Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[SomeAlibi]

Show us where Amanda's statement says this. Nobody wants to see your inaccurate 2007 newspaper articles.

May i ask if you have actually read the Massei Report? Knox and Sollecito were standing around at the basketball court from 21:27 to about 23:30 according to Curatolo. Time of death was 23:30. Is that how you normally start a party, rape and kill someone before the drugs are even on the table? Ludicrous.

Could you tone down the hostility Withnail please? I realise you find me threatening but it's unpleasant and unnecessary.

The reports (and there are plenty others) are reporting Mignini's summing up speech and as Rose has already told you, the cocaine use is admitted and Mignini's suggestions were not countered or corrected by the defence. The point stands and is admitted. Not very ludicrous.

I have never, throughout my entire time seen anyone suggest that Amanda and Raffaele were at the basektball court for two hours between 21:27 and 23:30. Did you mean what you said - you can't, surely?

BTW, I was part of the proof-reading team of Massei and read the entire thing many times. There's no charge.

 

[tsig]

Thanks.

I found these articles http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1904571,00.html

and http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/05/meredith-kercher-murder-trial. But i am sure you guys read them.

DNA evidence aside, because she lived in the house, according to the article she placed herself at the scene. BUT that was after a 14 hour intense interrogation with no lawyer present AND the way the question of her being there was presented as a "what if" this is according to a an article in The Guardian UK website. I just searched google for "evidence against amanda knox".





That is something that should be known because some cannabis traces would not change a persons character like that but according to what i read in the Guardian article "the prosecution claimed it was hey suggested that the trio had killed Kercher because she refused to join them in a drug-fuelled orgy." They took blood what were the results? If it was some cannabis "drug-fuelled" is kind of weak. BUT its a terrible thing that happened to Meredith so i dont want to go overboard in defending anyone here.

Never happened.

 

[SomeAlibi]

Why would Rudy confess to sexually assaulting and killing Meredith?

To gain credit with the authorities for better treatment and mostly for the benefit of securing best treatment on work release and early parole. He has nothing to lose now and solid reasons to gain. That makes him dangerous to AK and RS.

 

[tsig]

Cannabis and alcohol were blamed for the killing. The trouble is that Amanda definitely wasn't drunk or on drugs when she encountered the witness Popovic at 8:40 pm - she is reported to have been acting completely normally. After that, Amanda and Raff are supposed to have been standing around at the basketball court from 9:27 pm until after the disco buses departed taking the young people to the out of town discos. (Normally around 11:30)

2 problems there:

1) They are not reported to have been drinking, taking drugs or behaving oddly at the basketball court

2) The disco buses were not running that night.


The time of death was (wrongly) estimated to be about 11:30 pm, so Amanda and Raffaele would have needed to run into the cottage just after 11:30, high-five Rudy on the way in, and immediately kill Meredith. There's no time for any other scenario to take place.

I thought it was AK et. al. that were accused of it.

 

[Withnail1969]

The reports (and there are plenty others) are reporting Mignini's summing up speech and as Rose has already told you, the cocaine use is admitted and Mignini's suggestions were not countered or corrected by the defence. The point stands and is admitted. Not very ludicrous.

So you can't provide such a citation.

I have never, throughout my entire time seen anyone suggest that Amanda and Raffaele were at the basektball court for two hours between 21:27 and 23:30. Did you mean what you said - you can't, surely.

You could always try reading the Massei Report as you rudely suggested i do yesterday.

Curatolo Antonio then said that on the evening of November - the specification of the date seems to be certain because it was the night immediately preceding the day on which, as always reported by Curatolo, police and carabinieri began to crowd the area due to the Meredith murder – at about nine-thirty, ten o'clock he was on the bench in Piazza Grimana reading the articles of his interest in L'Espresso weekly magazine. Every now and then he smoked a cigarette, stopped reading the magazine and looked around at the people who lived in or around the Piazza Grimana.
He perceived the presence, at the end of the basketball court, of "two young people that were looking like two sweethearts discussing a bit in a heated way amongst them ... every some time one would get up and walk on the way where is the railing and look down" (page 5 hearing of March 28, 2009). He stated he had not seen them coming and when he looked down at the basketball court they were already there (p. 19). He remembers also the presence of other people. He reported of having seen the two young people until before midnight. He recognized the two people as the two defendants, who were in the room, he indicated them and specified he already knew them having seen them before, although never together but each on their own. (page 18 hearing of 28.3.2009). He added, as he left the Piazza shortly before midnight the two youngsters were not there anymore.

edit to add - in court Curatolo specified that he had seen Amanda and Raffaele from exactly 21:27 onwards.

