OK, so how do thermite demolitions work again?

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If the upper section is destroying the lower then the opposite is happening. Net force is still downward because of gravity, but in the case of the North Tower, the lower section comprises roughly 10x the mass of the upper section. Newton's Third Law precludes such an event.

Are you claiming the upper sections aren't being destroyed?

This question has been dealt with, using mathematics, not just vague guesses. I'm not claiming these things, these are conclusions reached by careful and competent analysis, published in peer-reviewed engineering journals.

The compacted mass of debris which results from the impact of the upper block with the floor immediately below is very dense, and is also accelerating downward (remember gravity) and impacting the next floor.
Within a couple of seconds, this rubble constitutes the main crush-front, leaving the upper block largely out of the impact zone.
 
but in the case of the North Tower, the lower section comprises roughly 10x the mass of the upper section.

irrelevant. the WTC was not a tree.

never mind the fact that the upper section had dynamic mass while the lower section was static. and every section that was crushed ADDED to the dynamic mass of the upper section.

9-11 has taught me sooooo much about physics and engineering. :)
 
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Hmmm... seems as though my truther friend has gotten himself a 30 day vacation. I wonder if he'll spend that time looking for a method that meets the three basic requirements that I laid out above concerning using explosives in the towers.

I'm guessing that either he won't look at all or that, if he does look into it he will find out that indeed there is no way to meet his own theories requirements and ignore the results using some truly amazing mental gymnastics.
 
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If the upper section is destroying the lower then the opposite is happening. Net force is still downward because of gravity, but in the case of the North Tower, the lower section comprises roughly 10x the mass of the upper section. Newton's Third Law precludes such an event.

Are you claiming the upper sections aren't being destroyed?

If nothing else, by trying to claim in previous posts that "destroyed" is equivalent to "laterally ejected", you're doing better than some of the other truthers who seem to expect mass to simply disappear when the upper block is destroyed.

Unfortunately, I don't believe you've shown they are equivalent. In fact, the equal and opposite upward force you're claiming is one of the least effective forces for causing lateral ejection.

And all of that assumes the upper block is actually being destroyed in the first place, which as I recall isn't actually happening as quickly as you might expect due to the rubble layer, as alienentity said above.
 
This question doesn't even make sense.

As I said before, your inability to recognize what was happening is not my fault.


Mass is not necessarily stacking up. Mass in the Twin Towers is being blown laterally with incredible force. If anything, mass is decreasing.

How about some calculations to back that up? How about some facts and figures, such as the tonnage of material from the towers that ebded up not within the footprint versus the amount that did.
Since we both understand Newton's Third,

well at least one of us does.
we know that the upper section is being destroyed in virtually the same way as the lower section of each tower.

Pretty much except for the hat truss and the creation of a debris zone between the two sections, which would allow the upper block to remain relatively intact for a bit longer.
There are other differences as well. The floor pans of the uppersection are being taken off their truss seats upward(wrt to the seats themselves)while the lower floors were being pushed downward and had to bend those seats over. Not sure how much effect that might have had.

There is also the effect of thousands of square feet of drywall being violently crushed creating a huge amount of lightweight dust that is very easily blown outwrad giving a greater appearance of ejected mass than is actually ocuring, at least for the first several floors.

Mass is essentially being blown outward; it isn't stacking up like pancakes.

Its exiting out the sides in much the same way that apile of gravel forms an inverted cone that widens as more get piled on. Except that in this case there is the constraint of the floor area and if something falls past it then its off into free air.
So there is AT LEAST a minimum mass of falling debris that is always within the walls AND its velocity is increasing AND thus the momentum of that mass is increasing. Furthermore it never comes to rest and would not have to pile up into that inverted cone shape.
It's being broken up and dispersed and its force decreasing as collapse progresses. The 10 stories of the North Tower's upper section could never have completely eliminated the 100 stories below it.

Is this the 'a pile of debris cannot exert the force of a solid object' strawman so favoured by 9/11 conspiracists?

The reason a loose collection of debris has not the dynamic force of a solid object is that it impacts another object over a longer period. This is why a front end loader operator will slowly empty the bucket into a truck rather than dump the whole thing as quickly as he could.(the truck driver/owner might punch his lights out). However its mass , of course, remains the same. Furthermore, in this case, by the time the material causing the collapse is primarily loose debris(mind you much of it being multi-ton steel column sections) the velocity of this debris was much greater so you now minimize the effect of a more drawn out time of impact on each floor pan. Greater velocity means shorter time to get the same impact force from a loose debris impact.

