Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Draca said:
I viewed part of the Nov 2nd cottage video. At 3:14 pm there is a shot where the cord to the lamp can be seen in the same position as the photos. Also at that time the number and letter placards had not yet been placed around the room. In ths Spheron photo that Chris posted you can see the numbers so the video was taken before spheron photo.

Another thing of note is there was plenty of natural light in the different rooms the cameraman was going through. There was a lot of light coming from the patio windows. Laura's room was probably the dimmest but even there, in the 3pm time frame there was light. It looks like it was a mostly sunny day. When there is video outside or looking out windows from the cottage is looks like a sunny day overall.

Because of the placard we know this photo was taken after 3:14 pm
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=185001314857681&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034
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But if what you say is true, Draca, it's difficult to understand how anyone could describe the room as "quite dark", as one of the eye-witnesses did. The photo you linked to is no measure of the natural light in the room, since it's brightly lit with artificial lighting.

I guess I just think that the police needing to use one light in a dim room is no less likely than one of the other four requiring a third! So on balance, I still find Frank's hint that the police left the lamp in there somewhat more plausible than any other explanation, though obviously nowhere close to definite (my second guess would be Meredith using it. Not Rudy, since he would surely have left traces of blood on it, as he did on the purse).
 
Mary_H said:
I would not have. I have never looked deeply into a case like this before; I always assumed people in these situations each have their own set of supporters who work to get them out, and who often succeed. In fact, that is what Amanda (and Raffaele) have.

The kid on the HarvardPoliticalReview asks: "If the anger towards this case is, as you said, based upon a hate for injustice, then I ask where the rabid and persistent support is for similar domestic cases." This is a criticism that has been leveled against Amanda's supporters many times -- would we be standing up for Amanda if she were poor and of color?Some of us probably would, if we heard about it. Amanda is fortunate in that she has a close, supportive family who have advocated ferociously for her in their own community, and that advocacy has spread. If every victim of injustice had the same type of network, of course it would be to their advantage.

The fact is, though, it's okay to stand up for who we stand up for, and it's okay to care about who we care about. My talents and energy are best suited for supporting one victim of injustice at a time. If I had more talent and more energy, I would advocate for all the poor kids in Seattle, then for all the poor kids in the United States, then all the poor kids in Central America, South America, Africa, Asia, etc. Does the fact that I am not up to those tasks mean I should not stand up for Amanda?

Being of Amanda's "social status" does not guarantee help from a group of supporters every time injustice rears its ugly head. Many people have serious problems they deserve help with, but support is not forthcoming for one reason or another. Yes, Amanda's case initially drew attention because Meredith and she possessed youth and beauty. It draws attention now, though, because the injustice of it is startlingly obvious and beyond ludicrous.
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If the anger towards this case is, as you said, based upon a hate for injustice, then I ask where the rabid and persistent support is for similar domestic cases." This is a criticism that has been leveled against Amanda's supporters many times -- would we be standing up for Amanda if she were poor and of color?

Absolutely. The first five people I vigorously supported were NOT white.
However, it is essential that:

1.) My lawyers have told me that you have to have a good lawyer AND a winnable case.
2.) The accused has to be honest, articulate and intelligent. The case is only as strong as the communication between lawyer and client.
3.) Somebody behind the case has to provide huge resources. The only way that will happen is if the supporter believes strongly in the case, has big bucks, and likes/loves the person he supports.
4.) You have to be mentally tough. Very tough.

Some of the poor people that get in trouble are not sufficiently articulate to even explain the case to their lawyers.

Part of Amanda's problem may have been her attempt to speak in Italian. She may have projected the image of being illiterate because she wasn't - at that time - totally fluent in Italian. Bilingual people always tell me that the second language is never as good as the native language.

The miscalculation of Amanda's intelligence and litteracy - due to the fact she was not speaking in her native tongue - hopefully will come back to hang the people that got her in this trouble.

