Israel tears down 80 year old hotel to make way for Jews ONLY

[Undesired Walrus]

You could have sent this via PM, rather than embarrassing me in public.

But I hope that was not your intention.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

No, it wasn't. Just helping you out.

 

[Thunder]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

No, it wasn't. Just helping you out.

hmmm...

 

[PhantomWolf]

yes, that is unacceptable and disgraceful. I thought NZ was a liberal democracy.

I guess I was wrong. I can now scratch NZ off my "nations to visit" list.

Wonderful to see exactly how tolerant and accepting of other cultures you are Thunder.

 

[Thunder]

Wonderful to see exactly how tolerant and accepting of other cultures you are Thunder.

Yes, I am completely intolerant and unaccepting of racial, ethnic, and religious discrimination.

So sorry if this "offends" you.


now, back to my earlier question: do you support the right of Israelis (or any nationality for that matter), to discriminate in housing based on race, religion, and ethnicity?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Yes, I am completely intolerant and unaccepting of racial, ethnic, and religious discrimination.

So sorry if this "offends" you.


now, back to my earlier question: do you support the right of Israelis (or any nationality for that matter), to discriminate in housing based on race, religion, and ethnicity?

Depends what you mean by Israelis (or other nationality).

 

[Thunder]

Depends what you mean by Israelis (or other nationality).

Israelis, also known as "citizens of Israel".

hope this helps.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Israelis, also known as "citizens of Israel".

hope this helps.

So you are talking about private citizens?

If so, then actually I have no issues with allowing private citizens to discriminate. For three reasons.

a) I don't believe that the Government should be telling people who they can and can't invite onto or allow to live on private property. We talk about Government encroaching into people's lives, and this is a real example of them doing so, perhaps because they believe it is the right thing to do, but it still removes people's right of choose who to allow onto their property.

b) I want to know who the bigots are. Anti-Discrimination laws drive them underground, exactly like anti-gay laws drove them underground. Now with the anti-gay laws, these laws were highly unfair on them, but the anti-discrimination laws are unfair on us because when people hide that sort of stuff we can't tell what they think until we really get to know them.
Personally I want to know if my perpective landlord or boss is bigoted because that way I can say, "thanks but no thanks," rather than ending up working for, or paying money to them and getting tarred by the same brush through association. I want to know that a certain landlord only allows whites before I actually sign a contract with them so I can go elsewhere. I want to know if the guy I would be working for hates Christians, because if he does, why would I want to work for him? By forcing people to hide this information by law, it is taking away my rights to make informed decisions about who I work for, pay rent to, and shop from, and I'd rather they were out in the open so I knew who they all were.

c) The final reason has to do with a people's culture. There is discrimination allowed in New Zealand for one reason, when it's cultural, particularly that of the Māori culture. Marae's are essentially homes of the Hapū, or sub-tribe, with the Whānau, extended families, of that Hapū often living on them. As such they are the home of the people there, and also a sacred and private place for those people.
It's no more my right to walk onto a Marae uninvited than it is your right to walk into my home without me inviting you in. However other Māori are able to enter Marae as they are part of the wider whanaungatanga (kinship or people in the wider family) as could I if I had been officially invited onto the Marae, because at that point I too would be considered whanaungatanga too, as long as I continued to follow the set protocols.
Further more there is blantent sexual discrimination on many marae with women having to be seated at the back and not being allowed to speak while in the Wharenui or Meeting House when events are taking place. In Māori culture the women's "meeting room" and place of discussion and power base is that of the kāuta, or the cooking houses, where they determine their politics over the preparation of the food.
Now while these may not be my values or culture, what right do I have to tell others that their culture and protocols are wrong and that they should do things my way? None at all. Europeans have been doing exactly that for centuries, telling others that their way is wrong and has to stop. It's time we stopped, and accepted that others have different cultures and views on the way things should be done, and that while we might not agree with them, at least be tolerant of their culture and differences.

However this is only for Private Citizens. If you had asked about Governments, totally different story. Governments should be fair and equal for all citizens of the state they govern regardless of sex, race, religion, sexuality, or eye colour. (Residents and visitors as well, though they might not have all the rights of a citizen.)

 

[Thunder]

So you are talking about private citizens?

