Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

"Guede acting alone = good for Knox

Guede acting with others = bad for Knox."

Am I wrong about this. or do you prefer to talk about rock throwing and Guede's remarkable Spiderman attributes?

It appears to me that several posters including myself have addressed this. I agree that leaving Sollecito out of the bad part of your quote is potentially portentous.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

tomorrow

"BUT that was after a 14 hour intense interrogation with no lawyer present"

There we go again!

Take the time that the witness statement was finished, deduct the cartwheels and what have we got? 2 hours?

It's been so long that I first saw this discussed, but surely here is one thing that we can all agree upon.

As for Guede's verdict. The significance, as I see it, is that the court is agreed that he did not act alone.

Guede acting alone = good for Knox

Guede acting with others = bad for Knox.

colonelhall,

I am hesitant to say it is bad for Knox, but I do not know enough about the law to be certain. The Supremes have not heard from AK and RS yet (other than in 2008). I think tomorrow is a much more significant day for AK and RS than yesterday was.

When you do believe Meredith died and why?

 

[Supernaut]

Guilter spin on the failure of Guede's final appeal.

Rather amusing to see them pretending they weren't hoping to see him acquitted, and that it's "bad news for AK and RS". Pathetic, in fact.

This particular spin seems to have been kicked off by the "journalist" and guilter idol Nick Pisa, who seems to be in great demand with certain "news outlets" for whatever reason (Sky News, The Mail, The Telegraph et al). After what he's written over the past 3 years he, and not a few others stand to look like a complete ******** if AK and RS are freed.

It is, of course, the best news possible for the two. Guede's aquittal would have left the Italian Judiciary with little option but to keep them in jail.

Imagine if all three ended up being acquitted - it would effectively have meant mean the entire case would have to re-opened and a new murder manhunt started, making the Italian justice system (edit >> and police) look even worse than Mignini, Giobbi et al have already managed to accomplish.

 

[Chris C]

.... or luminol, or time of death?

The fact is that the court appears to have confirmed that Guede did not act alone. With whom did he act?

There appears to be not one hair not one speck of blood etc. belonging to anyone other than the two accused.

Whatever side of the fence you are on, you've got to say it is looking bad for Knox.

If they would have done some police work they might have figured out who that grey car belonged to. Unlike their super witnesses that the Prosecution found in the newspaper. They knew about the grey car early on. Early in the investigation they tried to match the car as sollecito's, yet when the evidence pointed to a different car they lost interest. So if they truely believe Guede had an accomplish, they should start with that Grey car.

Also there isn't 1 speck of blood or 1 speck of hair of either Knox's or Sollecito's. Not one fingerprint, not 1 footprint. None of that in Meredith's room. Yet Rudy trampled all over that room. How do you explain Rudy leaving traces of himself all over the room and nothing from the other 2.

 

[TomCH]

Since the defence is basically saying Rudy did it, I'm unclear why it's bad that Rudy is still in jail.

The defense claims that Rudy is innocent, and has always claimed so.

 

[SomeAlibi]

Raffaele had tried cocaine when he was younger and this was admitted. There was no evidence that they were on any drugs other than pot and no evidence of any other drug use other than pot on Amanda's part. This is just unsupported speculation just as a 14 hour (continuous) interrogation of Amanda is unsupported by the facts.

Post mainly for Katody:

Amanda said that Raffaele had used cocaine and LSD but I don't think there was anything said about how long previously. Mignini mentioned this in his summing up and it isn't contended that she said it in interview. Poster Jools helped me with some contemporaneous reporting of it.

See this article:
...In her statement Ms Knox claimed that Mr Sollecito had confided to her that in the past he had used cocaine and acid and that he suffered from depression. Mr Sollecito claims that on the evening of the murder he was at his computer until 1am, but police tests are said to have disproved this.
...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2922381.ece

And also see this article re prosecution closing argument, here:

... "The first accusers of Amanda and Raffaele were they themselves," he said.

But despite frequent references to all three suspects -- Mignini clearly painted Knox as the mastermind of the crime, an aggressive young woman who harbored hate for her goody-two shoes English roommate and exerted powerful influence over the other two male suspects, who were infatuated with her.

He also mentioned Sollecito's alleged past use of cocaine and LSD...

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/412504_knox20.html


We don't know what happened that night. My own theory (NB theory) is that Amanda met Rudy at the baseketball court (see her accusation against Patrick transplanting this) or in Corso Garibaldi when she went to work that night (corroborated by the different cellphone tower at Via Aquila) and she asked him if he had any stuff for her to have a little party with Raffaele. They went hooked up with him later at a pre-arranged time and went back to the cottage to jointly indulge in this. My own theory, pure supposition, is that this was harder drugs although Knox's Marie Pace story also has them drinking a lot. The cellphone tower is fairly devastating evidence which the defence has done nothing about substantively given that Knox steadfastly maintains she never left the flat and Raffaele has never retracted his statement she left to go to work.