I was trying to speak in broken Spanish in Peru recently. The Peruvian dentist I went to couldn't speak English. He laughed at some of my mispronounced words (A year ago the only Spanish I knew was from old western movies). I understand what it is like to be an American in a foreign country. Americans don't emphasize foreign languages in their studies.

The trouble in America is that some of the poor can't even speak their native language.
 
lax PR campaign

To all,

Writing in response to an article by a PR person, Jack O'Dwyer, referencing the Duke lacrosse case, KC Johnson said, “Of Nifong’s misconduct (his ethically improper public statements; his ordering the police to run a new lineup confined to suspects, in violation of DPD rules; his lying to the court; his violating North Carolina law by failing to report all results from the DNA tests) O’Dwyer wrote only, ‘Various irregularities were also found in the way [Nifong] presented the case.’
There were villains, however: O’Dwyer chastised the lacrosse players’ attorneys for ‘having conducted a massive PR campaign aimed at discrediting Nifong and Mangum.’ Yet the public statements of the defense attorneys rarely mentioned Mangum’s character…O’Dwyer conveniently overlooked how Nifong gave more than a dozen interviews (with local, state, and national media) before the attorneys for the lacrosse players spoke to any reporter; and that Nifong’s publicity barrage continued right up until a lengthy late December 2006 interview with the New York Times. In O’Dwyer’s world, these comments apparently get a pass, but defense attorneys should have remained silent.”
(Highlighting added)

Massive PR campaigns, real or imagined, cannot trump facts.
 
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Danceme said:
Bringing this along. I posted it two pages back now with no response and I'd like to hear some theories if anyone has any, on why Ron Hendry sees evidence of a cleanup in the murder room. Who cleaned up and why?

If I recall correctly (let me see, yes I do) much has been written by many innocentisti on there being absolutely NO evidence of a cleanup anywhere, at all. Ron thinks an attempt was made obviously.
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I don't see what has changed. We have always known about the white towel, green towel and bedsheet that had significant blood on them. No one has ever said they were originally lying on the floor. The white towel in particular is soaked.

Rudy Guede's own story is he went to get towels to help MK and held them to her neck to try and stem the blood flow. He realized it was hopeless and left frantically without calling emergency. He may have wiped up some of the blood right around MK at the same time. I think him stepping on the drenched towel is a good explantation of the bloody shoe prints that are in the bedroom and lead down the hall and out the door.

When I think of a - clean up - the words have been used to say Amanda and Raffaele came back and cleaned all traces of themselves out of the bedroom. The story of the purchase of bleach at 7am and then going to the cottage to clean it in the morning. There was no trace of bleach used and no signs of a - clean up - meaning attempt to remove there traces in the bedroom. I do believe Steve Moore and Ron Hendry are correct that it would have been impossible. There is too much blood on the floor and no clothes missing. They could not have removed their own shoe prints without leaving traces of this while still leaving Rudy Guede's shoeprints. Fingerprints, hair and other traces as well.
 
Alt+F4 said:
My original point was that English-speaking journalists and/or bloggers have no effect on what's going on with this case. The fact that Mignini didn't even bother to follow up on his lawsuit threat proves this. What people post on Internt forums means even less.

Like I said, if you want to help the Knox defense, send them money. You're only deluding yourself if you think what you post online matters as to how this appeal turns out.
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I don't think I'm "deluding myself" at all, and in fact I'm really talking in general about the impact of the internet (news articles as well as less formal mediums like blogs and forums) on very high profile cases, though obviously the Kercher murder is a prime example of this sort of case. It seems only common sense to me that if media coverage impacts on legal proceedings at all (and unfortunately, it does) and if public discussion of a case can lead to it being reopened (it can and it has), then obviously the internet is of great significance in both these areas. I think we're only beginning to understand the impact it is having, and after Knox and Sollecito are acquitted, as I think they probably will be, the way the case was played out in the media and the internet culture that grew up around it, as well as the impact these had on the case itself (or rather, the way they were totally inseparable from it) will doubtless be explored in numerous studies.

