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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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1. It was reported that Meredith made a drink at Patrick's bar which he liked, and that the then offered her a job.


That's from the same article. We need independent, corroborating evidence.

2. Meredith did not come from a family of means; her parents were divorced, her father a freelance journalist, her mother ill. It is quite likely that she could have used extra income.


That's sheer speculation.

3. I doubt the police knew of Patrick's passing acquaintance with Meredith; he had never socialized with her outside the bar; he lived a quiet life with his partner and their young child.


The fact that Patrick employed Amanda and the speculation that he was planning to employ Meredith should have made him a strong candidate for scrutiny by the cops.

The "language put in Patrick's and Aleksandra's mouths" emanated from their very own minds.


Well, that's what we're trying to figure out, loverofzion. Just saying it doesn't make it true.
 
I agree. SA used to place huge weight on the computer evidence showing the creation of the audio playlist at around 5.30am, But now when it appears that there might be computer evidence showing activity throughout the night up to and including this 5.30am interaction, a spot of ex-post rationalisation is suddenly in order........

By the way, Happy New Year! Best wishes from sunny Texas (oooooops, I mean drizzly London ;) )


There's nothing contradictory. There isn't any evidence of activity of applications throughout the night, that's the whole problem. It was quoted that there is some sort of actvity from 9pm to 6am. But Amanda says she and Raffaele were in a "different" room, eating dinner at 9.30, 10pm. Where are the applications that were used between 9pm and 6am???? How did Raffy do it with his go-go gadgets arms if he was eating fish with Amanda, cooking, looking at split pipes. There's no internet activity, no programs. What exactly is he supposed to have been doing? Amanda considers that they made love and then reasserts that they definitely did. Then she says they fell asleep together. BTW I do find this line that whenever Amanda makes even categoric statements like no she didn't apologise to Patrick and yes they were in another room for a sustained period of time, yes they did make love and yes they went to sleep together, that if it doesn't help the latest and greatest piece of evidence then she must just have forgotten. That is not skeptical and it is deeply unsatisfying in front of juries.

But it's not a latest and greatest piece of evidence anyway.This is looking extremely suspiciously like it's screensaver type activity with no applications running otherwise those application event logs would be a MASSIVE piece of evidence in the case. Enough to reopen the case on the part of the police and prosecution long before the appeal as a clear indication of something corroborating at least one defendant's version. I think you're heading for a fall on this one as there's no activity on the PC at all until the 5.30 events. You expect a jury to believe the computer was "in use" but doing nothing whereas we have clear objective records of the computer being in use at other times?

As it is, I believe this is quite likely to be a big mistake in the defence case for the appeal. I would like to be facing the prosecution rebuttal of this. Nasty.


@Halides 1 Re the spontaneous declaration and stating it was an apology to the Kerchers, Amanda said that had been "wrong" to think that there was a right time or a wrong time to express sympathy to the Kerchers and she then corrected that. She then apologised to Patrick, which clearly she didn't need to do if she'd done it before. The question originally put to me was whether she had apologised TO Patrick. In cross-examination she said clearly and plainly "no" she had not and in the recent appeal hearing, it is quite clear that by her actions she similarly was correcting her other oversight.

At least now she is unequivocal that she was "wrong"- Edda will have to remember that since she's being out there saying it definitely wasn't the right time to reach out on TV, very firmly, only a handful of days before.

By the way, did you watch Clander's film at PMF where Amanda's Italian words are played with a simultaneous english translation? The modulation of her voice in the section on expressing her regret to the Kerchers is all wrong in my opinion. The pitching up at Meredith's death when she managed to do nothing like it in the first trial? It sounded deeply put on. It really should be watched / listened to. Others are of the same opinion. I consider this a big big gamble to have taken because if it didn't come across convincing to the jury, you have a major problem from the off. A real double or quits strategy that.

