Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson


Wow, what a bunch of scumbags. Even if Tea Party rhetoric & ideology had nothing to do with these shootings, this shows me just how callous, selfish, and low these folks (that is, the Tea Party Express) are willing to stoop in order to make money & push their political ideology. These jerks really are scraping the bottom of the barrel :mad:
 
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President Obama is coming to Tucson for a memorial service tomorrow night. It will be held at our college basketball arena. Its first come first serve with the doors opening at 4pm. I own a coffee shop and could close early to get in line but I have some concerns.

1. Its a small stadium and this has really affected Tucson. I am sure it will be packed so I might not get in.
2. Is this not the perfect opportunity for a copy cat shooter?

On the other hand Its not often a POTUS visits Tucson and I would love the chance to hear and see him in person.

What to do?
Presidents come with plenty of secret service. I say go.
 
And like the Left is not going to use the shooting to raise funds.....

I wouldn't be surprised if some do, but do we have any evidence that such is the case now?

Otherwise, your statement is nothing more than tu quoque.

And, once more in case I didn't make myself clear, the Tea Party Express is a bunch of money-grubbing scumbags :mad:
 
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...
Which is my point. Don't let them blur the distinctions. And those of us who are not Republicans shouldn't blur it, either. Certainly not for cheap gotchas......
Sorry, misread "don't let them blur the distinctions". How do you propose that be done?

But as for, we shouldn't blur it either, well when they stop doing it get back to me.
 
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President Obama is coming to Tucson for a memorial service tomorrow night. It will be held at our college basketball arena. Its first come first serve with the doors opening at 4pm. I own a coffee shop and could close early to get in line but I have some concerns.

1. Its a small stadium and this has really affected Tucson. I am sure it will be packed so I might not get in.
2. Is this not the perfect opportunity for a copy cat shooter?

This was one of my concerns as well. But I think President Obama's doing the right thing. I would expect no less from my President.

On the other hand Its not often a POTUS visits Tucson and I would love the chance to hear and see him in person.

What to do?

If you go, take pictures please!

And if Fred Phelps and his band of idiots show up, flip them the bird for me.
 
For a bit of good news, Rep. Giffords is able to breathe on her own. According to The New York Times (about halfway down the page):
On Tuesday morning, doctors said that Ms. Giffords had shown no increase in brain swelling and was now able to breathe on her own. They said, however, that they intended to keep the wounded congresswoman on a ventilator as a precaution.

Dr. G. Michael Lemole Jr., chief of neurosurgery at University Medical Center, said Ms. Giffords remained in stable condition. She was hospitalized after being shot in the head at point-blank range. “I am happy to say that she is holding her own,” Dr. Lemole said. “She is able to generate her own breath.”
 
I can't even do that NOW.

In the crowd at the AZ shooting was a fellow with a holstered weapon. He did not get it un-holstered before the shooting was all over.

If you think your piece gives you an assurance of safety, you probably shouldn't be carrying one.
I was going to bring this up but there hasn't been a place to. After the VA Tech shooting there was a big right wing call for allowing guns on campus believing there would have been someone there who could have stopped the shooter sooner. And maybe with a shooting that lasted as long as the VA Tech shooting did there was a tiny chance it would have mattered.

But during this incident there was at least one and probably more than one armed person nearby and it was not a gun that stopped this guy.
 
Sorry, misread "don't let them blur the distinctions". How do you propose that be done?

All I can do is try to point out to them that this is not a good idea for them even in their own terms. Other than that, I'm currently at a loss.

By the way, I was responding to what your wrote first, before you edited it, and I realized something I hadn't thought of before. Conservatives already understand the importance of moderates speaking out against extremists. Hmmm....
 
Being a skeptic, I'm sure you looked for some verification of this - especially given the lack of any mainstream reporting and the questions raised by some. I haven't been able to find any credible verification of this voter registration screenshot - either version - got a cite?

I did find this (makes sense):



I'll add that the address would seem to be from the Secretary of State's records, not Loughner's typing, so the "Tuscon" thing would make even less sense. However, you posted the corrected version, that now says "Tucson" instead of "Tuscon."
Yeah, you're right. Shortly after posting this I headed over to the actual voter registration site. You either need a license # or voter ID to check the info.

It's gotta be a bunk image.
 
Expect very long lines and lots of metal detectors.

Also expect the Secret Service to have checked and determined all possible lines of sight to the POTUS and to have those areas very heavily guarded, etc. It should be fine to go.
 
....
... but, we have to remind ourselves that we still don't know what - in this particular instance - the motivation was for the shooter to commit these atrocities.....
It doesn't matter! That is not what we are talking about here when we talk about the incessant vitriol triggering this particular event.

The motivation in this case and with this kind of mental illness would not be a specific political belief. The guy's brain was a jumble of disorganized thought. It was not some misguided but calculated radical right wing belief system. But the constant background noise of 'fear your government' very likely contributed to his finally acting on his delusions. And even if it did not in this case, the problem of the incessant vitriol potentially pushing an unstable person over the edge is undeniable!
 
The other thing mostly missing from the debate is a discussion of violence itself in the context of democracy.

