Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

case#46cw39 said:
Right but he didn't act on it until afterwards, and the vitriolic rhetoric filled the airwaves, and where he was is called the mecca (ground zero) of it all.

That doesn't mean Palin specifically inflamed what was lying dormant in him. But he was clearly a political activist. I can't believe he wasn't plugged into the vitriolic political rhetoric all around him.
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I don't think Palin is to blame for the shooting, I think it probably still would have happened even without the vitriolic political rhetoric.

However, that doesn't make the vitriolic political rhetoric alright.
 
ProbeX said:
"Indeed, one piece of evidence collected so far is a 2007 letter from Giffords's office to Mr. Loughner, thanking him for attending a meet-and-greet event. On it is scrawled a death threat to Giffords. In 2007, Sarah Palin was a little-known Alaska governor and the tea party movement did not exist."

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2011/0112/As-portrait-of-Jared-Loughner-sharpens-vitriol-blame-fades
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The letter was written in 2007. By what means was it determined that the death threat was also scrawled in 2007?
 
thaiboxerken said:
Get off your high horse. The Tea Party was founded with hyperbole and vitriol.
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Why even go there? If you agree that American political discourse is in the toilet, then what is the point of this post? Are you trying to ruin it even further for the sake of blowing off steam? I don't think it's worth it.

Travis said:
Well don't apologize for idealism. It's just frustrating going into small businesses these days and hearing rant after rant after rant about how all the Democrats are traitors to America and how good patriots must vote for conservatives. Which leaves you sitting there wondering 1) why isn't there competition so I can take my registered Democrat business elsewhere and 2) when did this become a war where there is no inkling of even contemplating cooperation and only the complete destruction of the other side will suffice?

That's what's frustrating. I know that there many Democrats such as myself that would love to work with everyone so it's dispiriting to see that everyone you encounter from the "other side" wants nothing to do with you outside of your complete political neutering. That's what makes it look like they don't even think you are human anymore. They want nothing to do with you outside of defeating you. It's like merely winning the races, showing the Democrats up, is the endgame.
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I don't really blame you. I think the reason that negativity is so prevalent in politics is because it's so easy. Analyzing and debating ideas on their merit is hard work. "You're just a dumb a-hole," is simple.

I'm not expecting everyone to mature on these topics, but if enough of us rise above it, then we can marginalize the negative attitude that is damaging this country.
 
ProbeX said:
....

Skeptic Ginger claimed that "fear the government' campaign tactics also increases the likelihood that such an unstable person will act out their paranoia." That claim requires substantial evidence in the form of human behavior studies.
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Oh puhleese. There are countless examples of people taking this kind of vitriol to heart and acting on it.


Well I did post this in the other thread but it also applies here. I believe the following is being overlooked here:

Loughner's writings from 3 weeks prior to his action included these two uncannily current event related entries:
December 15, 2010:

The majority of citizens in the United States of America have never read the United States of America's Constitution.

You don't have to accept the federalist laws.

Nonetheless, read the United States of America's Constitution to apprehend all of the current treasonous laws.

You're literate, listener?

-----

December 15, 2010:

In conclusion, reading the second United States constitution I can't trust the current government because of the ratifications: the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar.

No! I won't pay debt with a currency that's not backed by gold and silver!

No! I wont trust in God!
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(emphasis mine)

When did the Repubs start talking about how they were going to read the Constitution on the first day of the new Congressional session?

It's very suggestive that this disturbed person was following the unconstitutional government charges that the Tea Party and subsequently the Repubs put forward as the key focus of their campaign. You can certainly say the evidence is not "proof". But it's a lie that there is nothing linking this shooter to the incessant fear-the-illegitimate-government vitriol of the last 2 years.
 
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Travis said:
That's what's frustrating. I know that there many Democrats such as myself that would love to work with everyone so it's dispiriting to see that everyone you encounter from the "other side" wants nothing to do with you outside of your complete political neutering.
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Isn't this exactly the sort of generalization we're supposed to be combating?
 
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Actually I think my ill-thought out post stands as a good example of what we are talking about. I thought about blaming it on my personal frustrations but that really doesn't excuse it. I think it should stay there as a demonstration of how some of us can fan the flames without even realizing it.
 
Travis said:
Actually I think my ill-thought out post stands as a good example of what we are talking about. I thought about blaming it on my personal frustrations but that really doesn't excuse it. I think it should stay there as a demonstration of how some of us can fan the flames without even realizing it.
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In contrast, I actually re-wrote my own post. Originally it was an explanation of WHY we don't want to work with you. :blush:
My point being that it comes from all sides.
 
ProbeX said:
You've moved the goal post. You couldn't make a connection between Ron Paul's "currency" and Loughner's use of the word, so now you're back to generalizing tea party rhetoric. And you still have no evidence he was influenced by the tea party. None. Nada. Ziltch.
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At least get straight what I've said.