Also the flipside of Amanda's rambling opening about her being the least able to express herself is, of course, that it equally looks like an attempt to convince the court that yes she can be that flakey and that's why all the problems in what she said. Looks like alibi support in motion. It's not terribly convincing because of course she was reading from written notes when she did it - loads and loads of time to prepare. And what is clear is that after the rambling open, there wasn't anything unclear in what she said to the Kerchers or to Patrick at all - it was all perfectly clear. So the performance is internally inconsistent as well. Go and listen to it and watch the translation - it's not looking good from here.

Pure confirmation bias no doubt; "*********** bastards" as Amanda would say. Funny that - when she was in Questura, why did she assume that more than one person killed Meredith - bastards plural? It's really rather rare to find a single woman murdered in her home and find out that more than one person did it. The automatic assumption would be a solo male killer. Would you say it? A strange thing to say indeed. It reminds me very much of her saying she had never invited Rudy to her house "before" in her bugged conversation with her dad. Nasty things those little slips.

She does give you lots of clues you know, but none of you can see it. I have to say, I do sit and wonder sometimes what your faces will be like if Rudy sings.



@ LondonJohn - I'm not much bothered but tomorrow, why not simply go outside to a well known road in West London and take a picture with the Sunday paper date clearly shown in it in the frame and the street sign and post it up there and then. Camera, mobile phone. I'm sure you have one. End of lengthy debate. There's no charge for the advice. You can do that, can't you?
 
We don't really know how the other people behaved. The spotlight would not be on them in the days following the arrests, when most of the hearsay about Amanda's behavior was collected.
I recall 2 students from England along with Meredith's BF found Raffaele and Amanda's behaviour inappropriate, cannot recall whether it was Sophie, Robin who stated that she found Amanda behaviour cold or detached given her housemate had been brutally murdered. In the context of the events of the day it is reasonable to conclude that individuals of a similiar age, knowing each other for a similiar length of time would respond in similiar ways, everyone that was in the police waiting room was upset except Amanda and Raffaele. It is possible that Raffaele and Amanda dealt with Meredith's murder differently but the difference was at odds with everyone else who knew Meredith.
 
My impression is that the Daily Mail article was created specifically to feed off of the prosecutor's theory of competition and jealousy between Amanda and Meredith. After all, that was Amanda's motive, according to Mignini. The view is reinforced many times in the article, e.g.:








If you want to give that article any credibility, then answer three questions:

1. Is there any other evidence that Patrick had ever met Meredith?

2. Did any of Meredith's friends or family ever mention that she wanted or needed a job at Le Chic?

3. If Patrick was planning to hire Meredith to work for him, then why did the police not interview Patrick before his arrest, given that they interviewed dozens of other of Meredith's passing acquaintances?

The language put in Patrick and Aleksandra's mouths to describe Amanda for that article is totally preposterous. It is typical tabloid fiction.



Umm it's well covered in Angel Face. Meredith made a special cocktail for Patrick. Can't remember what it was but it was substituting one spirit for another in a more conventional drink and stuff like that.
 
Umm it's well covered in Angel Face. Meredith made a special cocktail for Patrick. Can't remember what it was but it was substituting one spirit for another in a more conventional drink and stuff like that.


Did Barbie say where she got her information about that?
 
Did Barbie say where she got her information about that?


Can't remember. Amanda testimony:


CP: You, in your work, Miss, what did you do?

AK: I had to give out tickets during the day, and then when I...in the evening,
I arrived at ten, and I would give drinks to the people that worked there...
er, the people that came there.

- - -

AK: Around the middle of October is when I started.

CP: What days of the week did you work? Every day or some days?

AK: In the beginning, I worked every day, and then we organized to work
twice a week.

CP: Which days? Do you remember?

AK: Tuesday and Thursday.



So appears she got put on more restricted duties which is consistent with Patrick's interview and Angel Face.
 
Can't remember. Amanda testimony:


CP: You, in your work, Miss, what did you do?

AK: I had to give out tickets during the day, and then when I...in the evening,
I arrived at ten, and I would give drinks to the people that worked there...
er, the people that came there.

- - -

AK: Around the middle of October is when I started.

CP: What days of the week did you work? Every day or some days?