 

[Supernaut]

Please read SomeAlibi's post. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

No, I'd rather not.

Why don't YOU explain it to me?


(>> edit - never mind, I read his post. Doesn't seem very reasonable to me.)

 

[Withnail1969]

To gain credit with the authorities for better treatment and mostly for the benefit of securing best treatment on work release and early parole. He has nothing to lose now and solid reasons to gain. That makes him dangerous to AK and RS.

I don't follow your reasoning. By the same token he could be dangerous to the prosecution since he could state the others weren't involved.

 

[Supernaut]

......Now Rudy has been fully convicted and has no avenues of appeal left, what is to stop him deciding to tell the truth? If I was Amanda I would be very very worried right now.

 

[Dan O.]

I read something here the other day but it was a few pages back. What is the story with all three peoples DNA being found on the bra clasp?

First of all, the tests that were conducted cannot be used to conclusively state that the DNA was found on the clasp because they cannot rule out the possibility of contamination of the sample in the lab.

The results of the DNA extraction and analysis did show a major contribution was Meredith's and minor contributions from Raffaele and two unidentified females.


When dealing with DNA in the LCN range, the samples are invisible to the naked eye so they cannot be visually tracked to assert they were present on the object being tested. This obstacle is overcome in LCN testing by repeating the sampling and processing the samples in separate facilities to eliminate a common mode source for contamination. Any correlated results between the two tests would then be attributed to the object tested. By keeping track of the contamination rates in the labs, the confidence that the result came from the object can even be expressed mathematically.


The lab in Rome had never done LCN testing so there were no logs that showed the rates of contamination within the LAB at the LCN levels. The material suposedly containing the DNA was never seen on the clasp. The testing was not repeated. I therefore reject the claim that the DNA was on the clasp.

 

[RoseMontague]

Rudy, Amanda and Raffale were getting blasted in the kitchen / communal area at the cottage that evening up until the murder. What time precisely that happened, no one knows. Rudy tells a story of Meredith getting very worked up about missing money and I think that's a transplant of an argument between Meredith and Amanda. Pure supposition. Rudy tried to use the towels to assist Meredith which is why they are completely soaked in blood. That's why he stepped in the blood. Amanda and Raffaele did not. I don't find anything terrible surprising in that.

Chris - what is your take on the cellphone tower at Via Aquila versus Amanda's story of not leaving the flat. Second, do you not find the one joint versus the absolute statement of never smoking marijuana again incongruous? Does it not tell you something about Amanda's truthfulness?

Glad to see you have the conviction to expose your theories to criticism. I believe this is good for the discussion.

On to the cell phone comment, this from Amanda's appeal: (183/184)

All this is denied "by documentary.
(I) Sull'sms received by Patrick Lumumba.
In contrast, the same sentence (path p.. 340) stated that the flat Corso Garibaldi where the urge to Knox says he has received the above SMS and serviced by the primary cell of Via Berardi week. 7 but also the cell via Eagle 5, Water Tower week. 3 and other cell reaches secondarily the home of Raffaele Sollecito.

IIRC, this has been brought up before that Massei says two different things about this cell tower.

 

[SomeAlibi]

I don't follow your reasoning. By the same token he could be dangerous to the prosecution since he could state the others weren't involved.

Which would be potentially great for them (although the police would look into the idea that he was being paid off). Whatever our views on the case, we should all be hoping and wishing Rudy talks - it can only be good for a just finding for or on AK and RS.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Post mainly for Katody:

Thanks SomeAlibi, i notice it is twofold, so let me address the alleged drug use for now.

Amanda said that Raffaele had used cocaine and LSD but I don't think there was anything said about how long previously. Mignini mentioned this in his summing up and it isn't contended that she said it in interview. Poster Jools helped me with some contemporaneous reporting of it.

