Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

[PhantomWolf]

And previous to all this I thought that Labour's DON - KEY ad from a few elections back was resorting to gutter politics. I can't even find any New Zealand politicians talking about their opponents the way American ones do.

What is really amazing is that US politicians are actually closer on the political scale than ours are and ours are politer to each other.

 

[JihadJane]

You political hacks tend to think everyone is as politically fixated as you are. Even schizophrenics. Such is not the case.

I will be very surprised if the loon has anything resembling a real political doctrine. These loon assassins target politicians because of their celebrity. Politics, if it plays any role at all, is typically just an excuse and a convenient path to fame.

One of the few good things that can be said about real political hacks is that they hardly ever resort to murder over their political fixations. Out of tens of millions of political hacks, only a few have actually snapped and gone ballistic.

So here's my speculation: This perp went ballistic because he is crazy. Politics and political rhetoric had nothing to do with it - except to the extent that politics resembles it.

Politicians outsource and export their violence. That's one of the perks of the job.

 

[Democracy Simulator]

Maybe the discussion of specific politics is speculative but he has made it a political act in both deed (the political official) and word:

"... a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon."

This does beg the question: "What was his political object?" And so by its nature it is politicized.

If he is erad3 as it appears he is, was this his political object he refers to in this post of the above mentioned thread:

"Is it possible that politicians are taking advantage of the money system?

It's possible to overthrow a government and change the currency."

But, even if this pile of speculation were true, I would ask you: So what?

I mean, what lurks behind this desire to peg him as this, that or the other? Are we moving in the direction of:

Loughner was a tea-bagger/pot-smoking liberal/ayn rand fan/dug george orwell/ had a wacky fascination with currency/read karl marx/read adolf hitler, therefore:

Anyone who is: tea-bagger/pot-smoking liberal/ayn rand fan/ dug george orwell/ had a wacky fascination with currency/ read karl marx/read adolf hitler

is likely to go crazy and start killing people.

And therefore all the above are bad influences?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Evidence that you're either a troll, out of touch with reality, really reaching to defend Sarah Palin, or all three.

But why not defend Palin, or Kos, or the Democratic Party, or anyone who uses the "target" metaphor, against people who claim that that stock image is incitement to murder? It's not.
People like Kos, who used the target image himself, are in no position to criticize the use of the target image by others, however. People who construct political arguments out of vulgar slurs (see the Michelle Bachman thread) are in no position to lecture others on civility.
Turn it down.

 

[truethat]

But, even if this pile of speculation were true, I would ask you: So what?

I mean, what lurks behind this desire to peg him as this, that or the other? Are we moving in the direction of:

Loughner was a tea-bagger/pot-smoking liberal/ayn rand fan/dug george orwell/ had a wacky fascination with currency/read karl marx/read adolf hitler, therefore:

Anyone who is: tea-bagger/pot-smoking liberal/ayn rand fan/ dug george orwell/ had a wacky fascination with currency/ read karl marx/read adolf hitler

is likely to go crazy and start killing people.

And therefore all the above are bad influences?

You wanna give that horse one last kick before you are through with it? It's only been dead for 13 hours now?

Yeah, get your point. I think you are over simplifying it here. Any out burst or assumption of what the man's affiliations were, are not a reflection of a need to have him be the "other." Rather they are a reflection on the state of US at this time and how people practically anticipate people starting to assassinate political figures. Why? Because that's the direction we've been headed for a while now. The knee jerk judgment is not so much evidence of a an irrational prejudice but a rational fear.

It's sad

 

[case#46cw39]

But, even if this pile of speculation were true, I would ask you: So what?

I mean, what lurks behind this desire to peg him as this, that or the other? Are we moving in the direction of:

Anyone who is: ...
is likely to go crazy and start killing people.

And therefore all the above are bad influences?

There is no desire, just reporting the facts. If he ranted about aliens from the planet X who make the crop circles and have invaded, I would have reported that. Thus no desire. And it doesn't prove any such thing. It only shows what was in his head at the time. Same things the FBI are wondering too I'm sure.