AK: In the beginning, I worked every day, and then we organized to work
twice a week.

CP: Which days? Do you remember?

AK: Tuesday and Thursday.



So appears she got put on more restricted duties which is consistent with Patrick's interview and Angel Face.

Less days doesn't mean "restricted duties".
 
Can't remember. Amanda testimony:


CP: You, in your work, Miss, what did you do?

AK: I had to give out tickets during the day, and then when I...in the evening,
I arrived at ten, and I would give drinks to the people that worked there...
er, the people that came there.

- - -

AK: Around the middle of October is when I started.

CP: What days of the week did you work? Every day or some days?

AK: In the beginning, I worked every day, and then we organized to work
twice a week.

CP: Which days? Do you remember?

AK: Tuesday and Thursday.



So appears she got put on more restricted duties which is consistent with Patrick's interview and Angel Face.


What about Meredith?
 
I recall 2 students from England along with Meredith's BF found Raffaele and Amanda's behaviour inappropriate, cannot recall whether it was Sophie, Robin who stated that she found Amanda behaviour cold or detached given her housemate had been brutally murdered. In the context of the events of the day it is reasonable to conclude that individuals of a similiar age, knowing each other for a similiar length of time would respond in similiar ways, everyone that was in the police waiting room was upset except Amanda and Raffaele. It is possible that Raffaele and Amanda dealt with Meredith's murder differently but the difference was at odds with everyone else who knew Meredith.

I have often wondered if they got cold and detached confused with tired and aggravated. How many hours had she been answering the same questions?
 
There's nothing contradictory. There isn't any evidence of activity of applications throughout the night, that's the whole problem. It was quoted that there is some sort of actvity from 9pm to 6am. But Amanda says she and Raffaele were in a "different" room, eating dinner at 9.30, 10pm. Where are the applications that were used between 9pm and 6am???? How did Raffy do it with his go-go gadgets arms if he was eating fish with Amanda, cooking, looking at split pipes. There's no internet activity, no programs. What exactly is he supposed to have been doing? Amanda considers that they made love and then reasserts that they definitely did. Then she says they fell asleep together. BTW I do find this line that whenever Amanda makes even categoric statements like no she didn't apologise to Patrick and yes they were in another room for a sustained period of time, yes they did make love and yes they went to sleep together, that if it doesn't help the latest and greatest piece of evidence then she must just have forgotten. That is not skeptical and it is deeply unsatisfying in front of juries.

Hang on, that elephant in the room is still there.

What's your alternative hypothesis for the ones and zeroes on Raffaele's hard drive? Gremlins? Fairies? Cosmic rays?

You still haven't got one. You're still just throwing ridicule at the facts from every angle, hoping to find something that sticks.

Also, it's pretty much a desperation move to resort to "Yeah well, maybe my argument makes no sense but a jury will eat it up!". If they do, well, that just means juries are stupid. It doesn't make Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito actually guilty.

I find it very strange that certain posters will, when backed into a corner, find themselves saying "Yeah well maybe they're innocent, but they will rot in jail anyway because juries are stupid! Ha ha!".

But it's not a latest and greatest piece of evidence anyway.This is looking extremely suspiciously like it's screensaver type activity with no applications running otherwise those application event logs would be a MASSIVE piece of evidence in the case. Enough to reopen the case on the part of the police and prosecution long before the appeal as a clear indication of something corroborating at least one defendant's version. I think you're heading for a fall on this one as there's no activity on the PC at all until the 5.30 events. You expect a jury to believe the computer was "in use" but doing nothing whereas we have clear objective records of the computer being in use at other times?

What "application event logs" can you possibly talking about?

As it is, I believe this is quite likely to be a big mistake in the defence case for the appeal. I would like to be facing the prosecution rebuttal of this. Nasty.

I'm irresistibly reminded of the chatter on the internet from Republican supporters before the last US Presidential election. It seemed like Obama couldn't put a foot wrong, yet every move he made led to a chorus from the Republican partisans of "This is bad for Obama! He's clearly desperate!".