1) The Repubs are recklessly using government fear mongering as a campaign tactic against the Democrats that were/are in office, especially Obama. Palin's map and subsequent bragging about reloading, as well as Angle's Second Amendment remedies are examples of this campaign tactic. The government is so bad it should be taken out, is the message. Palin may very well think that means by votes, that's the goal of fear mongering.
2) But fear mongering can also have unintended consequences. One of those unintended consequences is the potential for fear mongering to incite unstable people to act out.
3) There was evidence Loughner was following current political rhetoric in Loughner's writings and videos. His comments about the unconstitutional government and the gold standard echo Ron Paul's beliefs and the Tea & Repub Parties' the-government-is-unconstitutional campaign.
4) Loughner was clearly one of those unstable people with the potential to act out.


So just where in that position statement or anywhere else in my posts have I ever claimed there was a connection between everything Loughner incorporated into his delusions and his actions?



ProbeX said:
[snipped more straw]

Instead of attacking the APA and avoiding taking responsibility for your claim, why not provide whatever evidence you feel will reflect the alleged reality of your claim? The APA sounded like a logical starting point, considering this is a human behavioral matter and there are a plethora of psychiatric studies collected by the APA.
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Now you imagine I'm attacking the APA?

Tell you what. You believe what you want. I don't think I need to post more than I already have in response to your comments.
 
BenBurch said:
I want to see a MRI of his head. Some of the behaviors people have reported match a frontal lobe tumor.
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My guess is he'll now get a very thorough mental and physical health exam he should have gotten earlier.

But I'm curious how a frontal lobe tumor would cause disorganized thought and paranoid delusions?
 
Watching the livestream of the memorial service now. Wow... Gov. Jan Brewer is a class-act; she just spoke, and I have a new-found respect for her :)
 
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MattusMaximus said:
Watching the livestream of the memorial service now. Wow... Gov. Jan Brewer is a class-act; she just spoke, and I have a new-found respect for her :)
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I'm watching it as well. A couple observations:

1) I'm surprised at the loud cheering and screaming from the crowd. I think it's actually better than somber rememberance, but it seems more like a rally than a memorial.

2) Lot of thanking god and asking for protection. I have to ask who was on watch when those people got shot.
 
MattusMaximus said:
Watching the livestream of the memorial service now. Wow... Gov. Jan Brewer is a class-act; she just spoke, and I have a new-found respect for her :)
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I actually found new respect for her when I found out she greatly expanded mental health coverage in AZ and cautioned against the consequences when the funding cuts by the legislature resulted in severe cutbacks to those services in just the last couple years.
 
TraneWreck said:
I'm watching it as well. A couple observations:

1) I'm surprised at the loud cheering and screaming from the crowd. I think it's actually better than somber rememberance, but it seems more like a rally than a memorial.
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I noticed that as well, but I think in many ways it is a celebration of life.

2) Lot of thanking god and asking for protection. I have to ask who was on watch when those people got shot.
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Yeah, Holder is quoting some Scripture now as well. But none of this surprises me, seeing as how most people are religious. Heck, the opening prayer was performed by a Native American medicine man.

But we should also note there is a lot of secular speech as well, so I'm not going to quibble with it.

ETA: Looks like President Obama is up next... and the crowd goes wild.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
At least get straight what I've said.

1) The Repubs are recklessly using government fear mongering as a campaign tactic against the Democrats that were/are in office, especially Obama. Palin's map and subsequent bragging about reloading, as well as Angle's Second Amendment remedies are examples of this campaign tactic. The government is so bad it should be taken out, is the message. Palin may very well think that means by votes, that's the goal of fear mongering.
2) But fear mongering can also have unintended consequences. One of those unintended consequences is the potential for fear mongering to incite unstable people to act out.
3) There was evidence Loughner was following current political rhetoric in Loughner's writings and videos. His comments about the unconstitutional government and the gold standard echo Ron Paul's beliefs and the Tea & Repub Parties' the-government-is-unconstitutional campaign.
4) Loughner was clearly one of those unstable people with the potential to act out.


So just where in that position statement or anywhere else in my posts have I ever claimed there was a connection between everything Loughner incorporated into his delusions and his actions?



Now you imagine I'm attacking the APA?

Tell you what. You believe what you want. I don't think I need to post more than I already have in response to your comments.
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Actually, I think I was the one attacking the APA and you were using them as a source of research. Perhaps I am confused over this.:)
 
TraneWreck said:
I'm watching it as well. A couple observations:

1) I'm surprised at the loud cheering and screaming from the crowd. I think it's actually better than somber rememberance, but it seems more like a rally than a memorial.

....
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I agree. The orchestra's opening piece was not very memorial like. And the cheering over the 'native' Arizonian was weird.

It reminds me of Paul Wellstone's funeral.

Well, let's see if Obama can bring it back to a memorial and not a rally.
 
MattusMaximus said:
I noticed that as well, but I think in many ways it is a celebration of life.



Yeah, Holder is quoting some Scripture now as well. But none of this surprises me, seeing as how most people are religious. Heck, the opening prayer was performed by a Native American medicine man.

But we should also note there is a lot of secular speech as well, so I'm not going to quibble with it.

ETA: Looks like President Obama is up next...
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The NAMM is a real doctor also according to his intro and at least one later mention!!:)
 
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