AND,,,,,, again,,,,,, the vast majority of this mass and impact force(dynamic load) is hitting the floor pans, NOT the axis of the columns. THEREFORE the floors fail. There may be some force due to pressurized air as well but I do not subscribe to that as having a significant effect.

No floors=no lateral support=column failure

See you actually have to look at the hard evidence, not just take a simple equation and run with it.

I have looked at the 'evidence' and have seen nothing to dissuade me from the senario I put forth. I have also not seen you employ any science whatsoever, instead choosing personal incredulity as your guide.
You bandy about terms like 'decelleration', 'resistance' and speak of Newtons third law of motion but have demonstrated time and again your lack of understanding of these and other things.

Lastly, my question still stands, and your attempt to deflect is noted, but let's break it down.

1) When the initial collapse occurs, what is happening to the columns at that level? In answering this question I do not care whether you are invoking explosives being used to sever the columns or if they bend and buckle due to heat and increased load due to other failed columns.
If in the pristine structure a column was a straight line through these floors what does that line look like at initial failure?

2) Given that the load on any floor was transfered to the columns via the truss seats, would you expect all floors to be essentially the same (aside from the handful of floors that used heavy beams rather than lightweight trusses)?

3) Do you know the principal of long slender column buckling and the need for lateral bracing? Are you aware that the floor trusses provided this lateral bracing between the core column system and the perimeter columns system?
What is the result of the removal of lateral bracing?
 
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This question has been dealt with, using mathematics, not just vague guesses. I'm not claiming these things, these are conclusions reached by careful and competent analysis, published in peer-reviewed engineering journals.

The compacted mass of debris which results from the impact of the upper block with the floor immediately below is very dense, and is also accelerating downward (remember gravity) and impacting the next floor.
Within a couple of seconds, this rubble constitutes the main crush-front, leaving the upper block largely out of the impact zone.

This would mean that the primary mode of the destruction of the upper block floor pans would be
a) they're being lifted off their truss seats by the debris zone and impacting the ceiling(next floor above)
b) lower section column sections spearing through the debris zone
 
As I said before, your inability to recognize what was happening is not my fault.

How about some calculations to back that up? How about some facts and figures, such as the tonnage of material from the towers that ebded up not within the footprint versus the amount that did.

The videos are our only evidence at this point. The videos indicate tremendous energy and tremendous lateral debris ejections. The mass of the upper section is most definitely not increasing or gathering. If the lower sections are producing lateral ejections then the upper section must also be ridding its mass laterally, so this is very far from being a collapsing mass that is growing. Not to mention that the steel and concrete core grew tapered larger as it progressed down the structure, providing more resistance approaching ground level.

Pretty much except for the hat truss which would allow the upper bolck to remain relatively intact for a bit longer.
There are other differences as well. The floor pans of the uppersection are being taken off their truss seats upward(wrt to the seats themselves)while the lower floors were being pushed downward and had to bend those seats over. Not sure how much effect that might have had.

10 stories with a hat truss versus 100 stories and an enlarging core structure. Where would you put your money if you were a betting man?

Its exiting out the sides in much the same way that apile of gravel forms an inverted cone that widens as more get piled on. Except that in this case there is the constraint of the floor area and if something falls past it then its off into free air.

Nonsense. Gravel falls down when it is piled on. These ejections are symmetric around all sides of both buildings and are absolutely horizontal. There is no measurable downward angle. So no, they are nothing alike.

So there is AT LEAST a minimum mass of falling debris that is always within the walls AND its velocity is increasing AND thus the momentum of that mass is increasing.

A conclusion based on nothing introduced as evidence in this discussion. And what does "at least a minimum mass" mean? It sounds redundant.

Is this the 'a pile of debris cannot exert the force of a solid object' strawman so favoured by 9/11 conspiracists?

The reason a loose collection of debris has not the dynamic force of a solid object is that it impacts another object over a longer period. This is why a front end loader operator will slowly empty the bucket into a truck rather than dump the whole thing as quickly as he could.(the truck driver/owner might punch his lights out). However its mass , of course, remains the same. Furthermore, in this case, by the time the material causing the collapse is primarily loose debris the velocity of this debris was much greater so you now minimize the effect of a more drawn out time of impact on each floor pan. Greater velocity means shorter time to get the same impact force from a loose debris impact.