Now pure hearsay and supposition which has no proof, so look away now: we are also in contact with a number of people in Perugia who knew both Knox and Sollecito. Their version is that he was well known for being a complete dope head (he said that he spent 80% of his time stoned on his myspace) and that he had a reputation as a bit of a spoilt daddy's boy who had a cocaine habit. Not use. Habit. Again, not a shred of evidence of this, simply hearsay but from very connected people.

Knox also perjured herself concerning drugs (at least under our legal systems - you're allowed to lie in the dock in Italy) when asked in testimony how many joints she had that night. She replied "one". See youtube video of her testimony. Yet, if that were the case, how can that possibly be reconciled against her diary (also evidence) where she writes: "I will never smoke marijuana again. When they free me I will go back to the United States, but I will come back to Italy to study. I’m not afraid of this country, it's part of me now. This is place I call home. And before all this happened I was so happy" . Elsewhere in her diary she wrote "That night I smoked a lot of marijuana and I fell asleep at my boyfriend's house. I don't remember anything."

I find it very striking that both Knox and Sollecito both swear in absolute terms that they will never smoke marijuana again. I believe this is because of their regret about what happened that night. In Sollecito's case he blamed his poor memory of the evening because he smoked so much that night so it's understandable. In Knox's case, since she only smoked one joint before bed time (see youtube) why would she make such an absolute statement? Little 'tells' like this are important. I think it's pretty clear she lied under oath about having just one joint.

 

[Chris C]

The defense claims that Rudy is innocent, and has always claimed so.

Whose defense are you talking about, because I'm pretty sure the poster you are commenting on is referring to Knox/Sollecito's defense.

 

[Withnail1969]

The defense claims that Rudy is innocent, and has always claimed so.

Amanda and Raffaele's defence claims Rudy is innocent?

 

[colonelhall]

"It appears to me that several posters including myself have addressed this."

Not with the same enthusiasm reserved for other topics such as rocks and windows.

"according to supernaut "This particular spin seems to have been kicked off by the "journalist" and guilter idol Nick Pisa,""

Do you really have to call him names? I would have thought that most reasonable people would have come to the same conclusion as myself. That is, that this confirms the multiple assailant theory.

By the way, did anyone do the maths on the cartwheels minus end of witness statement sum?

I thought that this would have been useful, seeing as people are still posting the "14 hours" figure as though it were fact.

 

[Chris C]

Post mainly for Katody:

Snip

And at what time was Meredith receiving these bruises? What was Rudy doing for the 3 hours while he was already at the apartment awaiting for the 1130pm arrival time that Mignini proposes? What about his leaving before 10:30pm? How does that fit into the 11:30pm attack time proposed by Mignini? Why is Rudy's finger prints and shoe prints the only 1 of the 3 in the blood?

 

[SomeAlibi]

Rather amusing to see them pretending they weren't hoping to see him acquitted, and that it's "bad news for AK and RS". Pathetic, in fact.

This particular spin seems to have been kicked off by the "journalist" and guilter idol Nick Pisa, who seems to be in great demand with certain "news outlets" for whatever reason (Sky News, The Mail, The Telegraph et al). After what he's written over the past 3 years he, and not a few others stand to look like a complete a-holes if AK and RS are freed.

It is, of course, the best news possible for the two. Guede's aquittal would have left the Italian Judiciary with liitle option but to keep them in jail.

Imagine if all three ended up being acquitted - it would effectively have meant mean the entire case would have to re-opened and a new murder manhunt started, making the Italian justice system look even worse than Mignini, Giobbi et al heve already managed to accomplish.

You're missing the point about why this is bad news. The Supreme Court said in two places that Rudy did not act alone and in fact specified he held Meredith's left arm while others did the killing. Second, counsel for the Kercher's and the prosecution are meeting at the weekend to decide whether to call Guede to the stand in the Knox / Sollecito trial (see interviews in the Italian press). Now Rudy has been fully convicted and has no avenues of appeal left, what is to stop him deciding to tell the truth? If I was Amanda I would be very very worried right now.

 

[TomCH]

It is an interesting point. The testimony of the defense expert indicates he threw a similar rock threw the window for purposes of demonstration. The funny (to me at least) thing about this is that the prosecution got him to admit he missed the window with his first toss and had to have a go at it again, then proceeded to bog him down in a discussion regarding why he chose an overhand throw versus an underhand one (IIRC). I wish I had more details on this.

