The closer abortion gets to being illegal

[Ivor the Engineer]

Is there a chance that black-market illegal abortions/professional infanticides are just as prevalent in the UK, but the perps haven't been caught yet?

Quite possibly. There's plenty of child abuse and murder here.

 

[kellyb]

I'm not suggesting it is anything like laziness, and I'm sure there are an endless number of messy and tragic reasons that would lead to such a decision. My point is that there's no reason to think that what drove these women to him was a lack of abortion providers doing legal abortions, or a lack of money to pay for abortions. What led these women to him was that they wanted illegal late-term abortions. There's no reason to think that more access to legal abortions would have changed that. Legalizing 24+ week abortions might have, but I don't think that's going to happen, and I haven't seen anyone here willing to argue that it should.

I'm unconvinced that money for a cheap early abortion wasn't probably a factor sometimes. I know that seems counter-intuitive considering the high costs of the late ones, but people are often irrational. Denial and being broke combined could breed inaction until the pregnancy became undeniable, at which point desperation sets in.

Indeed, that is one of the troubling questions. Along with the question of whether or not this is a truly isolated case, or whether there are other such clinics still out there.



You mean you hope. I hope so too. But maybe that's not true.

I hope, but I mostly think. It strikes me as completely implausible that there's a high enough concentration of women seeking illegal abortions for this to be a word of mouth thing amongst poor women, spreading even into other states.

The alternative seems much more plausible, and almost as disturbing. Maybe more disturbing.



ETA:
And I think it's probably more likely than not that this was far from an isolated incident. There's probably one of these for every few states.

 

[Emet]

FWIW, here's a statement from one patient from 2001:

When Davida Johnson walked into Dr. Kermit Gosnell's clinic to get an abortion in 2001, she saw what she described as dazed women sitting in dirty, bloodstained recliners. As the abortion got under way, she had a change of heart — but claims she was forced by the doctor to continue.
"I said, 'I don't want to do this,' and he smacked me. They tied my hands and arms down and gave me more medication," Johnson told The Associated Press.
Johnson, then 21, had a 3-year-old daughter when she became pregnant again. She said she first went to Planned Parenthood in downtown Philadelphia but was frightened away by protesters.
"The picketers out there, they just scared me half to death," Johnson, now 30, recalled this week.
Someone sent her to Gosnell's West Philadelphia clinic, at the Women's Medical Society, saying anti-abortion protesters wouldn't be a problem there. She said she paid him $400 cash.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110123/ap_on_re_us/us_abortion_clinic_investigation_8

 

[Ziggurat]

I hope, but I mostly think. It strikes me as completely implausible that there's a high enough concentration of women seeking illegal abortions for this to be a word of mouth thing amongst poor women, spreading even into other states.

Well, this woman says she heard about Gosnell from a friend who had an abortion:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/01/23/nr.former.president.cnn
That part comes around 2:50. She doesn't say if the friend had a late-term abortion, or if she herself did, and the interviewer doesn't ask. But I think the chances are high. It would be useful information to know, but I can understand the reluctance of the interviewer to ask that sort of question on camera.

It's somewhat tangent to this thread, but I'm also struck by how inarticulate that woman was. I don't mean that she's stupid, but she's clearly very poorly educated. She seemed to struggle to express what she thought and felt, and the interviewer had to sort of walk her through events in order to get her to tell her story. And I can't help but think that this inability helped land her in her current tragic circumstances, especially when contrasted with the interview with Gosnell, who is clearly a monster but doesn't have problems expressing himself.

The alternative seems much more plausible, and almost as disturbing. Maybe more disturbing.

I'm not sure what alternative you mean, but yes, I don't see any way to not be disturbed by the number of clients he was evidently able to attract.

 

[kellyb]

Well, this woman says she heard about Gosnell from a friend who had an abortion:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/01/23/nr.former.president.cnn
That part comes around 2:50. She doesn't say if the friend had a late-term abortion, or if she herself did, and the interviewer doesn't ask. But I think the chances are high. It would be useful information to know, but I can understand the reluctance of the interviewer to ask that sort of question on camera.

IIRC, the testimony in the PDF said he did loads of early abortions during the day, but "only" about five "24.5 week" abortions a week. So most of his patients would have been early abortions. So, statistically, I think it was probably an early abortion. He also might have been popular for early abortions because many/most legit providers don't use sedation at all for 1st trimester abortions, afaik. I'm not 100% sure on that, though.

 

[bookitty]

Why do you believe they didn't have access?

This is planned parenthood in Philadelphia:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-center/centerDetails.asp?f=2516

This is the office where Dr. Kermit Gosnell worked from:

http://local.yahoo.com/info-12221134-women-s-medical-society-philadelphia

The distance between them is only a few miles.

http://www.mapquest.com/#dfc03fc4e59c10f4b59a25ba

You may have misunderstood me. Although a safe, legal early abortion might not have been convenient it was available. The cost would have been less or comparable to Gosnell's clinic. So again, the real question is why these women were at this clinic at all.

Setting aside all politics, there were thousands of women who chose to go to Gosnell when there were other cheaper, safer, cleaner, legal options. I am more curious as to the reasons behind that than any other aspects of this case.

I agree with Kellyb that it was a combination of known factors but at the same time, it seems as if there is something missing. Some aspect of the broader picture that I am not seeing.

