Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Malkmus]

Why do you think it makes no sense?

It makes no sense because Patrick's text directly implies that she was still working in the bar.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

Amanda had about $4000 in her bank account. I agree with RoseMontague that Patrick's claim that he switched Amanda from waitressing to handing out flyers and publicity (via the Vogt link upthread) does not make much sense.

Well I don't know what FX rate was between the dollar and euro; nonetheless I doubt that the amount you stated would have been enough for the amount of time Amanda was scheduled to stay in Perugia. I based this opinion on the fact that my eldest child did the same degree and had year abroad. Even handing out flyers and getting paid until she possibly found another job is better than no job.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

In isolation one could conclude that Amanda and nothing to hide were it not for other circumstantial evidence that has been presented.

We need some kind of name for this argument, since it seems to be it's an interesting new variant on circular arguments which I'm not currently aware of a formal name for.

The way it works is, you have one hundred arguments, all of which are garbage and will not survive close, rational examination.

Whenever anyone closely and rationally examines the first one and shows it to be garbage, you respond by saying "Look, there are 99 other arguments that corroborate the conclusion that the rubbish argument pointed to".

Then when they examine the second one and show that it too is rubbish you say "Look, there are still 99 other arguments that corroborate the conclusion that the rubbish argument pointed to".

Then when they examine a third one and show that it too is rubbish you say "Look, there are still 99 other arguments that corroborate the conclusion that the rubbish argument pointed to"...

...and we get to the six hundredth page of the second thread on the topic and we are saying "Will you please stop popping up these same moles for us to whack? For the third time, argument #100 falls apart under close, rational examination!".

Of course the response is still "Yes, but here are still 99 other arguments that corroborate the conclusion that the rubbish argument pointed to. How can you people not see this?".

 

[Moss]

HMMM,
Patrick also gave some quite interesting "testimony" in the media regarding his treatment at the hands of the authorities. Something that Frank has recently pointed out.

The demotion claim in the context of their text message makes no sense.

I vaguely seem to recall that Patrick was miffed about the media misrepresenting his treatment by the police. Was that that?

 

[RoseMontague]

Well I don't know what FX rate was between the dollar and euro; nonetheless I doubt that the amount you stated would have been enough for the amount of time Amanda was scheduled to stay in Perugia. I based this opinion on the fact that my eldest child did the same degree and had year abroad. Even handing out flyers and getting paid until she possibly found another job is better than no job.

I am not sure what your point is. Patrick said it was slow and not to come in, so she didn't go in. If her job was handing out flyers and if as you stated the nighttime was the right time for doing this sort of thing, then he would have told her to drum up some business by handing out as many flyers as she could.

If her job was to wait tables, but there were no customers, then it probably makes sense that he would tell her not to come in. You don't want to pay somebody for doing nothing.

 

[Mary_H]

There are a number of articles. One in People, dated December 10th 2007, Patrick talks about how angry Amanda was . He has said worse things. And, the point is, Patrick has never refuted any of the articles about what he said about Amanda. I believe the only article he refuted, was about police brutality. Hang on, though. They're not pro-Amanda. They will be dismissed. You know, lies.

The Mail article in which Patrick talks about police brutality is the same article in which he talks about firing Amanda. It doesn't make sense that he would refute one half of the interview and not the other half. As far as I know, Patrick wasn't doing a lot of talking and interviewing in the first month or so of the case.

 

[RoseMontague]

I vaguely seem to recall that Patrick was miffed about the media misrepresenting his treatment by the police. Was that that?

I don't think he wanted a calumnia charge.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Circumstantial evidence. I am curious what are your views are on Raffaele and Amanda's reported behaviour in the police station. All of the people waiting to be interviewed by the police who knew Meredith reacted in a similar way except Raffaele and Amanda, are there general norms of behaviour that one would expect to see in such a situation?

 

[Mary_H]

No, I'm Canadian, across the pond. Is it not possible then, that the reason Raff was called into the police station on the 5th, was to explain this story and what he is quoted as saying in it? Seems likely does it not.....

What little information we have about what was said between Raffaele and the police (the Telegraph article and Raffaele's diary) does not mention any of the subject matter that was in that alleged interview with Kate Mansey.

