Who started both World Wars?

[9/11-investigator]

It looks like the defenders of the PH official story have backed off.

No surprises here.

 

[MG1962]

You really want to suggest that '99% of the people of Europe' has spend anything like the time on this subject like we here have? Of course not. 'The masses' sit in the cinema, thumb in mouth, and watch Schindler List. Gimme a break.
We have learned the following so far:

Ahh so only those of superior intellect need apply

 

[uke2se]

It looks like the defenders of the PH official story have backed off.

No surprises here.

No, I'm still here. You still haven't responded to my latest post on the subject. Either you have me on ignore, or your powers of denial are acting up again.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Ahh so only those of superior intellect need apply

I would say the dedicated.
Superior intellect helps though.

 

[uke2se]

I would say the dedicated.
Superior intellect helps though.

Fine. At least you admit that 99% of Europeans (at least) disagree with you. What happened to all your bluster about Europeans rising up and joining hands in a racial war against the US and Israel and what not? If 99% (at least) of Europeans disagree with you, that's going to leave you pretty lonesome on the barricades, like I've told you over and over again.

 

[uke2se]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLbwXGse12w&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWmkXm9z9Oc&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDkt9l2jRGw&NR=1

For those wondering what the heck this is about, I did some poking around. Since I don't speak German, and because the video description fails to mention who is speaking, I researched the only name given: Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof. I can only assume that the "lecture" is about his book or about his ideas.

Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof wrote a book blaming Poland for the outbreak of WWII. It ignored evidence to the contrary, and was pretty much ignored in turn by historians, as it wasn't scientific and basically just BS. It got lambasted in reviews by Die Welt and Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung calling it “myth-creating” and “abstruse”.

Thus, Nein11 continues his long history of not providing evidence or providing non-scientific evidence by rejected and debunked deniers of history.

 

[Rich_C]

The American government knew everything, in particular the attack on PH 11 months in advance:

You failed to prove this. In fact, everything you posted proves you wrong, but you either don't realize it or are too dishonest to admit it.

Yamamoto STARTED drafting plans in January 1941. Nothing was approved until that summer. How did the American government know about something that wasn't set yet?

Magic meant the diplomatic codes were broken. Your assertion that they had broken the military codes is unfounded. And even if they had, it would be hours before the attack, not 11 months.

 

[Hans]

Ah I noticed that the liar 9/11 has ignored that fact that once again he lied about Czech history.

What is that 112 lies so far, LOL

Someone should keep track of just how much this guy ignores on his path to being the Crown Prince of denial!

 

[9/11-investigator]

For those wondering what the heck this is about, I did some poking around. Since I don't speak German, and because the video description fails to mention who is speaking, I researched the only name given: Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof. I can only assume that the "lecture" is about his book or about his ideas.

The 3 videos I linked to showed Walter Post, a historian and he spoke about PH.
The first speaker was Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof, a retired Bundeswehr General and he wrote a book about the events leading to the war with Poland. The second speaker is Stefan Scheil and discusses Barbarossa. He is a freelance historian, meaning he has some room to move and speak his mind. But he is a trained historian.

Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof wrote a book blaming Poland for the outbreak of WWII. It ignored evidence to the contrary, and was pretty much ignored in turn by historians, as it wasn't scientific and basically just BS. It got lambasted in reviews by Die Welt and Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung calling it “myth-creating” and “abstruse”.

Wrong. He wrote a book titled 'The war that had many fathers', implying that the war had not one father, be it Poland or Germany. The press in Germany defends the Zionist line of WW2 as the 'good war'. We are moving on from that point of view now that the West is committing suicide on the basis of WW2 lies.

 

[SanityGap]

Are you aware of which way the Enterprise was going and where it should have been on the 6th?
A clue-it would have been sunk in all probability.

Still waiting.
While you're at it, who sanctioned the carriers leaving? According to you he was kept in the dark about the "plot", so why would he do it?