And yes, of course it crosses international and linguistic boundaries - it's exactly this that makes the effect of the internet so much greater than any other medium before it. A Google Alert will return news articles regardless of the language in which they are written. As an example of this inter-language reporting, the article in the English-language newspaper the Independent mentioned earlier in the thread was picked up by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica, and then republished here and elsewhere. It seems quite obvious to me that - in the absence of a perfect legal system - these things have an impact.
 
CDHost said:
.......Had Meredith been treated as just a murder victim and not a virtual saint most likely we would know what really happened today. I'm going to give a list below of the sorts of things police typically look at when trying to determine who committed a murder. Its going to sound like virtual heresy when I basically start listing this off but these are the kinds of questions that should have been asked:

  1. Investigate Meredith's activities
    • What was the true extent of Giacomo Silenzi's drug involvement
    • What was true extent of Meredith's role?
  2. Investigate Meredith's previous living situations. Had their been similar incidents? Look especially at a history of bullying.
  3. Investigate Meredith's romantic habits. Key to the case has been that she wouldn't cheat on Giacomo with Rudy, verify that.
  4. Investigate Meredith's personal drug habit. Was Rudy there for reasons other than sex.
  5. We know there have been a lots of murders in Perugia involving knives and overkill of prostitutes. Determine if Meredith was tricking. Was she involved in the industry?
The fact is we know nothing about Meredith, hence we don't know motive and hence we have a murder case that doesn't make any sense. It could be that nothing on this or the expanded list would have panned out and she really was just a 22 year old college student, who didn't like her roommate but didn't do much about it, and essentially randomly ended up getting involved in a torture/rape/murder. But that's very unlikely.
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You know you are SO going to get your rear kicked for this, right? :p

You are right; those questions should have been asked.
 
Justinian2 said:
......Part of Amanda's problem may have been her attempt to speak in Italian. She may have projected the image of being illiterate because she wasn't - at that time - totally fluent in Italian. Bilingual people always tell me that the second language is never as good as the native language.
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Excellent point, Justinian. It is very easy to become impatient when trying to communicate with someone who does not speak your language.
 
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Amanda and Raffaele were both very naive about Italian justice. Although Raffaele's sister was in the Carabinieri, he seemed to have little knowledge of how the Italian justice system works. Amanda should never have tried using Italian during her interrogations. There was a very big misunderstanding of many things she said.
By the way, I am relatively new here and didn't realize Halides1 has a blog site. I would like to visit the site if it would be acceptable.
 
Poppy1016 said:
Amanda and Raffaele were both very naive about Italian justice. Although Raffaele's sister was in the Carabinieri, he seemed to have little knowledge of how the Italian justice system works. Amanda should never have tried using Italian during her interrogations. There was a very big misunderstanding of many things she said.
By the way, I am relatively new here and didn't realize Halides1 has a blog site. I would like to visit the site if it would be acceptable.
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It is probably not a bad idea to compile a list of websites discussing this case. There are a few newer ones around and most of the lists are older.

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/index.html
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/
http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/
http://www.sciencespheres.com/
http://alternatetheories-perugiamurder.blogspot.com/
http://amandaknoxappealforum.blogspot.com/
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/
http://perugiamurderfile.org/
http://truejustice.org/

Who am I forgetting?
 
RoseMontague said:
It is probably not a bad idea to compile a list of websites discussing this case. There are a few newer ones around and most of the lists are older.

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/index.html
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/
http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/
http://boards.insessiontrials.com/
http://knoxarchives.blogspot.com/
http://www.sciencespheres.com/
http://alternatetheories-perugiamurder.blogspot.com/
http://amandaknoxappealforum.blogspot.com/
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/
http://perugiamurderfile.org/
http://truejustice.org/

Who am I forgetting?
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http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/
http://missrepresented.net/
Statement Analysis

and how could you forget:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/tags.php?tag=Amanda+Knox
 
Danceme said:
Who's quote is that? I thought Amanda and Raffaele were out in the kitchen area when the door was broken down so neither of them could have seen in. The angle of vision just wouldn't have been there.


