Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

Monketey Ghost said:
I hear lots about gun control. But, speaking as a liberal, this is looking like a problem gun control can't solve: the random nutcase.

In Japan, they go apes*** and stab s*** up, like schools.
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True, a crazy person that wants to kill will most likely find a way. However as a gun owning liberal I have zero problem with people not having 33 round clips. It appears that Jared was not very proficient with his gun having only owned it for a few months and was having trouble with it when he decided to reload. If he had less bullets we would be looking at less death.

My concealed carry piece is a .40 Kahr. It holds seven rounds and one in the pipe. Most gun fights occur at a distance of less than 5 feet. If I can't hit a target from 5 feet with 8 tries I shouldn't be firing a gun in the first place. I practice at up to 25 feet but I spend most of my range time at 5 and 10 feet.

I think we can reasonably say that having the capacity to fire 66 rounds with two clips is way more than anyone needs for self defense. At that point you are carrying an offensive weapon.

You can argue that in the hands of a crazy person one bullet is one to many but what really is the need for citizens to carry that many rounds in one clip? I always laugh when I see open carry with 5 or six extra clips, I assume the owner is a terrible shot.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
I hear lots about gun control. But, speaking as a liberal, this is looking like a problem gun control can't solve: the random nutcase.

In Japan, they go apes*** and stab s*** up, like schools.
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So it never dawned on you to look at the murder rate differences between countries where guns are common and countries where they are not? The fact any murders occur makes the situations equal?

:rolleyes:

Murder rates by country 2010

Similar data (older) adding in gun ownership comparisons
 
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Lowpro said:
Really Skeptic Ginger? That's a little bitchy to say...

Anyways the guy was mentally unhinged. He entertained paranoid delusions. Telly pretty much said it perfectly only used the wrong specific diagnosis...
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What? You don't understand mental illness diagnoses so you question how anyone else could know and I'm bitchy for pointing that out?
 
stilicho said:
His pattern of thoughts are pretty orderly. Pleading the Fifth? Come on. What exactly is so disordered about retaining a lawyer and pleading the Fifth?

The fortunate part of this is that he couldn't reload after emptying his clip and shoot himself. He didn't think he'd be confronted afterwards and could endlessly fire until committing suicide and avoiding the enormity of his crime. Now that he actually was disarmed, arrested, and charged, he's doing what any other normal person would by excercising his rights as one of your fellow citizens.
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I think other people have already addressed why it is clear Loughner's ramblings are indicative of the disorganized thought processes of the mental illness, schizophrenia. But it appears many people still do not understand what the condition is or what saying, someone has disorganized thought, means.

Disorganized thought processes do not mean one is a blathering blob unable to brush their teeth or put a key in a vehicle and drive a car. It can be that severe in some cases, but it can also be just one component of a person's behavior and in the case of paranoid schizophrenia, sometimes people appear extremely rational. If you didn't know that their claims were delusional, you might even find the person's claims of being followed or spied on very convincing. Schizophrenics can also be extremely intelligent, but nonetheless, dysfunctionally delusional.

In addition, sometimes disorganized thought is only a minor component and not the most prominent component of schizophrenia. Here is an outline of 2 subtypes of schizophrenia and what the diagnosis entails.
Paranoid type

The patient meets the basic criteria for Schizophrenia (page 122).

The patient is preoccupied with delusions or frequent auditory hallucinations.

None of these symptoms is prominent:
Disorganized speech
Disorganized behavior
Inappropriate or flat affect
Catatonic behavior

Disorganized type

The patient meets the basic criteria for Schizophrenia (page 122).

All of these symptoms are prominent:
disorganized behavior
disorganized speech
affect that is flat or inappropriate

The patient does not fulfill criteria for Catatonic Schizophrenia
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You can go to the link to see the criteria for Schizophrenia. I've posted the criteria for 2 of the subtypes.


I don't understand the hostility in this thread to claims that the YouTube videos and MySpace writings of Loughner show classic disorganized thought. There are a slew of professional opinions in the media interviews that concur.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
So it never dawned on you to look at the murder rate differences between countries where guns are common and countries where they are not? The fact any murders occur makes the situations equal?

:rolleyes:

Murder rates by country 2010

Similar data (older) adding in gun ownership comparisons
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The interesting thing about the second table is that there are several countries with very high levels of gun ownership (e.g., Norway, Switzerland and Canada) which have relatively low firearm homicide compared to the USA. In all of those countries (and most of the others), non-gun homicide is larger than firearm homicide, but in the USA it's the other way round.

So if the table is to be believed the proportion of the population who own firearms doesn't really explain the incidence of homicide in a country, so there must be other more important factors which affect it.

Two that spring to mind are the USA's lack of a universal healthcare system and its culture of "must be a winner".
 
applecorped said:
Even with your "many" qualifer which you posted after getting called on it, this is nice example of the rhetoric that so many here are talking about. Way to stoke the fire.
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Get off your high horse. The Tea Party was founded with hyperbole and vitriol.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
The interesting thing about the second table is that there are several countries with very high levels of gun ownership (e.g., Norway, Switzerland and Canada) which have relatively low firearm homicide compared to the USA. In all of those countries (and most of the others), non-gun homicide is larger than firearm homicide, but in the USA it's the other way round.

So if the table is to be believed the proportion of the population who own firearms doesn't really explain the incidence of homicide in a country, so there must be other more important factors which affect it.

Two that spring to mind are the USA's lack of a universal healthcare system and its culture of "must be a winner".
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I don't know about Norway and Switzerland, but I do know about Canada. Handgun ownership is strictly limited and most automatics are banned:
As of January 1, 2001, the procedures for bringing firearms into Canada, or for borrowing firearms while in Canada, change as a result of mandatory license requirements for all firearms owners and users in Canada.

Canadian firearms laws severely restrict the types of guns persons can legally posses. In addition, the laws apply equally to both Canadian citizens and to anyone bringing or shipping guns into Canada, or borrowing guns while in Canada.

Under the Canadian Firearms Act, the three classes of firearms are:

Non-restricted (most ordinary rifles and shotguns);
Restricted (mainly handguns); and
Prohibited (full automatics, converted automatics, handguns with a barrel length of 105 mm (approx. 4") or less, and .25 or .32 caliber handguns among others).
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My guess is you'll see something similar in Norway and Switzerland.
 
There's a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there's no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It's with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there's only one, the gender is not male or female. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you'll understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
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From JLL's youtubes. It's not about the lack of ability to follow through on plans, it's about how premises and conclusions sort of detach themselves.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Interviews with diagnosed schizophrenics that sound rational in between relating their delusions:
...
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.
But with the Daily Show, there are no interruptions of sanity with insanity.
Jon and staff are the most rational news and fake news reporters on the tube.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Interviews with diagnosed schizophrenics that sound rational in between relating their delusions:
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The second video is a dramatization. The guy is an actor and not an actual schizophrenic, but the dialogue is taken directly from an interview with a genuine schizophrenic.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Interviews with diagnosed schizophrenics that sound rational in between relating their delusions:
....]
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I missed the connection between your linked videos and this:

I Ratant said:
"I've watched the bit 3 times now, and that [Jon Stewart on The Daily Show] is the pinnacle of rational thought."

Could you clarify your point here please? Thanks.
 
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Bob Blaylock said:
And how is that claim not, completely in and of itself, an example of exactly the sort of hyperbole and vitriol that you purport to denounce?
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It's not hyperbole or vitriol if it's fact. The Tea Party was founded on the idea that the USA government has been taken over by a bunch of socialists.
 
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