If so, then actually I have no issues with allowing private citizens to discriminate. For three reasons.

a) I don't believe that the Government should be telling people who they can and can't invite onto or allow to live on private property. We talk about Government encroaching into people's lives, and this is a real example of them doing so, perhaps because they believe it is the right thing to do, but it still removes people's right of choose who to allow onto their property.

b) I want to know who the bigots are. Anti-Discrimination laws drive them underground, exactly like anti-gay laws drove them underground. Now with the anti-gay laws, these laws were highly unfair on them, but the anti-discrimination laws are unfair on us because when people hide that sort of stuff we can't tell what they think until we really get to know them.

wow, so if a landlord who owns a 20 unit apartment building, or a Co-Op that has 400 units does NOT want to rent or sell to Jews, you are ok with that?

wow.

It's time we stopped, and accepted that others have different cultures and views on the way things should be done, and that while we might not agree with them, at least be tolerant of their culture and differences

the irony of this statement, considering you accept the right of folks to discriminate in housing based on race, religion, ethnicity, blows my mind.

you're basically saying we should be tolerant of the right of the people to be racist, bigoted, and discriminatory.

 

[PhantomWolf]

wow, so if a landlord who owns a 20 unit apartment building, or a Co-Op that has 400 units does NOT want to rent or sell to Jews, you are ok with that?

wow.

Yes, and it's also the right of everyone else to go and picket them and tell the world what a prick they are for doing that.

The thing is that if the landlord hates Jews enough to ban them, then (s)he is going to do it anyway, using underhand and deceitful methods. (S)he is going to treat them poorly compared to other tenents if they get through and generally go as far as legally (or often illegally) possible to make those tentants lives miserable. Why should people have to put up with that when by allowing the bigotry to be out in the open it can be dealt with through other means and allows people to steer clear of being unknowingly involved it. If no-one but KKK members were willing to buy a unit in a Co-Op that had "No Jews" on the letter box, the owners would get the message pretty darn fast that they had to rethink their opinions. Public pressure and a community that shows it's displeasure but boycotting and a correcting hand is far better then outright banning in my opinion.

 

[Thunder]

Yes, and it's also the right of everyone else to go and picket them and tell the world what a prick they are for doing that.

and what happens if a small city or large town, such as say....Johnstown PA, decides that it doesn't want any black people to live there, and all homeowners and apartment building owners and co-op boards band together and agree to not rent or sell to any black people.

you think this should be legal?

 

[PhantomWolf]

The irony of this statement, considering you accept the right of folks to discriminate in housing based on race, religion, ethnicity, blows my mind.

you're basically saying we should be tolerant of the right of the people to be racist, bigoted, and discriminatory.

That's almost what I am saying. By allowing them to be open about it, it can be countered openly. Banning only drives it underground and ends up making groups like the KKK etc flouish.

People here often post about prohibition of alcohol and drugs not working. I believe that prohibition of discrimination does the same.

Now when it comes to cultural things. What right have you got to declare your culture better than anyone else's?

Should I declare that you should scrap your 2nd Amendment and Cultural love of guns because my culture declares that open access to firearms is wrong?

Just because you think your way of doing things is better than everyone else's, a) doesn't make you right, and b) doesn't give you the right to demand that everyone else live your way. As soon as you start demanding that everyone does it your way, you're no better than a tyrant, no matter how justifiable and good you might believe your cause is.

 

[Thunder]

I have to say, PhantomWolf, I am very saddened by your comments.

They seem to be significantly more committed to the right of people to be racist and discriminate, than the right of people to have a roof over their head and be treated with dignity and respect.

 

[PhantomWolf]

and what happens if a small city or large town, such as say....Johnstown PA, decides that it doesn't want any black people to live there, and all homeowners and apartment building owners and co-op boards band together and agree to not rent or sell to any black people.

you think this should be legal?

No I don't, unless they were forcably evicting any one that lived there already to do so, or preventing people from entering the city, staying at hotels, shopping there, using the public facilities, or the town make it a city law that no one was allowed to sell to anyone of of colour.

Do you think that people should be forced to sell or rent a property to someone they don't want to sell or rent to?

 

[Thunder]

That's almost what I am saying. By allowing them to be open about it, it can be countered openly. Banning only drives it underground and ends up making groups like the KKK etc flouish..

and yet, the KKK was MOST active during Segregation, and has falled apart since then, and continues to die as folks become more tolerant and anti-discrimination laws continue to be enforced.

People here often post about prohibition of alcohol and drugs not working. I believe that prohibition of discrimination does the same.

and yet, ant-discrimination laws in NY and other cities have allowed African-Americans, Jews, and other miniorities to branch out, spread out, open businesses, and live their dreams.

Now when it comes to cultural things. What right have you got to declare your culture better than anyone else's?.

Racism, bigotry, hatred, and prejudice is not a culture. I know of no culture that has racism and bigotry as one of its core traditions...