 

[9/11-investigator]

Still waiting.
While you're at it, who sanctioned the carriers leaving? According to you he was kept in the dark about the "plot", so why would he do it?

I am not interested in participating in quizzes. Make your point.

My guess would be that the US still wanted to win the future war with Japan and for that task it needed these carriers. And these carriers were indeed essential in the victory over Japan. At the same time these carriers had the potential to protect the fleet. Can't have that. PH was enscened by Roosevelt to overcome internal resistance against participating in the war.

It is interesting that none of my oppopnents disputes the authenticity of the Stimson quote and as a consequence the insight that the Roosevelt government was indeed willingly maneuvering into war, yet anxious not to fire the first shot. Yet my opponents insist that the Roosevelt government was nevertheless 'surprised' about PH.

May I ask my opponents for a list of possible targets the Japanese might have had, if not PH?

Political incorrect timeline:

- Germany and Japan sign coorperation pact
- 10 days later some military advisor advises Roosevelt that an oil embargo would force Japan to get oil from the Dutch East Indies; Japan was for 80% dependent on American oil deliveries.
- Roosevelt implements oil emargo and demands nothing less than the complete dismantling of the Japanese empire
- Against knowledge of Congress, Roosevelt illegally plotted with British and Dutch that the US would move into war once Japan would try to get the oil from the Dutch East Indies
- Japan's industry is oil starved and is under pressure to act
- The American fleet in PH is a deadly threat to the success of that oil-getting enterprise and hence needs to eliminated. The US government is wel aware of that

And yet my opponents want to claim that PH was a complete surprise to the US government, because they are well aware of the implications of such an admission to the contrary, namely that the US government is a war monger par excellence and not at all the brave liberator it likes to portray itself.

Get a life!

The US was the largest European entity on the planet and hence destined to play a prominent role on the world stage (now outdone by the formation of the 500 million EU). The US government aspired for world hegemony and got it thanks to the maneuvering of Roosevelt. Pearl Harbor and Poland was a merely an excuse of arriving at that position. And Nuremberg and the invention of the holo-story was nothing more than the patina of moral justification of the entire enterprise. And of that story, totally serving the interests of the Jews against that of Europeans, either in europe or America, I am sick and tired. America has proven that it is unable to defend the interests of the civilization bearing part of it's population, the Europeans. Therefore America, essentially a tool of the Jews, needs to go.

 

[SanityGap]

You claimed the two carriers were sent away from PH. Your refusal to answer a straight forward question about one of those carriers (where it was going and where it should have been on the 7th) and who sanctioned the use of them is the point.

Evasion and lack of knowledge of documented history noted (again).

 

[9/11-investigator]

You failed to prove this. In fact, everything you posted proves you wrong, but you either don't realize it or are too dishonest to admit it.

Yamamoto STARTED drafting plans in January 1941. Nothing was approved until that summer. How did the American government know about something that wasn't set yet?

Magic meant the diplomatic codes were broken. Your assertion that they had broken the military codes is unfounded. And even if they had, it would be hours before the attack, not 11 months.

For our discussion it is irrelevant if the Americans knew about Yamamoto's plans in january. The discussion point is if the Roosevelt government willingly sacrificed more than 2000 of it's own men in order to get into war.

You admit that diplomatic codes were broken. That means that the US gov was aware of what was going on in Japan and the decision to declare war on the US weeks before December 7. You are aware that Roosevelt was maneuvering for the Japanese to fire the first shots (Congress and the American population were the real targets, remember?). From Stimsons diary it becomes clear that the US gov was expecting an attack any day. So how on earth could they be surprised about the attack of PH?

But the most important consideration is not if the the Roosevelt gov did know about the location of the Japanese fleet days before December 7, but that they willingly maneuvered into war anyway. That becomes clear from the implementation of the oil embargo and the discussion of the coming war in the White House with Stimson. That is all you need to know about the intentions of the US government. They were looking for war.

Anybody who wants to deny that?

