The closer abortion gets to being illegal

[Skeptic Ginger]

the more dangerous it gets for poor women.

DA: Pa. abortion doc killed 7 babies with scissors

Now you would think this was about a real doctor trying to do the right thing for desperate women like Dr Tiller was doing. But you'd be wrong.

PHILADELPHIA – A doctor whose abortion clinic was described as a filthy, foul-smelling "house of horrors" that was overlooked by regulators for years was charged Wednesday with murder, accused of delivering seven babies alive and then using scissors to kill them.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell was also charged with murder in the death of a woman who suffered an overdose of painkillers while awaiting an abortion.
In a nearly 300-page grand jury report filled with ghastly, stomach-turning detail, prosecutors said Pennsylvania regulators ignored complaints of barbaric conditions at Gosnell's clinic, which catered to poor, immigrant and minority women in the city's impoverished West Philadelphia section.

 

[lionking]

But if the babies were born alive and he had to kill them, he was performing very late term abortions. If a baby is viable in the womb, I don't see why seven inches or so makes a difference. I have serious problems with late term abortions.

 

[Puppycow]

Appears to be a doctor who maybe wasn't following best practices.

Gosnell is facing charges of murder in the third degree for the death of 41-year-old Karnamaya Mongar. Mrs. Mongar died on November 20, 2009, when she was overdosed with anesthetics prescribed by Gosnell. He is also facing seven murder charges for the deaths of infants who were killed after being born viable and alive during the sixth, seventh, or eighth month of pregnancy. Gosnell is also facing numerous other charges.
. . .
A search of Gosnell’s office, called the Women’s Medical Society, revealed that bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses were scattered throughout the building. Jars containing the severed feet of babies lined a shelf.

Gosnell, a family practioner, was never certified as an OB/GYN. He is accused of re-using unsanitary instruments and performing procedures in filthy rooms. Some of the rooms had litter boxes and animals present at the time of the operations.

I hope everyone remembers to elevate the discussion!
And don't use the incident for political purposes!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

But if the babies were born alive and he had to kill them, he was performing very late term abortions. If a baby is viable in the womb, I don't see why seven inches or so makes a difference. I have serious problems with late term abortions.

We'll have to wait for more information, and it may be that 7 of his hundreds of patients should have been referred to adoption agencies. I am not defending all his clients and I'm certainly not defending this guy if the charges are true.

At the same time, all the terrorist violence against standard clinics that provide abortion services forces said clinics to stop providing that service. And as we know from history, if women want abortions and safe abortions are not available, coat hanger operations spring up. But access is not the only problem women seeking an abortion face.

Who would go to this guy if they had better options? Perhaps a few people who didn't know better. But the vast majority would go because there were problems with other options. Turns out in Philly there are some restrictions on abortions.

Special Information for Women Under 18 Years Old
If a patient is under 18, she must attend the information session with one of her parents (or her legal guardian, if applicable), who will then need to return on the patient’s procedure day to give consent and complete paperwork. For women who cannot involve a parent, or choose not to, the law allows for a judicial bypass. This means that a judge may decide that the patient is mature enough to complete the process herself, without parental consent. Philadelphia Women’s Center phone counselors are trained to help patients through this process, and can explain the necessary steps that will need to be taken if a minor decides that judicial bypass is her best option. There are no additional fees involved for women who choose to obtain a bypass.

These restrictions aren't as bad as some states have legislated. I think a 24 hour wait and mandated counseling is a good thing, not a burden, if the mandated message is not some lie that the women is going to regret it later.

Some people have a cow that teenagers can get medical care without parental consent. But the reality of the situation is, if a teen has a baby, in most (all?) states the teen can then apply for emancipation. The reason for allowing teens to make some medical decisions for themselves, (STD testing and abortion) is because the evidence is such a policy has more benefits than drawbacks.

If a teenager has to get parental consent to have an abortion, is it any surprise they put off doing anything until the pregnancy is further along? I wonder if it won't turn out this clinic had a lot of clients that were under 18?

 

[bookitty]

But if the babies were born alive and he had to kill them, he was performing very late term abortions. If a baby is viable in the womb, I don't see why seven inches or so makes a difference. I have serious problems with late term abortions.

Abortion might be legal but that doesn't mean it's easy. Many women don't have access to Planned Parenthood or similar clinics and they can't afford a private doctor. There are many rural areas where the nearest clinic is in the next county. Arranging to have someone drive you, planning for an overnight trip, getting time off work, figuring out a babysitter, and saving up for the procedure can take longer than 3-4 months.