The projection was quite blatant.

Also the flipside of Amanda's rambling opening about her being the least able to express herself is, of course, that it equally looks like an attempt to convince the court that yes she can be that flakey and that's why all the problems in what she said. Looks like alibi support in motion. It's not terribly convincing because of course she was reading from written notes when she did it - loads and loads of time to prepare. And what is clear is that after the rambling open, there wasn't anything unclear in what she said to the Kerchers or to Patrick at all - it was all perfectly clear. So the performance is internally inconsistent as well. Go and listen to it and watch the translation - it's not looking good from here.

Pure confirmation bias no doubt; "*********** bastards" as Amanda would say. Funny that - when she was in Questura, why did she assume that more than one person killed Meredith - bastards plural? It's really rather rare to find a single woman murdered in her home and find out that more than one person did it. The automatic assumption would be a solo male killer. Would you say it? A strange thing to say indeed. It reminds me very much of her saying she had never invited Rudy to her house "before" in her bugged conversation with her dad. Nasty things those little slips.

She does give you lots of clues you know, but none of you can see it. I have to say, I do sit and wonder sometimes what your faces will be like if Rudy sings.

I have commented frequently on the tendency of untrained minds to think that their own folk-psychological guesswork about other people's internal states, coloured heavily by their own confirmation bias, is a more reliable indicator of the truth than hard, objective science.

They are simply wrong. Their folk-psychological guesswork would be a highly unreliable tool even if it wasn't vulnerable to confirmation bias, and the overt hatred for Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and their families amongst the yay-for-conviction community demonstrates clearly that confirmation bias is going to be a problem for them in making objective calls. So in fact I'd say that their folk-psychological guesswork is in fact worse than useless as it is likely to lead them into a spiral of greater false certainty, greater hatred and greater confirmation bias.

@ LondonJohn - I'm not much bothered but tomorrow, why not simply go outside to a well known road in West London and take a picture with the Sunday paper date clearly shown in it in the frame and the street sign and post it up there and then. Camera, mobile phone. I'm sure you have one. End of lengthy debate. There's no charge for the advice. You can do that, can't you?

I could remark further on that same community's strange obsession with personalising the debate - or rather, personalising the other side of the debate. I haven't yet seen them posting their own names, addresses and CVs in order to bolster their own credibility, yet they seem incredibly interested in finding out these facts about anyone who posts on the internet and disagrees with them.

Maybe it's idle curiosity, but given the fact that people who disagree with them end up being targeted for abuse, harassment, photoshopping and similar I'm not sure that explanation works.

What do you think drives this behaviour, SomeAlibi?
 
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Exactly.
Amanda made her accusation and admission of having been present at the mruder scene, adding in previously unpublicized details about the crime scene, with the aid and of the interpreter.
There was no room for language misunderstandings by the time of her confession.
Nor was there torture, deprivation or unapproved methods of inhterrogation.

It is itime to put these worn out theories of the poor frightened girl collapsing under the evil prosecutor's regime of terror.
She screwed up. She got caught.

It is that simple.

What unpublicized details? Please cite.
 
I have often wondered if they got cold and detached confused with tired and aggravated. How many hours had she been answering the same questions?
No one had been interviewed at that stage, they (Meredith's friends) were waiting to be interviewed by the police.
 
Hang on, that elephant in the room is still there.

What's your alternative hypothesis for the ones and zeroes on Raffaele's hard drive? Gremlins? Fairies? Cosmic rays?


I've tried to say this twice already: the entire point is what do the ones and zeros amount to? If it shows some credible activity then it's massive for Raffaele. But the problem as I've pointed out is directly contradicting direct testimony from Amanda, direct evidence from Raffaele's ISP that there's no internet activity, direct evidence that it's not audio or visual media being played (VLC and iTunes generate event log data either side of the 8 and half hour gap quite happily) and his girlfriend says he's in the kitchen for what three quarters of an hour and making love to her on the bed and falling asleep together in the bed. And yet you want to jury to believe he's constantly interacting with the computer every six minutes or something for nine hours?