First, I don't know why you call it a straw man. A straw man is a misrepresentation of an argument. That loose debris exerts less impact force than solid mass is a fact. These aren't metal washers being stacked up on pole; this is literally exploding mass being blown in all radial directions, so let's not pretend it's something it isn't. Not only is mass being blown outward with massive force, the falling mass is being destroyed and losing its prior ability to exert force downward.

AND,,,,,, again,,,,,, the vast majority of this mass and impact force(dynamic load) is hitting the floor pans, NOT the axis of the columns. THEREFORE the floors fail. There may be some force due to pressurized air as well but I do not subscribe to that as having a significant effect.

No floors=no lateral support=column failure

Absolute unfounded hogwash. You have no clue what the vast majority of this mass is hitting. The failure occurs at the core and that is where the overwhelming predominance of resistance is overcome as it collapses. The core is constant and tapered structure. And your little equation is ridiculous: the column does not just instantly fail without floor pans.

And why exactly do we see so much pulverized concrete? What force is creating this, the failure of lateral supports? Enjoy trying to support that argument.

I have looked at the 'evidence' and have seen nothing to dissuade me from the senario I put forth. I have also not seen you employ any science whatsoever, instead choosing personal incredulity as your guide.
You bandy about terms like 'decelleration', 'resistance' and speak of Newtons third law of motion but have demonstrated time and again your lack of understanding of these and other things.

If you knew how such terms were spelled, you might more accurately demonstrate your understanding of such terms (or perhaps you're doing just that).

Anyway, your above paragraph is pure ad hominem. I can't be bothered to respond to much more of it.

Lastly, my question still stands, and your attempt to deflect is noted, but let's break it down.

1) When the initial collapse occurs, what is happening to the columns at that level? In answering this question I do not care whether you are invoking explosives being used to sever the columns or if they bend and buckle due to heat and increased load due to other failed columns.
If in the pristine structure a column was a straight line through these floors what does that line look like at initial failure?

You answered your own question: core columns are being severed. I do not think there is any significant degree of buckling taking place because I do not believe that the upper section is applying any significant degree of force on the core structure below it.

2) Given that the load on any floor was transfered to the columns via the truss seats, would you expect all floors to be essentially the same (aside from the handful of floors that used heavy beams rather than lightweight trusses)?

Same in terms of what?

3) Do you know the principal of long slender column buckling and the need for lateral bracing? Are you aware that the floor trusses provided this lateral bracing between the core column system and the perimeter columns system?
What is the result of the removal of lateral bracing?

Are you implying that the absence of lateral support on a given level would have caused instant failure (and apparently pulverization)? I hope not.
 
The videos indicate tremendous energy and tremendous lateral debris ejections. The mass of the upper section is most definitely not increasing or gathering.

Photos such as this

WTC1feefall.jpg


demonstrate that the collapse was progressing at noticeably less than g acceleration. The pieces of building you see circled are being slowed by air-resistance only, which we'll call 'free-fall' for now.

If what you say about debris not accumulating during collapse is true then we should see a veritable rain of steel members - representing all the steel for each new floor being destroyed - pouring down ahead of the collapse zone, as they would be in free-fall just like those pieces in the still above. We don't see this. You're wrong.
 
They're meant to avoid such ejections for what reason? And how would that reason apply to this situation? And have buildings of these design ever been destroyed in such a manner?

So why on Earth would the objectives of professional CDs apply here?

Uh...because in CDs you don't have to launch material laterally with really intense explosives. Why would you use explosives that are beyond what is necessary to knock out the columns?

Richard Gage tells us that the conspirators decided to use really intense explosives such as to hurl beams laterally at 65mph. But before he explains all this, he sort of hints at a very obvious problem with his laughably preposterous hypothesis:

"If you wanted the building to come down, and blame it on fire, which is not explosive in nature, you would use a different type of charge, an incendiary to cut the beams. You would NOT use explosives which would give away your project."-Richard Gage

Ok Richard, so we just need to cut these beams with thermite, and the noise control problem is solved. Oh but wait, we have more from Gage!