As soon as you start demanding that everyone does it your way, you're no better than a tyrant, no matter how justifiable and good you might believe your cause is.

do you honestly consider demanding civil and human rights for all peoples and demanding that the right of all peoples be respected, to be tyranny?

wow. double-wow. brain confused.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I have to say, PhantomWolf, I am very saddened by your comments.

They seem to be significantly more committed to the right of people to be racist and discriminate, than the right of people to have a roof over their head and be treated with dignity and respect.

What saddens me is that you either believe, or worse, that American Society is so poorly structured, that without anti-discrimination laws you think that the USA would head straight back into the 1960's. Is the US really so bigoted that the only thing stopping minorities from being unemployed, homeless, and treated disrespectfully that it's illegal to do so?

 

[Thunder]

Is the US really so bigoted that the only thing stopping minorities from being unemployed, homeless, and treated disrespectfully that it's illegal to do so?

you really don't know the USA too well, do you?

The South still has lots of segregated high school proms, golf courses, etc etc.

And yes, if it wasn't for anti-discrimination laws in the USA, many parts of the USA including Northern cities, would become much more segregated all over again.

 

[PhantomWolf]

and yet, the KKK was MOST active during Segregation, and has falled apart since then, and continues to die as folks become more tolerant and anti-discrimination laws continue to be enforced.

People don't become more tolerent because the law forces them too, they become tolerant through education and being shown that their views are wrong and that they need to change.

and yet, ant-discrimination laws in NY and other cities have allowed African-Americans, Jews, and other miniorities to branch out, spread out, open businesses, and live their dreams.

You really believe that the US is so bigotied that the only way this could happen was by anti-discrimination laws?

One of the major reason this has happened is because the Government stopped discriminating. Government discrimination is an issue.

Racism, bigotry, hatred, and prejudice is not a culture. I know of no culture that has racism and bigotry as one of its core traditions...

What about sexual discrimination? Try looking at your own culture on that one.

do you honestly consider demanding civil and human rights for all peoples and demanding that the right of all peoples be respected, to be tyranny?

wow. double-wow. brain confused.

I think this one is going to come down to an America belief that people somehow are inbued with certain rights by being born. Outside of the US you'll find that this isn't so, that people have rights that the community determines that they have rights too, or perhaps more correctly, all members of the community are provided with the rights that the people of the Community want to have. If enough people want a right, and in giving it there is likely few negative effects on the rest of the community, it is given to all members.

Now as a community we have decided that people's culture is important and that they should be allowed to partake it in with minimum interferance, and unlike the US, we don't lock them away on a reservation in the middle of nowhere to allow them the right to practice it. We also don't demand that they stop doing things we find objectionable and force them to follow our culture (at least any more).

 

[PhantomWolf]

you really don't know the USA too well, do you?

The South still has lots of segregated high school proms, golf courses, etc etc.

And yes, if it wasn't for anti-discrimination laws in the USA, many parts of the USA including Northern cities, would become much more segregated all over again.

In that case I feel very, very, sad for you that you live in such a bigoted country. Perhaps instead of trying to fix up the rest of the world you need to start looking in your own backyard and fix that first.

 

[Thunder]

All I can say is, I would NEVER live in a society where it was legal to not hire me, not let me rent an apartment, not let me buy a home, not let me go to school, simply because I am a Jew.

I'd get the **** out of that country in 10 seconds.

I'd move to a much more tolerant country, and tell everyone how bigoted and prejudiced my previous home was, so they would boycott that country and its products...until they changed their ways.

Just like what we did with South Africa.

Yes, that is right. Much of the world was "intolerant" of the racism and discrimination of Apartheid SA. And we were right.

 

[PhantomWolf]

All I can say is, I would NEVER live in a society where it was legal to not hire me

Why would you want to work for someone that hated Jews? Why would you want to put yourself in a position where you are likely to get paid less and face hostility? Surely it is better to know that the employer hated Jews, and go work for his competition to help put him out of business?

not let me rent an apartment

Why would you want to pay a Landlord whio hated you? Why would you subject yourself to the probablity of being treated poorly when you could get a different place that treated you well? Is it not better to know that the landlord is a bigot and help boycott the place so no-one is willing to live there and the landlord has to either sell or change?

not let me buy a home

Why would you want to buy a home from someone that hated you? Why would you want to move into a neighbourhood that likely felt the same? Wouldn't it be better to help prevent the person from selling by making other buyers aware and so forcing them to change?

not let me go to school, simply because I am a Jew.

This is a Governmental issue, and I have already repeatedly stated that Governments (and hence schools) should not discriminate.