See this article:
...In her statement Ms Knox claimed that Mr Sollecito had confided to her that in the past he had used cocaine and acid and that he suffered from depression. Mr Sollecito claims that on the evening of the murder he was at his computer until 1am, but police tests are said to have disproved this.
...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2922381.ece

So the article claims she wrote it in her statement. But we have her statement now and we know the article is wrong.

There are Other interesting, but finally not confirmed things in that very early (Nov 2007) article:

Il Messaggero reported yesterday that an unnamed woman professor who lives in the area had told police that she heard a “terrifying scream of fear” as she was passing the cottage at 2am. This would appear to be at odds with the official time of death, which police pathologists orginally put at between midnight and 2am but then moved back to between 10pm and midnight.​

So it is possible they got also this wrong while reporting after some other Italian newspaper which was reporting after what ILE decided to leak.


So Amanda's statement as source of drug allegations is excluded.

The other source you mention is Mignini final statement:

But despite frequent references to all three suspects -- Mignini clearly painted Knox as the mastermind of the crime, an aggressive young woman who harbored hate for her goody-two shoes English roommate and exerted powerful influence over the other two male suspects, who were infatuated with her.

He also mentioned Sollecito's alleged past use of cocaine and LSD...

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/412504_knox20.html

Indeed, that article says

He also mentioned Sollecito's alleged past use of cocaine and LSD and pointed out that Kercher was bothered by Knox's bringing strange men home and keeping a vibrator and condoms in full view in their bathroom.​

So Mignini said it in his closing words, he mentioned also big and scary vibrators along with the "now we will make you have sex".
So we know Italian procurators are allowed to fantasize in their closing words.

What we don't see is any mention of it in the motivation nor in Amanda's trial testimony. That makes me think it is nothing more that allegation.

 

[SomeAlibi]

Here's the video of the walk round the cottage from just across from the far exit to the underground garage to the side of the cottage by Filomena's window. Knock yourself out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe9y4a1u2jk

 

[daydreamer]

I think we have a new winner in the "really, really bizarre things to express incredulity about" stakes.

The people who were incredulous about Amanda shuffling about on a bathmat were pretty special.

The people who were incredulous about the order in which Amanda called Meredith's mobile phones raised the bar very high.

But TomCH has taken it to a whole new level with his incredulity about the possibility that a grown man could throw an 8lb rock a few meters horizontally. I really think this is going to be hard to top.

My take on this is that Rudy made a 1st climb to open the shutters, similar to the lawyer photo. He then saw that the inner shutter was closed and thus decided he needed to blast through the window and the inner shutter with a larger rock. He then backed down to the sloped area, selected a large rock, climbed up to the parking area retaining wall, and from there tossed the rock through the window. (The distance between the wall and the cottage is just a little over 2 meters, not much a throw for a basketball player.) He then climed back up to the window, unlatched the latch, opened both windows, pushed off the grate with his right foot, and with his weight on his hands, lifted his right foot to the sill and stepped through the window.

BTW, to open the outter shutter he needed only to apply as much force as Filomena used to close them. I don't think any "pry tool" was necessary.

And another thing: did the prosecution ever say that the window climb was impossible? I did not see that in the Massie report. If not, then the defense would have no reason to demonstrate that, in fact, it was possible.

 

[SomeAlibi]

Thanks SomeAlibi, i notice it is twofold, so let me address the alleged drug use for now.



So the article claims she wrote it in her statement. But we have her statement now and we know the article is wrong.

There are Other interesting, but finally not confirmed things in that very early (Nov 2007) article:

Il Messaggero reported yesterday that an unnamed woman professor who lives in the area had told police that she heard a “terrifying scream of fear” as she was passing the cottage at 2am. This would appear to be at odds with the official time of death, which police pathologists orginally put at between midnight and 2am but then moved back to between 10pm and midnight.​

So it is possible they got also this wrong while reporting after some other Italian newspaper which was reporting after what ILE decided to leak.


So Amanda's statement as source of drug allegations is excluded.

The other source you mention is Mignini final statement:



Indeed, that article says

He also mentioned Sollecito's alleged past use of cocaine and LSD and pointed out that Kercher was bothered by Knox's bringing strange men home and keeping a vibrator and condoms in full view in their bathroom.​

So Mignini said it in his closing words, he mentioned also big and scary vibrators along with the "now we will make you have sex".
So we know Italian procurators are allowed to fantasize in their closing words.