"The explosives had to be so intense such as to hurl these beams at 65 mph laterally, landing five hundred feet away."
-Richard Gage

Oh, so now they are using explosives; and we're not talking about just any explosives, these are REALLY INTENSE explosives (which means REALLY INTENSE explosions that would give a way your project :rolleyes:) that don't only knock out the beams (the beams which are already cut by the thermite, and that could be blasted with less intense eplosives like those used in other CD's where the columns are NOT ejected laterally) but actually EJECT them laterally at 65 mph landing 500 feet away!
 
If what you say about debris not accumulating during collapse is true then we should see a veritable rain of steel members - representing all the steel for each new floor being destroyed - pouring down ahead of the collapse zone, as they would be in free-fall just like those pieces in the still above. We don't see this. You're wrong.

Exactly :)

I think I can predict what Tempesta is going to say next, and I can't wait!
 
Exactly :)

I think I can predict what Tempesta is going to say next, and I can't wait!

But other genius, I-know-I'm-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong truthers insist that there was hardly any steel in the debris piles after the collapses; that the steel was dustified and floated away.

It's all so confusing - therm*te, nanothermite, high explosives, dustification, hologram planes and cruise missiles.

And all the truthers are right. We know this because they say so.:boggled:
 
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If the upper section is destroying the lower then the opposite is happening. Net force is still downward because of gravity, but in the case of the North Tower, the lower section comprises roughly 10x the mass of the upper section. Newton's Third Law precludes such an event.

At last. Newton's Third Law. Sooner or later, all WTC deniers end up with this fallacy. At least you're honest enough to fantasise that debris is being lost from the collapse immediately as it's created, which is what is actually required for this to be valid. Unfortunately, that is just fantasy, because you have no data for the rate of ejection of debris and no justification for any assumptions about it.

But, hey, you don't bother with actually working out numbers, do you? You just decide which one you want to be bigger, then pretend it is. I call it the unevaluated inequality fallacy, and you've mastered it very quickly. Congratulations.

Dave
 
Exactly :)

I think I can predict what Tempesta is going to say next ....

Damned if I can.

I've lost track of whether he believes in thermite that melted the steel or explosives that blew the buildings to crap.
 
Hushaboom is both an incendiary AND an explosive. It was invented by Boris and Natasha who went to work for the NWO back in the 60's. Why do you think that they stopped making all of those teevee shows about them?
 
Damned if I can.

I've lost track of whether he believes in thermite that melted the steel or explosives that blew the buildings to crap.

We don't know what he believes,our latest truther refuses to present a complete theory,only opinions based on sheer ignorance. Par for the course.
 
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If the upper section is destroying the lower then the opposite is happening. Net force is still downward because of gravity, but in the case of the North Tower, the lower section comprises roughly 10x the mass of the upper section. Newton's Third Law precludes such an event.

Are you claiming the upper sections aren't being destroyed?

The falling upper 12 stories did not crush the 98 stories below it. The falling upper 12 stories crushed the 1 story below it.
 
The falling upper 12 stories did not crush the 98 stories below it. The falling upper 12 stories crushed the 1 story below it.

This is always the way I have looked at it. A lot of truthers complain that the mass above should be stopped by the mass below, but the mass below was only one floor at a time; it could never have supported the mass above.
 
A six year old child could understand that,why can't truthers?

Because the word "progressive":

# gradually advancing in extent
# a tense of verbs used in describing action that is on-going


does not exist in their vocabulary. They only want "simultaneous" because the other word is inconvenient for them.
 
If what you say about debris not accumulating during collapse is true then we should see a veritable rain of steel members - representing all the steel for each new floor being destroyed - pouring down ahead of the collapse zone, as they would be in free-fall just like those pieces in the still above. We don't see this. You're wrong.

Straw man. I never suggested debris didn't accumulate at all, but there is nothing to suggest that this mass is some growing entity. It isn't. Not only is mass going in all directions out of the path of collapse, but this upper section itself is being destroyed and losing some of its ability to exert force downward. We can't quantify how much mass is being added to this collapse, but we know three things: a lot of mass is being lost by these ejections, the upper section is losing ability to exert downward force as its destroyed, the upper section loses momentum every time it creates this new falling mass. And the bonus to it all is: the core structure gets larger and stronger as the collapse progresses.

I.e, there is nothing to suggest this collapsing mass is growing more powerful as it falls.
 

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