Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

Daily Telegraph

How do you know this is true, that Amanda quit? Where is it cited?
According to Patrick she was demoted, is this accepted as truth? How would one go about finding the conversation between yourself and Capealadin in which you went through all this, which search terms will I use to avoid having to wade through a gazillion posts?

Danceme,

Capealadin and I discussed this via PMs more than we discussed it publicly, and I also discussed it publicly with other people here, including loverofzion. If (using the advanced search function) you search on my username and then various search terms, such as patrick, lumumba, or testimony, you will get some hits. One of them is from 8 September, another is from the previous day, and there are a couple from early October. In one of them you will find a citation of an article from NBC in which Patrick claims he was planning to fire Amanda, which is not the same thing as firing her. In my comments over the last six months, I asked a number of questions, most of which went unanswered. It is not clear how one can be demoted from a job that only pays 5 euros an hour. It is not clear why handing out flyers would necessarily be a demotion, or that Mr. Lumumba needed anyone to hand out flyers (he handed them out himself for Meredith's vigil, IIRC). It is not clear what the source of the firing or demotion is, other than the Daily Telegraph article.

Maybe we can start with the "I fired foxy knoxy" article. Which parts of the November Daily Telegraph article do you believe, and which do you not believe?

 

[Moss]

Excuse my ignorance - what's GOR?

A series of novels by John Norman. With a certain bent.

 

[LondonJohn]

Danceme,

Capealadin and I discussed this via PMs more than we discussed it publicly, and I also discussed it publicly with other people here, including loverofzion. If (using the advanced search function) you search on my username and then various search terms, such as patrick, lumumba, or testimony, you will get some hits. One of them is from 8 September, another is from the previous day, and there are a couple from early October. In one of them you will find a citation of an article from NBC in which Patrick claims he was planning to fire Amanda, which is not the same thing as firing her. In my comments over the last six months, I asked a number of questions, most of which went unanswered. It is not clear how one can be demoted from a job that only pays 5 euros an hour. It is not clear why handing out flyers would necessarily be a demotion, or that Mr. Lumumba needed anyone to hand out flyers (he handed them out himself for Meredith's vigil, IIRC). It is not clear what the source of the firing or demotion is, other than the Daily Telegraph article.

Maybe we can start with the "I fired foxy knoxy" article. Which parts of the November Daily Telegraph article do you believe, and which do you not believe?

Did Lumumba really hand out flyers for Le Chic at the vigil for Meredith? If that's true, then how........interesting.

 

[Moss]

Did Lumumba really hand out flyers for Le Chic at the vigil for Meredith? If that's true, then how........interesting.

Ahem, for. Not at.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the letter

Halides, I looked up some of the old conversations from July on the issue of whether Amanda was fired or quit and came across this post #3422 from you,

Fuji,

Amanda’s cousin Dorothy recalled that Amanda was scared and confused, terrified that a murderer was on the loose (Murder in Italy, p. 131). She told her friend DJ that she was afraid to stay alone or to walk from Corso Garibaldi to her class (p.132). Her letter to her mother says that she needs to talk to her boss because she cannot work at night any longer (p. 133). She and Patrick met on the street on the afternoon of 5 November where she told him she would have to quit (p. 135).

There is a news report to the effect that Mr. Lumumba fired her, but I do not think it has much credibility.

Is this the only citation relating Amanda's desire to quit? Did Amanda's family provide Candace Dempsey with personal letters to use in her book or were these letters available elsewhere?

Danceme,

Her family never received the letter, but her teacher read it in front of the class. One sentence of the letter read (translated), "I need to talk to my boss because I cannot work at night any more."

 

[LondonJohn]

Ahem, for. Not at.

Ah yes. I misread that word. Thank goodness for that - I didn't picture Lumumba as the sort of person who'd use an occasion like that to publicise his bar.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Patrick's testimony

Sorry typo. Just because Amanda was doing to work does not mean she had not been demoted as Patrick testified.

CoulsdonUK,

Can you provide a link that covers Patrick's testimony?

EDT

Andrea Vogt reported on it.

 

[Bob001]

... I agree a certain amount of simple questioning could have been attempted but it"s also just as likely Amanda kept saying "I don't understand" many times until the interpreter arrived.

Just curious here: Under Italian law, if Amanda had told the police at the first minute of her first visit to the police station -- or at any subsequent moment -- "I am an American. I refuse to speak to you until I contact my embassy and retain an attorney," what would the likely consequences have been? Somehow I don't think it would have gone well for her, but I haven't actually read an account of what the law provides, even in theory.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

CoulsdonUK,

Can you provide a link that covers Patrick's testimony?

Only from the media and no doubt that will not be accepted.

 

[RoseMontague]

Sorry typo. Just because Amanda was doing to work does not mean she had not been demoted as Patrick testified.