From all accounts it was obvious to the patients that this place was unsanitary and unprofessional. They must have been desperate because if they had any place else to go, they wouldn't have been there.

However, if the babies were born alive and he killed them, he is a murderer. PA has infant safe haven laws, the infants could have been legally surrendered and the mother could have remained anonymous.

 

[lionking]

To make things absolutely clear I'm not anti-abortion. I support the laws here which allow abortions up to 20 something weeks.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

However, if the babies were born alive and he killed them, he is a murderer.

No different than if he killed them before they were born, except under a corrupt system of laws that reuses to protect or even acknowledge the lives of the most innocent and defenseless of all human beings.

All abortionists are murderers of the very worst sort. It is a deep shame on our society that they are not treated as the foul criminals that they truly are.

 

[fishbob]

Incindiary, without any content.

Just like a real news show any more.

 

[Puppycow]

No different than if he killed them before they were born, except under a corrupt system of laws that reuses to protect or even acknowledge the lives of the most innocent and defenseless of all human beings.

All abortionists are murderers of the very worst sort. It is a deep shame on our society that they are not treated as the foul criminals that they truly are.

Easy to say if you are a man, who never has to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.

 

[lionking]

Easy to say if you are a man, who never has to worry about an unwanted pregnancy.

Er, what's to stop an abortion in the first 20 weeks?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Er, what's to stop an abortion in the first 20 weeks?

Puppycow was responding to someone saying that all abortionists are murderers - I presume that includes the ones that perform abortions before 20 weeks.

 

[lionking]

Puppycow was responding to someone saying that all abortionists are murderers - I presume that includes the ones that perform abortions before 20 weeks.

Yeah I know.

 

[gumboot]

I in 3 pregnancies ends in a natural abortion.

Jus' sayin'.

 

[lionking]

I in 3 pregnancies ends in a natural abortion.

Jus' sayin'.

And what exactly does that have to do with the OP?

 

[Puppycow]

Er, what's to stop an abortion in the first 20 weeks?

I think women, if they are going to have an abortion, should do it ASAP.
I'm not entirely comfortable with elective late-term abortions either. But I recognize that I can't foresee all possible extenuating circumstances, and I can't see an obvious red line to draw other than birth. Or possibly viability.
Also, I'm not into the idea of adopting someone else's kid who doesn't want it. Therefore, who am I to say they can't have an abortion.

I am for the maximum freedom of reproductive choice as long as it is humane, without appeals to religious dogma or any other woo.

 

[lionking]

I think women, if they are going to have an abortion, should do it ASAP.
I'm not entirely comfortable with elective late-term abortions either. But I recognize that I can't foresee all possible extenuating circumstances, and I can't see an obvious red line to draw other than birth. Or possibly viability.
Also, I'm not into the idea of adopting someone else's kid who doesn't want it. Therefore, who am I to say they can't have an abortion.

I am for the maximum freedom of reproductive choice as long as it is humane, without appeals to religious dogma or any other woo.

Nothing religious about my position. Are you okay with killing a new born baby if the mother doesn't want it, even if she has good reasons?

 

[Vorticity]

This sort of thing could be largely avoided, and we wouldn't even have to have an abortion debate in this country, if there were simply effective sex-ed and cheap, effective birth control for all.

Clinton doctrine: "Safe, legal, and rare."

ETA:

It never ceases to amaze me that the same people who think abortion is murder are also the major campaigners against sex education in schools. Clearly, the best way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. But they then argue that sex education encourages premarital sex, which they consider to be a sin. Even if that were true, it doesn't make any sense: They say abortion is murder, and you'd think murder would be considered the greater sin, wouldn't you? I just don't get the thought process.

 

[Puppycow]

PZ Myers take

Nothing religious about my position. Are you okay with killing a new born baby if the mother doesn't want it, even if she has good reasons?

Of course not.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Er, what's to stop an abortion in the first 20 weeks?

In the state this occurred in, hurdles for teens that lead them to seek out a coat hanger operation over telling their parents about the pregnancy.

 

[Travis]

My personal opinion is that a woman who decides to abort, regardless of where in the pregnancy she is, probably has a good reason to. I'd rather that be done than babies be born into a situation that isn't healthy for them.