 

[Moss]

I don't think he wanted a calumnia charge.

*sigh* I point thee to Gawdzilla's thread on monocausality in another subforum. Sure, let's just reduce everything to police this and police that. Bliss in simplicity.

 

[Mary_H]

Here is another area where my knowledge about what happened is sorely lacking.

Is there a written version of her 1:45 am statement? How do we know it occurred at 1:45 am?

Thanks in advance to any replies.

Amanda Knox 1:45 a.m. statement to the police
TRANSLATION

QUESTURA DI PERUGIA
SQUADRA MOBILE

Re: Minutes of the information conveyed by:
KNOX Amanda Marie, born in Washington (U.S.A.) on July 9th 1987, domiciled in Perugia, Via della Pergola n. 7; identified by means of Passport n. 422687114 issued by the Government of the U.S.A. on June 13th 2007, tel. 3484673590

On November 6th 2007, at 01.45, in Perugia at the Offices of the Squadra Mobile of the Questura of Perugia. Before the undersigned Officers of the Judicial Authority Chief Inspector, FICARRA Rita, assisted by ZUGARINI Lorena and RAFFO Ivano, respectively on duty at the office above mentioned in the epigraph and in presence of the person mentioned in the re who sufficiently understands and speaks Italian, assisted by the English-speaking interpreter Anna Donnino, who, in relation to the death of KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara and after the precedent declarations, declares the following: ----------------------
“In order to complete what has been retailed before by means of precedent declarations made at this Office, I wish to clarify that I know and see other people who have also come to my house sometimes and who have also met Meredith and of whom I will provide the relevant mobile numbers ----------------------------------------------------
One of these people is Patrik, a colored citizen who is about 1,70-1,75 cm tall, with braids, owner of the pub “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi and I know that he lives in the area near the roundabout of Porta Pesa. Tel. 393387195723, pub where I work twice a week on Mondays and on Thursdays, from 22.00 until about 2.00. -----------------------------------------------
Last Thursday 1st November, day on which I usually work, while I was in the apartment of my boyfriend Raffaele, at about 20.30 I received a message from Patrick on my mobile, telling me that that evening the pub would remain closed because there were no people, therefore I didn’t have to go to work. ----------------------------------------------------------------
I replied to the message saying that we would meet immediately, therefore I went out telling my boyfriend that I had to go to work. I wish to state first that in the afternoon I had smoked a joint with Raffaele, therefore I felt confused because I do not usually make use of narcotics nor harder drugs. -------------------------------------------------------
I met Patrick soon after at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana and we went home. I do not remember if Meredith was already there or if she came later. I find it difficult to remember those moments but Patrick had sex with Meredith with whom he was infatuated but I do not remember well if Meredith had been threatened before. I vaguely remember that he killed her. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Office acknowledges that the statement stops here and KNOX Amanda is put at the disposal of the proceeding Judicial Authority.--------------------------------------------------------
F.L.C.S.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Declaring The recording people

Signed Signed

Rif/Server/F/CDV/Knox/2008 05 08 Traduzione Verbale Knox 01 45

 

[loverofzion]

Amanda worked two jobs to save for her schooling in Italy and I am sure had some help from her family as well. The fact that she got a job for some extra money is a good thing. I have already posted my opinion on why if her job was handing out leaflets why it made no sense for Patrick to tell her not to come in because the bar was slow.

Her job was still in the pub, Patrick had not yet demoted her yet.

 

[loverofzion]

Circumstantial evidence. I am curious what are your views are on Raffaele and Amanda's reported behaviour in the police station. All of the people waiting to be interviewed by the police who knew Meredith reacted in a similar way except Raffaele and Amanda, are there general norms of behaviour that one would expect to see in such a situation?

Usually they would exclude turning cartwheels, or as her family have helpfully called her antics, yoga.