Doing what????

He's not on the web, he's not using music or film, there's no event logs from any application at all, just an unsubstantiated "ones and zeros". So back at you; what do the one and zeros actually denote? It better be bloody good because I can't for the life of me think what one does for 9 hours at a laptop without the web, without music, without video, without applications and when your girlfriend says you are elsewhere.

Can you not see why this looks like a massive problem?
 
I have often wondered if they got cold and detached confused with tired and aggravated. How many hours had she been answering the same questions?


Erm, none. She was sitting with her flatmates prior to any questioning. The questions remain - how did she know her throat had been cut and why did she refer to multiple assailants - "bastards" plural? Why did Raffaele tell Kate Mansey two days later that Amanda had discovered the body and provide more details when we know that they were nowhere near the door and never saw the body at all?
 
I believe Fiona among others has expressed a very similar complaint several times.

"Every time we come up with something juicy it turns out to be unsupported - its' so unfair! Why don't we ever get to have the confirmed facts on our side? Why does it so often turn out that the things we claim as fact are total piffle? Reality could not be so cruel to us - the innocenters must be cheating somehow!".

Grotesquely misquoting another member who is no longer here and is unlikely to respond is very poor form and warrants an apology.
 
Erm, none. She was sitting with her flatmates prior to any questioning. The questions remain - how did she know her throat had been cut and why did she refer to multiple assailants - "bastards" plural? Why did Raffaele tell Kate Mansey two days later that Amanda had discovered the body and provide more details when we know that they were nowhere near the door and never saw the body at all?
Another perplexing issue for me was Amanda explaining to the Postal Police that it was not unusual for Meredith to lock her bedroom door (contradicted by Filomena), yet Raffaele had tried forcing the door and I believe Amanda tried looking into Meredith's room from the balcony. Amanda's comment is contradicted by hers and Raffaele's actions prior to the police arriving.
 
I've tried to say this twice already: the entire point is what do the ones and zeros amount to? If it shows some credible activity then it's massive for Raffaele. But the problem as I've pointed out is directly contradicting direct testimony from Amanda, direct evidence from Raffaele's ISP that there's no internet activity, direct evidence that it's not audio or visual media being played (VLC and iTunes generate event log data either side of the 8 and half hour gap quite happily) and his girlfriend says he's in the kitchen for what three quarters of an hour and making love to her on the bed and falling asleep together in the bed. And yet you want to jury to believe he's constantly interacting with the computer every six minutes or something for nine hours?

Doing what????

This is what I refer to as throwing ridicule at the facts from every angle. You have not established that the records purportedly show human activity every six minutes, you just assert it and then ridicule the idea. You have not shown that Amanda ever stated that the computer was not in use, or even that Amanda ever stated anything incompatible with the computer being in use, you just assert it and then ridicule the facts. You have not demonstrated that there is any "event log data" which casts doubt on the error log data, you just assert it and then ridicule the facts.

Add it all together and you've still got the elephant in the room - throughout the entire period in which Meredith could possibly have been murdered, someone was making regular use of that computer.

You can't digest that fact so you struggle for any flimsy excuse to throw doubt on it, regardless of whether the mud you are slinging gives a rational person even the slightest reason to doubt that as a matter of hard, objective fact recorded in ones and zeroes on a magnetic platter, throughout the entire period in which Meredith could possibly have been murdered, someone was making regular use of that computer.

He's not on the web, he's not using music or film, there's no event logs from any application at all, just an unsubstantiated "ones and zeros". So back at you; what do the one and zeros actually denote? It better be bloody good because I can't for the life of me think what one does for 9 hours at a laptop without the web, without music, without video, without applications and when your girlfriend says you are elsewhere.

Can you not see why this looks like a massive problem?

No.

It's an objective fact that it happened. It's recorded in ones and zeroes.

It's now your job to find a theory of the crime which is consistent with the objective facts. If you can't do that, then it's your job if you want to consider yourself a rational human being to amend your beliefs about the case to conform with the new facts.
 
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