You wouldn't normally hand out brochures at night. The fact that the bar was slow and Amanda did not need to come in seems to me to indicate she worked in the bar and not out on the street handing out brochures.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

I'm not sure that would be true, it is reasonable to conclude that bars in Perugia would be trying to get students to come in by handing out leaflets "happy hour" etc.

 

[RoseMontague]

Only from the media and no doubt that will not be accepted.

HMMM,
Patrick also gave some quite interesting "testimony" in the media regarding his treatment at the hands of the authorities. Something that Frank has recently pointed out.

The demotion claim in the context of their text message makes no sense.

 

[RoseMontague]

I'm not sure that would be true, it is reasonable to conclude that bars in Perugia would be trying to get students to come in by handing out leaflets "happy hour" etc.

Then if the bar was slow it would have probably done him some good if Amanda handed out some leaflets. Again, makes no sense either way.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

HMMM,
Patrick also gave some quite interesting "testimony" in the media regarding his treatment at the hands of the authorities. Something that Frank has recently pointed out.

The demotion claim in the context of their text message makes no sense.

Why do you think it makes no sense? Did Amanda have any of source of income?

 

[LondonJohn]

Just curious here: Under Italian law, if Amanda had told the police at the first minute of her first visit to the police station -- or at any subsequent moment -- "I am an American. I refuse to speak to you until I contact my embassy and retain an attorney," what would the likely consequences have been? Somehow I don't think it would have gone well for her, but I haven't actually read an account of what the law provides, even in theory.

Well, I don't think police can compel anyone with "witness" status to speak with them. But I believe that the Italian criminal code states that witnesses cannot have their attorney with them during any questioning. That's not to say, of course, that witnesses can't retain attorneys, and confer with them before and after any police questioning.

As for access to the embassy/consulate goes, it's patently obvious that Knox should have contacted the US mission in Italy on 2nd November. I think that it's a measure of her naivety and belief that she had nothing to hide (and therefore nothing to fear) that she didn't make this contact at that point.

Of course, the alternative possibility is that she was culpable in Meredith's murder, and consciously decided to play a dangerous bluffing game where she "played dumb" and deliberately avoided contact with the US embassy/consulate or any legal assistance - since she might have reasoned that to have done so would have been indicative of wanting to protect herself (and thereby turning the police spotlight onto her). Such are the complicated manoeuvers of a criminal mastermind.........

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Only from the media and no doubt that will not be accepted.

CoulsdonUK (and Capealadin),

All other things being equal, I trust the trial testimony more than I trust newspaper accounts. The reporters are sometimes lied to; the reporters may stretch the truth; and the fear of perjury may keep some from lying. Sometimes reports of the trial testimony contain inaccuracies. If that is the point you are making, I agree.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

So there it is then. Anything pro Amanda and Raffaele, that's good reporting and factual.
Anything anti, on the other hand, is dismissed and it's lies. Got it.

Edited by Locknar: 

Edited, breach of rule 0, rule 12; do not misquote members unless you have made it clear you have done so.

It might be worth pondering the idea that life is not fair, and that it's entirely possible for an insular community of hate-junkies to be wrong on the facts or the rational interpretation of every single major point. Just because the community-who-somehow-ban-everyone-who-argues-intelligently-for-Amanda-Knox's-innocence never seem to have the facts on their side does not necessarily mean that the other side is cheating. It might just mean that they're completely wrong on every major issue.

So really, I wouldn't rely on those people as a source of information.

 

[RoseMontague]

Why do you think it makes no sense? Did Amanda have any of source of income?

Amanda worked two jobs to save for her schooling in Italy and I am sure had some help from her family as well. The fact that she got a job for some extra money is a good thing. I have already posted my opinion on why if her job was handing out leaflets why it made no sense for Patrick to tell her not to come in because the bar was slow.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

bank account

Why do you think it makes no sense? Did Amanda have any of source of income?

CoulsdonUK,

Amanda had about $4000 in her bank account. I agree with RoseMontague that Patrick's claim that he switched Amanda from waitressing to handing out flyers and publicity (via the Vogt link upthread) does not make much sense.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Well, I don't think police can compel anyone with "witness" status to speak with them. But I believe that the Italian criminal code states that witnesses cannot have their attorney with them during any questioning. That's not to say, of course, that witnesses can't retain attorneys, and confer with them before and after any police questioning.

As for access to the embassy/consulate goes, it's patently obvious that Knox should have contacted the US mission in Italy on 2nd November. I think that it's a measure of her naivety and belief that she had nothing to hide (and therefore nothing to fear) that she didn't make this contact at that point.

Of course, the alternative possibility is that she was culpable in Meredith's murder, and consciously decided to play a dangerous bluffing game where she "played dumb" and deliberately avoided contact with the US embassy/consulate or any legal assistance - since she might have reasoned that to have done so would have been indicative of wanting to protect herself (and thereby turning the police spotlight onto her). Such are the complicated manoeuvers of a criminal mastermind.........

In isolation one could conclude that Amanda and nothing to hide were it not for other circumstantial evidence that has been presented.