 

[9/11-investigator]

http://rationalrevolution.net/war/mccollum.htm

McCollum memorandum Oktober 1940:
(declassified in 1994)

Written a few days after the agreement between Germany and Japan.

- it admits that Germany is not looking for war with the USA (point 2)! Look at the last lines of this point where it is said that the last thing the axis powers want is interference of America.
- from point 3 it becomes clear that the US is doing anything it can short of war in aiding Britain. Britain as we remember declared war on Germany (pushed into it by the Jewish funded Focus lobby group lead by Churchill) where Germany did everything it could in trying to achieve peace with Britain, even after the (forced) invasion of Western Europe, culminating into the flight of Hess to Britain on the eve of the preemptive attack on the Soviet Union.
- in point 6 a list of strengths and weaknesses of Japan follows
- point 7 summes up the geostrategic position of the US in the 'theatre'
- point 8 discusses the ridiculous assummption of how to prevent a strike of Germany and Italy against the US
- The crucial point is in the last line of the memorandum. It advises a total embargo on trade with Japan, hinting that this might very well lead to war with Japan (a nation that had a GBP of merely 10% of that of the US)

Roosevelt followed up on that advise and got the war he wanted. From provincial backwater the US morphed itself into world power, a result not mentioned in the memorandum, but that could have been easily foreseen.

 

[Tolls]

Slowly, alert is not equal to warning...

A war warning went out, which was intended to put US Pacific forces on alert since hostile activity by the Japanese was expected to be imminent. If this were not the case then why did the forces in the Phillipines act on this warning? Why did Short act on this warning (see post regarding deployment of aircraft)?

So, answer the question. Were the US forces warned to be on alert for Japanese attack 10 days prior to Pearl Harbour? If so, then how can Short be a scapegoat?

Answer, for once, the bloody question.

 

[Dave Rogers]

You admit that diplomatic codes were broken. That means that the US gov was aware of what was going on in Japan and the decision to declare war on the US weeks before December 7. You are aware that Roosevelt was maneuvering for the Japanese to fire the first shots (Congress and the American population were the real targets, remember?). From Stimsons diary it becomes clear that the US gov was expecting an attack any day. So how on earth could they be surprised about the attack of PH?

Compare the two bolded parts, and you might be able to figure out the answer for yourself.

But the most important consideration is not if the the Roosevelt gov did know about the location of the Japanese fleet days before December 7, but that they willingly maneuvered into war anyway. That becomes clear from the implementation of the oil embargo and the discussion of the coming war in the White House with Stimson. That is all you need to know about the intentions of the US government. They were looking for war.

Anybody who wants to deny that?

Yes. The whole point of the oil embargo was to prevent Japan from waging an aggressive war in China. Japan had, in fact, all the fuel it needed for peaceful domestic consumption, so if it had ceased its advances into China it would have suffered nothing at all from the oil embargo. At the time, economic sanctions were still seen as a possibly viable means of preventing militant nations from embarking on wars of aggression, although the belief was pretty much on its last legs as a result of Italy and Germany's completely unprovoked attacks on their neighbours (we're talking about reality now, BTW, not 9/11-investigator's fantasy world). So the oil embargo was not intended as a means of provoking, but a means of preventing, a war with Japan.

Changing the subject a little, does 9/11-investigator think the Pearl Harbor attack was the only thing that happened on December 7th/8th, 1941? If the attack had been less successful, how does he think history would have differed; for example, would the USA have decided not to go to war with Japan, or would Hitler have chosen not to declare war on the USA? If so, why?

Time for a little more self-taught junior school history, 9/11, old chap. What else happened the same day?

Dave

 

[9/11-investigator]

Interesting resource for the PH discussion:

http://rationalrevolution.net/war/fdr_provoked_the_japanese_attack.htm

Contains the Hull memorandum, meaning the 'peace terms' diktat of the Americans versus the Japanese. The American american ambassador to Japan remarked about it:

"The document that touched the button that started the war."