 

[case#46cw39]

Yes, one of his issues was currency, but what exactly was he saying, and which CT that you hate do you think he ascribed to? Which CT, anti currency rhetoric have you read that talks about constantly creating a new currency? His writings are frankly bizarre.

Another issue was dates, but you haven't posted that video or quotes from it... why not?

Because you have an agenda.

Right. One of his issues was currency. That was my point. This was in his head. There is no agenda, just reporting the facts. If he ranted about aliens from the planet X who make the crop circles and have invaded, I would have reported that. Thus no agenda. And it doesn't imply that his currency fixation wasn't bizarre. It only shows what was in his head at the time. Same things the FBI are wondering too I'm sure. As I hear more facts I will add them, objectively hopefully.

 

[UWdude]

You wanna give that horse one last kick before you are through with it? It's only been dead for 13 hours now?

Yeah, get your point. I think you are over simplifying it here. Any out burst or assumption of what the man's affiliations were, are not a reflection of a need to have him be the "other." Rather they are a reflection on the state of US at this time and how people practically anticipate people starting to assassinate political figures. Why? Because that's the direction we've been headed for a while now. The knee jerk judgment is not so much evidence of a an irrational prejudice but a rational fear.

It's sad

Yes, there were no crazy assassins before the internetz and today's volatile political climate.

so sad.

< one more to make my sadness look extra genuine.

 

[case#46cw39]

Right. One of his issues was currency. That was my point. This was in his head. There is no agenda, just reporting the facts. If he ranted about aliens from the planet X who make the crop circles and have invaded, I would have reported that. Thus no agenda. And it doesn't imply that his currency fixation wasn't bizarre. It only shows what was in his head at the time. Same things the FBI are wondering too I'm sure. As I hear more facts I will add them, objectively hopefully.

case reopened.

 

[Democracy Simulator]

You wanna give that horse one last kick before you are through with it? It's only been dead for 13 hours now?

Yeah, get your point. I think you are over simplifying it here. Any out burst or assumption of what the man's affiliations were, are not a reflection of a need to have him be the "other." Rather they are a reflection on the state of US at this time and how people practically anticipate people starting to assassinate political figures. Why? Because that's the direction we've been headed for a while now. The knee jerk judgment is not so much evidence of a an irrational prejudice but a rational fear.

It's sad

No, they are a reflection of a need to have him 'be the other', as you put it. It is completely an irrational prejudice. If it is not, please provide clear argument and evidence to the contrary.

How does one 'practically anticipate people starting to assassinate political figures' in this context? Do we comb the vaults of youtube for Anyone who likes Ayn Rand and spouts about currency?

 

[Democracy Simulator]

There is no desire, just reporting the facts.

I was not referring to you in particular. In general, do you think that no-one has attempted to make cheap political capital out of this tragedy? Is the association with tea-baggers/karl marx/adolf hitler/liberals/conspircay theorists all merely agenda-free fact reporting?

 

[case#46cw39]

He ranted about calender dates, and grammar, and you didn't report that.

Case#46cw39 closed.

I didn't know that, so how could I? But thanks for the update.

Ok now this just in from the LA Times one hour ago. I just found out. Does this mean I have an agenda against Pima College? Of course not. It is what it is.

Shooting suspect's campus troubles led to suspension
LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...brielle-giffords-web-20110109,0,5602549.story

"Jared Lee Loughner attended Pima Community College between 2005 and 2010. From February to September of last year, he was involved in five "classroom and library disruptions" that were handled by campus police, the school's officials said late Saturday. He was suspended in late September after the college police found a video on YouTube in which Loughner claimed the college is "illegal" under the U.S. Constitution, officials said. ... At one point, he castigates police for removing students from educational facilities for talking. Removing you from the educational facility for talking is unconstitutional in the United States," the text says.

