided is for the health of the mother.

No practical reason exists to not terminate the child even after birth. Leaving the child inside the uterus to squish its head is not different then taking it out and squishing its head. Suffering should not enter the equation. The dead child will not be concerned with the moment of suffering it may experience prior to termination....

Your view of the reality of late term abortions is distorted.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So I've decided to actually get into it a little bit with my "source" after all. Any chance you could provide the link to data on self-induced abortions?

Here is a fairly thorough report from the WHO on unsafe abortions and the mortality of women worldwide. Note the picture on page 3 of the woman with gangrenous bowel protruding out her vagina, the object she used to induce an abortion is still in place.

Unsafe abortion: the preventable pandemic*

Every year, about 19–20 million abortions are done by individuals without the requisite skills, or in environments below minimum medical standards, or both. Nearly all unsafe abortions (97%) are in developing countries. An estimated 68 000 women die as a result, and millions more have complications, many permanent. Important causes of death include haemorrhage, infection, and poisoning. Legalisation of abortion on request is a necessary but insufficient step toward improving women’s health; in some countries, such as India, where abortion has been legal for decades, access to competent care remains restricted because of other barriers. Access to safe abortion improves women’s health, and vice versa, as documented in Romania during the regime of President Nicolae Ceausescu.

Any medical source you look at paints quite a different picture from the dozens of anti-choice web sites bragging about how all the pro-choice murderers are lying. It's irritating to do a search on this topic if you hadn't noticed my attitude deteriorating.

I need a shower now.

 

[fuelair]

Look, I understand an abortion in the first trimester; I think any abortion after that should be verboten unless it's necessary to save the mother's life.

If the baby can be delivered, abortion should be off the table and if the baby comes out alive I believe it's unconscionable to kill him/her. We're not talking about a fetus anymore; we're talking about a baby.

I agree only with the part that starts with "and if the baby", but I agree with it absolutely. Once it's born, it gets to live.

 

[kellyb]

Persons have personality and brand new babies are not persons.

Both of my babies exhibited personalities as newborns.

 

[JSFolk]

Are you aware that icepicks were never used in icepick lobotomies either?

Reference 46 from the Wiki:

Frank Freeman, Walter Freeman's son, stated in an interview with Howard Dully that: "He had several ice-picks that just cluttered the back of the kitchen drawer. The first ice-pick came right out of our drawer. A humble ice-pick to go right into the frontal lobes. It was, from a cosmetic standpoint, diabolical. Just observing this thing was horrible, gruesome."

Yes, they developed specific tools for it later.

 

[EatatJoes]

I agree only with the part that starts with "and if the baby", but I agree with it absolutely. Once it's born, it gets to live.

Yep. You don't get to deliver the baby and then decide to chop it up. As soon as the child is separated from it's mother, it's protected as an individual under the law.

 

[Ziggurat]

The closer abortion gets to being illegal the more dangerous it gets for poor women.

I know you'd like to pin all the blame on the anti-abortion side of the debate, but about the only connection this case has to abortion restriction is the fact that late-term abortions are illegal. Unless you're arguing that they should be legalized, your argument has no basis, and if you are arguing that, good luck, it ain't gonna happen.

Furthermore, there's far more direct blame to be placed on elements of the pro-abortion camp. Let's take a look at the grand jury report:
http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/PDFs/GrandJuryWomensMedical.pdf

From page 9

But at least the department had been doing something up to that point, however ineffectual. After 1993, even that pro forma effort came to an end. Not because of administrative ennui, although there had been plenty. Instead, the Pennsylvania Department of Health abruptly decided, for political reasons, to stop inspecting abortion clinics at all. The politics in question were not anti-abortion, but pro. With the change of administration from Governor Casey to Governor Ridge, officials concluded that inspections would be “putting a barrier up to women” seeking abortions. Better to leave clinics to do as they pleased, even though, as Gosnell proved, that meant both women and babies would pay.

From page 137-138:

We discovered that Pennsylvania’s Department of Health has deliberately chosen not to enforce laws that should afford patients at abortion clinics the same safeguards and assurances of quality health care as patients of other medical service providers. Even nail salons in Pennsylvania are monitored more closely for client safety.

The State Legislature has charged the Department of Health (DOH) with responsibility for writing and enforcing regulations to protect health and safety in abortion clinics as well as in hospitals and other health care facilities. Yet a significant difference exists between how DOH monitors abortion clinics and how it monitors facilities where other medical procedures are performed.

Indeed, the department has shown an utter disregard both for the safety of women who seek treatment at abortion clinics and for the health of fetuses after they have become viable. State health officials have also shown a disregard for the laws the department is supposed to enforce. Most appalling of all, the Department of Health’s neglect of abortion patients’ safety and of Pennsylvania laws is clearly not inadvertent: It is by design.

(italics in original, highlighting mine).

Now, none of this invalidates the pro-abortion position. Bad apples come in all flavors. But this deserves a little more introspection on your part about exactly what went wrong.

 

[sadhatter]

The "coat hanger" imagery is actively pushed to forward the legalized-abortion position. I'm interested to know how accurate the imagery is.

But what exactly is the point? I mean we know a long thin object can be used, and any long thin object used would be pretty disturbing, it is not like the coat hanger has some special psychological significance. So what exactly would be the point in attempting to debate if the coat hanger was used? Even if never used, it would be an example of something that can be used, and we have to call it something, if it wasn't coat hangers it would be some other random object. So i fail to see where the point is in finding out the number of times a coat hanger has been used or the frequency of use.

I mean you might as well be asking " how many abortions have really been done in back allies?" Makes for a neat bit of morbid information, but has no practical use in debate or furthering understanding of the issue.

 

[sadhatter]

Here is a fairly thorough report from the WHO on unsafe abortions and the mortality of women worldwide. Note the picture on page 3 of the woman with gangrenous bowel protruding out her vagina, the object she used to induce an abortion is still in place.

Unsafe abortion: the preventable pandemic*

Any medical source you look at paints quite a different picture from the dozens of anti-choice web sites bragging about how all the pro-choice murderers are lying. It's irritating to do a search on this topic if you hadn't noticed my attitude deteriorating.

I need a shower now.

You know , i watched Teeth last night, and hardly a shudder. Many penises mangled in that film.

I don't even have a vagina, and the thought of a gangrenous bowel protruding from one makes me want to do something to make sure that never happens, ever, to anyone.

All and all, people have been doing unsafe abortions for thousands upon thousands of years, and have made hundreds of methods to unsafely abort. The fact is, it is easy to do, easy to screw up, and completely impossible to prosecute . Even if i did think i had the right to tell a woman what to do with her body, i couldn't say with a straight face that i could stop her. And i surely couldn't attempt to say that the data shows that harm is unlikely to come to her.