 

[9/11-investigator]

A war warning went out, which was intended to put US Pacific forces on alert since hostile activity by the Japanese was expected to be imminent. If this were not the case then why did the forces in the Phillipines act on this warning? Why did Short act on this warning (see post regarding deployment of aircraft)?

So, answer the question. Were the US forces warned to be on alert for Japanese attack 10 days prior to Pearl Harbour? If so, then how can Short be a scapegoat?

Answer, for once, the bloody question.

Looks to me like the American government told that part of the forces to be vigilant where no attack was to be expected anyway. The UG gov wanted a self-inflicted wound to show to the American public.

But now I have a question to you:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=103

The latter question was answered in the affirmative on October 30, 2000, when President Bill Clinton signed into law, with the support of a bipartisan Congress, the National Defense Authorization Act. Amidst its omnibus provisions, the Act reverses the findings of nine previous Pearl Harbor investigations and finds that both Kimmel and Short were denied crucial military intelligence that tracked the Japanese forces toward Hawaii and obtained by the Roosevelt Administration in the weeks before the attack.

Congress was specific in its finding against the 1941 White House: Kimmel and Short were cut off from the intelligence pipeline that located Japanese forces advancing on Hawaii. Then, after the successful Japanese raid, both commanders were relieved of their commands, blamed for failing to ward off the attack, and demoted in rank.

It is bloody Congress in the year 2000 itself that admits that the Roosevelt government knew that the Japanese fleet was approaching PH. Kimmel and Short apparently got rehabilitated!!!!

So why should I care what some less than amateur historians like you guys think about PH??!!

 

[twinstead]

So why should I care what some less than amateur historians like you guys think about PH??!!

You owe me ANOTHER irony meter

 

[9/11-investigator]

The Kimmel family has a website of it's own:

http://www.kimmelfamily.net/Husband3.htm

This is what Congress said in 2000:

(3) Numerous investigations following the attack on Pearl Harbor have documented that Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short were not provided necessary and critical intelligence that was available, that foretold of war with Japan, that warned of imminent attack, and that would have alerted them to prepare for the attack, including such essential communiques as the Japanese Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot message of September 24, 1941, and the message sent from the Imperial Japanese Foreign Ministry to the Japanese Ambassador in the United States from December 6 to 7, 1941, known as the Fourteen-Part Message.

(5) Admiral William Harrison Standley, who served as a member of the investigating commission known as the Roberts Commission that accused Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short of `dereliction of duty' only six weeks after the attack on Pearl Harbor, later disavowed the report, maintaining that `these two officers were martyred' and `if they had been brought to trial, both would have been cleared of the charge'...

(7) On June 15, 1944, an investigation conducted by Admiral T. C. Hart at the direction of the Secretary of the Navy produced evidence, subsequently confirmed, that essential intelligence concerning Japanese intentions and war plans was available in Washington but was not shared with Admiral Kimmel.

(B) detailed information and intelligence about Japanese intentions and war plans were available in `abundance' but were not shared with Lieutenant General Short's Hawaii command; and

(C) Lieutenant General Short was not provided `on the evening of December 6th and the early morning of December 7th, the critical information indicating an almost immediate break with Japan, though there was ample time to have accomplished this'.

(16) On July 21, 1997, Vice Admiral David C. Richardson (United States Navy, retired) responded to the Dorn Report with his own study which confirmed findings of the Naval Court of Inquiry and the Army Pearl Harbor Board of Investigation and established, among other facts, that the war effort in 1941 was undermined by a restrictive intelligence distribution policy, and the degree to which the commanders of the United States forces in Hawaii were not alerted about the impending attack on Hawaii was directly attributable to the withholding of intelligence from Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short.

The last sentence implies that the Roosevelt government knew about the impending attacks on PH.
We can see this is as a sort of rare (very late) revenge of institution of Congress against the institution of the presidency, which outright had misled Congress in 1941 during the days of infamy.