What we don't see is any mention of it in the motivation nor in Amanda's trial testimony. That makes me think it is nothing more that allegation.

Alleging Class A (in the UK) drug use on the part of defendants is a very serious issue that couldn't possibly remain uncorrected by counsel for the defence in a trial if it was not based on evidence contained in the core trial bundle. The fact that there was no objection or correction is pretty much conclusive. You'll note Rose also says it's admitted.

 

[TomCH]

Why would Rudy confess to sexually assaulting and killing Meredith?

He wouldn't, be cause he didn't. He was just an accessory.

 

[RoseMontague]

Ah yes,
Katody covered that with this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6405905&postcount=8868

About Raffaele's house:
Now it's in range:
Originally Posted by Massei
The area around the defendant’s home was reached by a very strong signal radiated from the Via Berardi sector 7 cell, indicated as being the ‚best server cell‛ with regard to Sollecito’s house; furthermore the signals of other cells are also powerful, respectively that with a pylon in Piazza Lupattelli sector 8 and that with a pylon in Via dell’Acquilla-Torre dell’Acquedotto sectors 3 and 9.
And now when Amanda receives SMS from Patrick it's suddenly out of range:
Quote:
20:18:12: Amanda receives the SMS sent to her by Patrick Lumumba, which let her off from having to go to work at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub on the evening of 1 November. At the time of reception the phone connected to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, whose signal does not reach Raffaele Sollecito’s house.
And now in range again:
Quote:
12.08.44 (lasted 68 seconds) Amanda calls Romanelli Filomena on number 347-1073006; the mobile phone connects to the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 cell (which covers Sollecito’s house)
Quote:
12:11:54 (4 seconds): another call is made towards Meredith’s English mobile phone number (the cell used is the one in Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, thus compatible with Sollecito’s house)
Quote:
12:12:35 (lasting 36 seconds) Romanelli Filomena calls Amanda Knox (No. 348-4673590); Amanda receives the call connecting to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 (still at Raffaele’s house)

 

[Withnail1969]

Alleging Class A (in the UK) drug use on the part of defendants is a very serious issue that couldn't possibly remain uncorrected by counsel for the defence in a trial if it was not based on evidence contained in the core trial bundle. The fact that there was no objection or correction is pretty much conclusive. You'll note Rose also says it's admitted.

LOL. You crack me up. How would the English court view a prosecutor coming up with a fantasy speech such as this:

"You are always acting like a little saint! Now we will make you have sex!"

 

[RoseMontague]

Alleging Class A (in the UK) drug use on the part of defendants is a very serious issue that couldn't possibly remain uncorrected by counsel for the defence in a trial if it was not based on evidence contained in the core trial bundle. The fact that there was no objection or correction is pretty much conclusive. You'll note Rose also says it's admitted.

I believe Raffaele did admit to previous cocaine use (but not any longer), I will try to find a cite later. I did not say anything about the LSD.

 

[SomeAlibi]

My take on this is that Rudy made a 1st climb to open the shutters, similar to the lawyer photo. He then saw that the inner shutter was closed and thus decided he needed to blast through the window and the inner shutter with a larger rock. He then backed down to the sloped area, selected a large rock, climbed up to the parking area retaining wall, and from there tossed the rock through the window. (The distance between the wall and the cottage is just a little over 2 meters, not much a throw for a basketball player.) He then climed back up to the window, unlatched the latch, opened both windows, pushed off the grate with his right foot, and with his weight on his hands, lifted his right foot to the sill and stepped through the window.

BTW, to open the outter shutter he needed only to apply as much force as Filomena used to close them. I don't think any "pry tool" was necessary.

The throw from the drive is very easy for anyone - it's basically level and 2 metres as you say. No basetball skills required.

I don't think it can be right foot up because the glass on the windowsill is completely undisturbed. People pulling up like that, if it were possible, would pull themselves up onto their knees, imho. I still don't understand where he is supposed to have put his right hand during this climb based on the glass distribution. Given the height of the climb, you're also suggesting someone with near-mountaineer strength in his fingers because this would be an unassisted pull-up using finger strength only. If he gets it wrong, he's going to be injured or seriously injured in the fall versus the balcony.

There's no pry tool necessary because the shutters didn't close properly.