He apparently believed in free higher education. And he considered what happened here egregious and unconstitutional. More motivation in his mind? Do I have an agenda here?

see this video here entitled:
This Student at Pima Community College- An Unconstitutional Crime!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GN_qijsh7A

This video, reviewed by campus police along with 5 disruptive incidents in which campus police were called in, got him suspended.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have no fascination with Ayn Rand. The perpetrator lists one of her books as one of his favorites. Perhaps he was fascinated with her

That would explain a lot.

 

[UWdude]

I didn't know that, so how could I? But thanks for the update.

You could haev watched the other video in the channel link you provided.

"Jared Lee Loughner attended Pima Community College between 2005 and 2010. From February to September of last year, he was involved in five "classroom and library disruptions" that were handled by campus police, the school's officials said late Saturday. He was suspended in late September after the college police found a video on YouTube in which Loughner claimed the college is "illegal" under the U.S. Constitution, officials said. ... At one point, he castigates police for removing students from educational facilities for talking. Removing you from the educational facility for talking is unconstitutional in the United States," the text says. "This situation is fraud because the police are unconstitutional!"

He apparently believed in free higher education. And he considered what happened here egregious and unconstitutional. More motivation in his mind? Do I have an agenda here?

Yeah, he said all that in the link you provided a few posts up.

 

[Merko]

I wonder if the people who think there is "zero evidence" that the Palin, Beck et al rhetoric had anything to do with this would also be happy to have some raving islamist preacher calling for jihad against the US, as long as there is no 100% established link between that preacher and the latest suicide bomber?

People, this guy is crazy, no doubt about it. But it is clearly not true that he was only hearing voices in his head. He did not himself invent the theories about how the current government is 'unconstitutional'. He got that from somewhere.

 

[UWdude]

People, this guy is crazy, no doubt about it. But it is clearly not true that he was only hearing voices in his head. He did not himself invent the theories about how the current government is 'unconstitutional'. He got that from somewhere.

Actually, his theories seem to be pretty much his own inventions, and poorly thought out at that.

 

[MaGZ]

Fox News just reported the shooter is an atheist.

Just great.

After going through this thread and reading all the speculation on the possible motives of the shooter, I find this revelation hilarious. I guess JREF is now the “go to” forum on this incident.

 

[MaGZ]

And that'll give the right a counter-point if he does turn out to be a huge tea-bagger.

"How could he possibly be a conservative? He was an atheist! No true conservative is an atheist!"

Then again, it doesn't really matter. I'm already dead inside from all of the political bickering in this thread and elsewhere.

Revilo P. Oliver was a founding member of the John Birch Society and was an atheist.

 

[Merko]

Actually, his theories seem to be pretty much his own inventions, and poorly thought out at that.

No they do not. His theories are rambling, for sure, but they are not about random things. He is discussing things that are heavily bandied about on Glenn Beck et al. Specifically, I'm talking about these ideas:
- the current government is unconstitutional
- we (he) should not be bound by debt caused by the government
- currency should be based on gold and silver
- the government is brainwashing us
- the government is taking away our freedom of speech

Since some people seem to be getting this wrong, no I am certainly not saying that this guy read some Glenn Beck book and then faithfully carried out Beck's instructions. This guy is crazy and his ideas are even more incoherent than when Beck represents them. But again, the ideas are not random. He's not rambling about dinosaurs, then his own excrement, then the moons of Jupiter, then spiders, then his new computer, then what he had for lunch, then his mother, and so on.

His videos are political. Yes, they are crazy-political, incoherent, twisted, mentally disturbed. But there can be no doubt that he got his ideas from somewhere. It might be Beck or some conspiracy forum on the internet, but they did not just pop into his head from nowhere.

 

[MaGZ]

Without clarification from him I actually agree. He noted the US flag as an unknown flag. The actual physical red white and blue flag as "unknown" because it was not in the Constitution. His lacking trust in God and imperviousness to be forced to believe might be a "God of the money" sort of deal. "Your God is Capitalism." However, being an atheist and being looney atheist rhetoric is still a strong possibility.

Curiously, if he does turn out to be an atheist would this be the first attempted political assassination by a confirmed atheist in the US?

I wouldn’t call Lee Harvey Oswald a bible-thumper just because he came from Texas.