 

[Mary_H]

Daily Mail article

My impression is that the Daily Mail article was created specifically to feed off of the prosecutor's theory of competition and jealousy between Amanda and Meredith. After all, that was Amanda's motive, according to Mignini. The view is reinforced many times in the article, e.g.:

Now, in an exclusive interview with The Mail on Sunday, Patrick reveals his feelings towards the infamous "Foxy Knoxy", and tells how the seemingly quintessential American turned into a tormented monster eaten up by anger towards both himself and Meredith.

"She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge," he says. "By the end, she hated me. But I don't even think she's evil.

Her statements to police have changed four times, the only aspect of her complex personality remaining consistent being her extraordinary envy of her friend and room-mate, Meredith.

"Amanda tried much harder, but was less popular. I didn't realise it at the time, but now I see that she was jealous. She wanted to be the queen bee, and as the weeks passed, it became clear that she wasn't. She hated anyone stealing her limelight ? and that included Meredith."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ls-framed-Merediths-murder.html#ixzz19q2x7qoo

If you want to give that article any credibility, then answer three questions:

1. Is there any other evidence that Patrick had ever met Meredith?

2. Did any of Meredith's friends or family ever mention that she wanted or needed a job at Le Chic?

3. If Patrick was planning to hire Meredith to work for him, then why did the police not interview Patrick before his arrest, given that they interviewed dozens of other of Meredith's passing acquaintances?

The language put in Patrick and Aleksandra's mouths to describe Amanda for that article is totally preposterous. It is typical tabloid fiction.

 

[Mary_H]

Circumstantial evidence. I am curious what are your views are on Raffaele and Amanda's reported behaviour in the police station. All of the people waiting to be interviewed by the police who knew Meredith reacted in a similar way except Raffaele and Amanda, are there general norms of behaviour that one would expect to see in such a situation?

We don't really know how the other people behaved. The spotlight would not be on them in the days following the arrests, when most of the hearsay about Amanda's behavior was collected.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

*sigh* I point thee to Gawdzilla's thread on monocausality in another subforum. Sure, let's just reduce everything to police this and police that. Bliss in simplicity.

If you have an alternative hypothesis you can back up, please present it.

Unsupported ridicule for someone else's hypothesis alone contributes little to the conversation.

 

[Mary_H]

I think that's grasping. I agree a certain amount of simple questioning could have been attempted but it"s also just as likely Amanda kept saying "I don't understand" many times until the interpreter arrived.

I agree.

 

[loverofzion]

We don't really know how the other people behaved. The spotlight would not be on them in the days following the arrests, when most of the hearsay about Amanda's behavior was collected.

The spotlight was not on them because their alibis checked out.
Amanda's unfortunately did not.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Exactly.
Amanda made her accusation and admission of having been present at the mruder scene, adding in previously unpublicized details about the crime scene, with the aid and of the interpreter.
There was no room for language misunderstandings by the time of her confession.
Nor was there torture, deprivation or unapproved methods of inhterrogation.

It is itime to put these worn out theories of the poor frightened girl collapsing under the evil prosecutor's regime of terror.
She screwed up. She got caught.

It is that simple.

No.

 

[loverofzion]

My impression is that the Daily Mail article was created specifically to feed off of the prosecutor's theory of competition and jealousy between Amanda and Meredith. After all, that was Amanda's motive, according to Mignini. The view is reinforced many times in the article, e.g.:








If you want to give that article any credibility, then answer three questions:

1. Is there any other evidence that Patrick had ever met Meredith?

2. Did any of Meredith's friends or family ever mention that she wanted or needed a job at Le Chic?

3. If Patrick was planning to hire Meredith to work for him, then why did the police not interview Patrick before his arrest, given that they interviewed dozens of other of Meredith's passing acquaintances?

The language put in Patrick and Aleksandra's mouths to describe Amanda for that article is totally preposterous. It is typical tabloid fiction.

1. It was reported that Meredith made a drink at Patrick's bar which he liked, and that the then offered her a job.
2. Meredith did not come from a family of means; her parents were divorced, her father a freelance journalist, her mother ill. It is quite likely that she could have used extra income.
3. I doubt the police knew of Patrick's passing acquaintance with Meredith; he had never socialized with her outside the bar; he lived a quiet life with his partner and their young child.

The "language put in Patrick's and Aleksandra's mouths" emanated from their very own minds.