 

[kellyb]

With first trimester abortions, most providers don't offer sedation, afaik. So the allure of "twilight sleep" for the procedure would be a huge selling point with first trimester patients. This was probably a false advertisement, though, since apparently his one method of aborting for ALL patients was just feeding them cytotec and sedating them? It's hard to tell from the report. But inducing miscarriage is way more brutal for women than just using the common techniques.

Regarding the missing part of the picture and the broader aspect, it seems like a LOT of women somehow got referred to him for not-exactly-legal abortions? Women from out of state. Wealthy white women. How could that be?

I live in one of the worst neighborhoods in one of the most impoverished cities in the US, and while I've met women who think not having a baby because of finances or whatever is crazy talk, I've never encountered one who was 7 months pregnant and wanting an abortion. I'm sure they exist, but they must be sparse. Way too rare, IMO, for this to be some sort of word of mouth phenomenon that travels to other states and to wealthy white chicks needing illegal abortions.

 

[Mycroft]

You may have misunderstood me. Although a safe, legal early abortion might not have been convenient it was available. The cost would have been less or comparable to Gosnell's clinic. So again, the real question is why these women were at this clinic at all.

Setting aside all politics, there were thousands of women who chose to go to Gosnell when there were other cheaper, safer, cleaner, legal options. I am more curious as to the reasons behind that than any other aspects of this case.

I agree with Kellyb that it was a combination of known factors but at the same time, it seems as if there is something missing. Some aspect of the broader picture that I am not seeing.

Well, a lot of them were there because he was the guy to do illegal late-term abortions.

Other than that, it's how any business gets customers. Referrals from other physicians who may not have known how bad he was, word of mouth, or just picking the wrong place out of a phone book.

 

[kellyb]

Well, a lot of them were there because he was the guy to do illegal late-term abortions.

Other than that, it's how any business gets customers. Referrals from other physicians who may not have known how bad he was, word of mouth, or just picking the wrong place out of a phone book.

Again, just advertising sedation and pain relief would have put him head and shoulders above all the other abortion providers. When my bff needed an early abortion, I located only ONE in the whole tri-state area that advertised sedation for early abortion. It was an hour and a half away. In addition to helping (hopefully) her find a good abortion provider, I gave her money to get it. I don't *think* that practice just fed women cytotec and valium and told them to "precipitate" in the bathroom. I'm all freaked out wondering if that was the case, tho, now, in retrospect.

 

[Mycroft]

I would just assume pain relief was part of the care. Is that naive of me?

 

[kellyb]

I would just assume pain relief was part of the care. Is that naive of me?

From what I understand, local pain relief (which is only partially effective) is standard. Sedation to make the experience less traumatic and painful is pretty rare. And expensive.

 

[bookitty]

From what I understand, local pain relief (which is only partially effective) is standard. Sedation to make the experience less traumatic and painful is pretty rare. And expensive.

That is my understanding as well. First trimester abortion is a fairly simple procedure. Like many dental operations, there is little medical need for sedation but many patients ask for it because they are frightened or or discomforted by the procedure. For the majority of clinics which are funded by sliding scale payments, private donations and reduced government subsidies, it is not affordable.

 

[fls]

From what I understand, local pain relief (which is only partially effective) is standard. Sedation to make the experience less traumatic and painful is pretty rare. And expensive.

These things are only expensive because disposable or sterilized equipment, educated staff, adequate monitoring, and well-maintained facilities are expensive. The drugs themselves are generic and cheap. This doctor could offer sedation at almost no cost to himself. While he made money off the procedures, it may have been because he minimal overhead/supply costs compared to a standard facility, rather than charging more than a standard facility.

Linda

 

[kellyb]

These things are only expensive because disposable or sterilized equipment, educated staff, adequate monitoring, and well-maintained facilities are expensive. The drugs themselves are generic and cheap. This doctor could offer sedation at almost no cost to himself. While he made money off the procedures, it may have been because he minimal overhead/supply costs compared to a standard facility, rather than charging more than a standard facility.

Linda

Oh, definitely. He had a 16 year old making $8.50 an hour some nights as the only worker there, catching "precipitating" fetuses in the bathroom in between acting as the anesthesiologist.

 

[Mycroft]

It would be interesting to see how that 16 year old fills out her resume in the future.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

It would be interesting to see how that 16 year old fills out her resume in the future.

Hands-on experience of dealing with people in a difficult customer facing role.

?

 

[Wezznco]

The average human has ONE felopian tube..

Work that one out.

 

[AvalonXQ]

My "source" refuses to accept the validity of the case study and has challenged me to provide an actual name, location, and date of a coat hanger abortion.
I hate dealing with stupid people.

 

[bookitty]

My "source" refuses to accept the validity of the case study and has challenged me to provide an actual name, location, and date of a coat hanger abortion.
I hate dealing with stupid people.

Sometimes it's stupidity, sometimes it's just the incredibly human reaction to a very ugly fact. Some people can not empathize with any aspect of abortion. They can not imagine a circumstance where it would be the best option for them. Trying to expand their understanding to include the idea that a woman would willingly go to a butcher is impossible.

 

[Emet]

My "source" refuses to accept the validity of the case study and has challenged me to provide an actual name, location, and date of a coat hanger abortion.
I hate dealing with stupid people.

Sometimes it's stupidity, sometimes it's just the incredibly human reaction to a very ugly fact. Some people can not empathize with any aspect of abortion. They can not imagine a circumstance where it would be the best option for them. Trying to expand their understanding to include the idea that a woman would willingly go to a butcher is impossible.

Perhaps, bookitty. But anyone who knows anything about the scientific literature knows that patient names, and often specific locations are never revealed in a case study.