Following on from my earlier main comment, I would say that the political issue at hand is not only about media and language. Underneath that it's about what are acceptable tactics for achieving political goals, specifically a question about tactics such as violence, threats of violence, and physical intimidation.

There are clearly many Americans (not a huge number, but still many) who reject the rules of pluralist civil society and democratic processes. Why that is may be worth its own thread. But the problem before us here happens when people in "the system" flirt with these uncivil factions by playing with their fantasies about armed rebellion. Whether it is an electioneering politician or a pundit with a large audience, such appeals legitimate those attitudes and tactics. The rejectionists are then encouraged by this legitimization to keep it up, or intensify it.

I think that what has many people afraid or concerned is that political violence and threats of murder, winked at by those who are supposed to be quelling it, are a personal danger in the near-term and ultimately a threat to democratic civil society and self-government.

Is it really such a good idea to appeal to people who reject pluralistic, democratic discussion? That's one way to create the proverbial monster. But how do you convince those who should already know better that they should steer clear of appealing to such factions? And what else is necessary to get U.S. civil society to step back from the brink that so many people seem to want it to leap?

I wish I had more answers. Maybe this discussion can point us toward some.
 
All I can do is try to point out to them that this is not a good idea for them even in their own terms. Other than that, I'm currently at a loss.

By the way, I was responding to what your wrote first, before you edited it, and I realized something I hadn't thought of before. Conservatives already understand the importance of moderates speaking out against extremists. Hmmm....
I'm glad you saw my re-write.

I do think the problem of the Repub leadership courting extremists is going to continue until the leadership decides there is more negative blowback than election benefits. Not sure how long it is going to take before they are sorry for what they wished for. If Palin wins the 2012 Party nom, you can bet there will be regrets. If Boehner can't reign in the freshmen Congresspersons it might be sooner than that. But if the Repubs keep benefitting in votes and have few consequences, it will not be changing anytime soon.
 
The other thing mostly missing from the debate is a discussion of violence itself in the context of democracy.

Following on from my earlier main comment, I would say that the political issue at hand is not only about media and language. Underneath that it's about what are acceptable tactics for achieving political goals, specifically a question about tactics such as violence, threats of violence, and physical intimidation.

There are clearly many Americans (not a huge number, but still many) who reject the rules of pluralist civil society and democratic processes. Why that is may be worth its own thread. But the problem before us here happens when people in "the system" flirt with these uncivil factions by playing with their fantasies about armed rebellion. Whether it is an electioneering politician or a pundit with a large audience, such appeals legitimate those attitudes and tactics. The rejectionists are then encouraged by this legitimization to keep it up, or intensify it.

I think that what has many people afraid or concerned is that political violence and threats of murder, winked at by those who are supposed to be quelling it, are a personal danger in the near-term and ultimately a threat to democratic civil society and self-government.

Is it really such a good idea to appeal to people who reject pluralistic, democratic discussion? That's one way to create the proverbial monster. But how do you convince those who should already know better that they should steer clear of appealing to such factions? And what else is necessary to get U.S. civil society to step back from the brink that so many people seem to want it to leap?

I wish I had more answers. Maybe this discussion can point us toward some.

That's right on the money and at the heart of it all. For an idea of such current discourse and events since June of 2011 see:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6753874&postcount=1699
 
But the constant background noise of 'fear your government' very likely contributed to his finally acting on his delusions.

Of course...the "fear your government" noise was perfectly OK back when Liberals were claiming that fascist dictator George W Bush was trying to take away our rights and spy on us all...right?

:rolleyes:
 
It doesn't matter! That is not what we are talking about here when we talk about the incessant vitriol triggering this particular event.

You don't yet have the evidence that Loughner's actions were caused by "incessant vitriol".

The motivation in this case and with this kind of mental illness would not be a specific political belief. The guy's brain was a jumble of disorganized thought. It was not some misguided but calculated radical right wing belief system. But the constant background noise of 'fear your government' very likely contributed to his finally acting on his delusions. And even if it did not in this case, the problem of the incessant vitriol potentially pushing an unstable person over the edge is undeniable!

Again, evidence?

I'm sorry, but I set the bar just a bit higher than you, methinks.

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you or anyone else here when you state that vitriolic political speech is problematic. I am just not yet convinced that, in this case, it was a factor in Loughner going all kill-crazy. If solid evidence to the contrary is provided, I will happily change my mind. Until then, I remain agnostic on the question.

ETA: Once again, not everyone who shoots a politician does so with political motives - remember John Hinckley, Jr.
 
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Of course...the "fear your government" noise was perfectly OK back when Liberals were claiming that fascist dictator George W Bush was trying to take away our rights and spy on us all...right?

:rolleyes:

The sword does seem to cut both ways, doesn't it?
 
If he wants to crawl out the back door that's all well and good, but it isn't the result of anyone else's machinations.

that's cute.

the wager is still good, by the way.

if anyone can find evidence of someone calling for the amending of the 1st Amendment, I will Paypal them $20.

and yes, it has to be an honest statement. it can't be a typo, error, misprint, mistake, etc etc etc.
 

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