On another note, from Ron Hendry's report,

"A close inspection of the photos also shows that the killer wiped blood from several areas near where Meredith's body was found. This would account for the large amount of blood found on the large white towel lying on the floor. A green towel and the top bed sheet may have also been used to wipe up blood on the floor."

and,

"In the photo above, the areas inside and perhaps near the outline appear to have been wiped. Areas by the bed also had this appearance."

Is he actually saying there's evidence of a cleanup?
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_____________________________________

I noticed that Hendry managed to mis-identify which stab wound to Meredith's neck was the fatal wound.

Wounds and injuries suffered by Meredith Kercher, by Ron Hendry HERE

In fact, it wasn't the largest wound which severed her thyroid artery, leading to her internal bleeding and death. See Massei Report, English Translation, pages 140 -141, on the PMF website.

///
 
halides1 said:
CD Host,

You make some interesting points, but I am not sure that Meredith did or did not like Amanda. Undoubtedly there were minor points of friction, such as over household chores and the need to use a brush when flushing. Meredith's English friends may have subconsciously exaggerated the degree of friction. However, the two went to the chocolate festival together, and Meredith signed her last text message to Amanda with an "x." Laura, no friend of Amanda's by the time of the trial, described Meredith's relationship with Amanda as "normal" in her testimony, IIRC. It is possible that I am mixing up Laura and Filomena, but either way, it does not sound like Meredith and Amanda were on bad terms.
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What occurred to me whilst reading the 'evidence' of Meredith and Amanda being at odds is they sounded so much like the sorts of complaints one could find amongst many married couples. Analogous might be a wife who loves her husband very much, but has long standing concerns about the husband's dedication to the (im)proper position of the toilet seat, the fact he sings along with songs sometimes in public, tells risque jokes on occasion and doesn't do as much housework as he should.
 
Silenzi's testimony

Kaosium said:
What occurred to me whilst reading the 'evidence' of Meredith and Amanda being at odds is they sounded so much like the sorts of complaints one could find amongst many married couples. Analogous might be a wife who loves her husband very much, but has long standing concerns about the husband's dedication to the (im)proper position of the toilet seat, the fact he sings along with songs sometimes in public, tells risque jokes on occasion and doesn't do as much housework as he should.
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kaosium,

Giacomo Silenzi also testified that Meredith and Amanda got along, in addition to Filomena.
 
halides1 said:
kaosium,

Giacomo Silenzi also testified that Meredith and Amanda got along, in addition to Filomena.
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And, IIRC, one of Meredith's English friends in Italy said that if Meredith was not spending time with them (the English friends), she was hanging out with Knox. Which would tend to be borne out by the two girls visiting the Chocolate Festival a couple of weeks before the murder*, and their joint attendance at the classical concert just six days before the murder.

* In 2007, the Eurochocolate Festival in Perugia took place between 13th-21st October.
 
Malkmus said:
The fact that there is absolutely no "fourth" and that he claims there are more by saying "at least four" is a lie. There's no way around that. Once you look at the other statements in context, a rational person realizes that the two statements during the interrogation should only count as one time, and in her letter on the 6th she recounts her actions the night of the murder and does not include meeting Patrick in that recounting. At best there were two claims made during one interrogation, but I think it's stretching to count those as two separate accounts- and especially when you consider that it was the police remembering for her those events.
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Does anyone have any idea why Mr Rag (and others of his ilk) are now putting the length of Knox's night interrogation on 5th/6th November at around 2 hours 45 minutes? I thought the party line was that there was "barely enough time to set the chairs out" before Knox "blurted out" her (false) confession/accusation. But 2.45 hours is of course more than enough time for a progressively coercive approach to have been applied by the surprisingly-numerous-for-a-run-of-the-mill-witness-interview Perugia Flying Squad who were there that night. Has the party line changed....?
 
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