I would choose overhand as well, albeit more a shot-put style through, so not truly overhand.

And while I'm sure that I could hit the side of the house, I'm not so sure about hitting and breaking the window cleanly on the first toss!

 

[Chris C]

"It appears to me that several posters including myself have addressed this."

Not with the same enthusiasm reserved for other topics such as rocks and windows.

"according to supernaut "This particular spin seems to have been kicked off by the "journalist" and guilter idol Nick Pisa,""

Do you really have to call him names? I would have thought that most reasonable people would have come to the same conclusion as myself. That is, that this confirms the multiple assailant theory.

By the way, did anyone do the maths on the cartwheels minus end of witness statement sum?

I thought that this would have been useful, seeing as people are still posting the "14 hours" figure as though it were fact.

What do cartwheels have to do with being guilty. What names where being directed at "guilter Idol Nick Pisa"?

 

[Supernaut]

"according to supernaut "This particular spin seems to have been kicked off by the "journalist" and guilter idol Nick Pisa,""

Do you really have to call him names?

I don't have to, no, but as it happens he IS an ******* and a media whore

I would have thought that most reasonable people would have come to the same conclusion as myself. That is, that this confirms the multiple assailant theory.

No, reasonable people would not.

 

[Supernaut]

What do cartwheels have to do with being guilty. What names where being directed at "guilter Idol Nick Pisa"?

See above

 

[colonelhall]

"What do cartwheels have to do with being guilty. "

Are you deliberately missing the point?

Are you able to ascertain the time at which the witness "interview" started? It must have been some time after the cartwheels, which were at around 11.30.

Did the interview end at 1:45?

I do not wish to go on, but surely it would be easy to confirm that the interview lasted around 2 hours, no?

 

[Withnail1969]

Post mainly for Katody:

Amanda said that Raffaele had used cocaine and LSD but I don't think there was anything said about how long previously. Mignini mentioned this in his summing up and it isn't contended that she said it in interview. Poster Jools helped me with some contemporaneous reporting of it.

Show us where Amanda's statement says this. Nobody wants to see your inaccurate 2007 newspaper articles.

We don't know what happened that night. My own theory (NB theory) is that Amanda met Rudy at the baseketball court (see her accusation against Patrick transplanting this) or in Corso Garibaldi when she went to work that night (corroborated by the different cellphone tower at Via Aquila) and she asked him if he had any stuff for her to have a little party with Raffaele. They went hooked up with him later at a pre-arranged time and went back to the cottage to jointly indulge in this.

May i ask if you have actually read the Massei Report? Knox and Sollecito were standing around at the basketball court from 21:27 to about 23:30 according to Curatolo. Time of death was 23:30. Is that how you normally start a party, rape and kill someone before the drugs are even on the table? Ludicrous.

 

[SomeAlibi]

And at what time was Meredith receiving these bruises? What was Rudy doing for the 3 hours while he was already at the apartment awaiting for the 1130pm arrival time that Mignini proposes? What about his leaving before 10:30pm? How does that fit into the 11:30pm attack time proposed by Mignini? Why is Rudy's finger prints and shoe prints the only 1 of the 3 in the blood?

Rudy, Amanda and Raffale were getting blasted in the kitchen / communal area at the cottage that evening up until the murder. What time precisely that happened, no one knows. Rudy tells a story of Meredith getting very worked up about missing money and I think that's a transplant of an argument between Meredith and Amanda. Pure supposition. Rudy tried to use the towels to assist Meredith which is why they are completely soaked in blood. That's why he stepped in the blood. Amanda and Raffaele did not. I don't find anything terrible surprising in that.

Chris - what is your take on the cellphone tower at Via Aquila versus Amanda's story of not leaving the flat. Second, do you not find the one joint versus the absolute statement of never smoking marijuana again incongruous? Does it not tell you something about Amanda's truthfulness?

 

[colonelhall]

Supernaut: "No, reasonable people would not."

Please read SomeAlibi's post. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

...... made clearly and without recourse to insults.

 

[Withnail1969]

You're missing the point about why this is bad news. The Supreme Court said in two places that Rudy did not act alone and in fact specified he held Meredith's left arm while others did the killing. Second, counsel for the Kercher's and the prosecution are meeting at the weekend to decide whether to call Guede to the stand in the Knox / Sollecito trial (see interviews in the Italian press). Now Rudy has been fully convicted and has no avenues of appeal left, what is to stop him deciding to tell the truth? If I was Amanda I would be very very worried right now.

Why would Rudy confess to sexually assaulting and killing Meredith?