Merged H1N1 Flu Vaccine and "miscarriages"

[Skeptic Ginger]

(Mis-aptly named) Skeptic Ginger,

You've obviously bought the CDC pandemic story hook, line and sinker and therefore are not a skeptic but instead an ardent believer in the party line despite the atrocious level of evidence supporting it.

The CDC and the medical profession have been using the same scare tactics to support vaccination that religious missionaries used to control populations on 7 continents over the centuries - do as you're told or you will die and go to hell!

Most educated people can see past the religious claptrap nowadays but are still blinded by the pseudo-science used to support the vaccine scam in general and in this case, the H1N1 scam.

The trick is being able to even consider the possibility that the authorities are lying to us for fun and profit (but mostly profit!) Once you've stepped out of the box, all sorts of options suddenly become conceivable and therefore worthy of investigation.

Is there a conspiracy to reduce the population using vaccines? Is this a bio-weapon development project? I have no idea but there's no escaping the fact that every vaccine successfully sold to the health departments for mass inoculation represents significant profits to the manufacturers. And at no risk to them thanks to their immunity-protection clauses. Heck, how do I get in on this money-spinner?

Ask Mr Rumsfeld how much profit he made selling the anti-viral Tamiflu during the pandemic or better yet, wait for his biography as he might do a George W and just admit how he suckered us!

Well there you go. Your belief system is based on the premise the vast majority of highly educated, highly experienced health care providers and medical researchers in the entire world are duped.

But a handful of fringe providers and a bunch of uneducated reporters and bloggers and other people with no medical education and no medical experience can see what the rest of us duped practitioners cannot.

And this applies to the entire world, all countries, all people doing research in universities and all research funded by non-profit organizations.

You have to wonder how it is any of we duped providers managed to ever increase life expectancy in the countries we practice in. Cancer cures, are they fake? The drug that took my autoimmune arthritis pain away is really a placebo? Heart transplants, liver transplants, bone marrow transplants.... all that by those ignorant duped medical providers. Wow, that's some belief system you have there.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

How it works is you make a claim it's up to you to support the claim. 'We' don't have to do anything.

Convince us. Various people have posted and backed up their posts with facts, figures and references. You have opinion and anectdote.

'Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence' as the saying goes.

It's not even this. I have no issue with people who are misled reading some anti-vaxxer propaganda. I will when I have the energy and time, make an effort to address their misconceptions.

But when I do that and the facts are ignored, then you have someone who has a very distorted view of reality. And then it becomes a waste of time debating such a person.

Trusetheeker is trying to argue that misleading propaganda trumps evidence, education and experience.

I'm certainly not duped. And clearly I'm not in on the conspiracy. I make a decent living but I don't own stock in any drug company and get no kickbacks.

In addition to ignoring the incredible success of modern medicine, people like trusetheeker also have a very strange belief that a few drug companies rule the world. It's very sad we cannot easily get through to people like this.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I thought that you'd never ask! According to Andrew Pollack in a nytimes.com article from 31 Jul 2009, Nasal Vaccine Holds Promise Against Swine Flu, the government paid $11 per dose for 12.5 million doses from MedImmune. Although they probably paid different prices for other supplies, this at least gives an idea of how much over the top you're paying for your dose.

MedImmune is the sole provider of nasal (live flu) vaccine.

I pay about the same for a wholesale dose of vaccine. I have overhead, malpractice insurance, buy syringes and other supplies, have to pay to dispose of medical waste, I travel to the worksite to give vaccine, take the time to explain whatever people want to know about the vaccine. And I need to make a living. Also, public health gets a huge discount for buying in bulk.

So where is it you think people are being ripped off here?

Of course, some of these companies have been developing their H1N1 vaccine for 5 years and will have spent billions in the process. It would have been a crying shame if we didn't have a pandemic what with all that money invested !

Are you faulting these manufacturers because they developed the means to make flu vaccines way more than 5 years ago, BTW, or do you think they made this vaccine before the virus was ever seen?

...
Some professionals who are on the case!

Dr. Tim O'Shea
Dr. Russell Blaylock
Dr. Joseph Mercola

And no, I cannot say that I know how epidemiologists go about their jobs even though I do have an idea what they do. I'm not questioning their skill and dedication. I do know how homeopathist go about their jobs but that doesn't mean that I accept their findings or viewpoints without question.



I was not referring to vaccines in my comment about poisons. I was referring to treatments such as chemotherapy.

And yes, I do know something about the morbidity and mortality of a number of "infectious" diseases - especially viruses. However, I don't subscribe to the germ theory of disease or the predatory virus theory. Even if I did, I wouldn't agree with the excessive campaign of vaccinations for every virus known to man or the one-size-fits-all mindset.

OK. let's see. Three doctors vs a few hundred thousand doctors and about a million or more other health care providers and researchers.

Yep, you have a case there.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think I've posted enough facts here for any lurkers who are really interested in sorting through anti-vaxxer myth vs scientific evidence based medicine. I don't think that any more I would have to add will have any impact on trusetheeker. So forgive me for bowing out of this discussion. I have more productive things I need to do right now.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Eos,

...Good night and dog bless!

Trusetheeker

Mr/Ms Trusetheeker, can you please tell us your level of education? I see you failed to elaborate on my previous query about the Eileen Dannemann's education. Truly, if you know it, I would like an answer.

Also, what does your username mean? Why are you riffing off of a regular's 'nym "TruthSeeker"? (which was used in replies to you)

And if you are offended by the previous questions, I apologize. I am just asking questions.

 

[Emet]

Eileen Dannemann appears to blame vaccines for more than miscarriages:

Psychiatric, prescription drugs are the cause of homicides and suicides. The root cause of what “appears” to be mental illness, depression, hyperactivity, etc is the mass vaccination of generations.

Most, if not virtually all, school shootings, homicides and suicides amongst young people are due to the following chain: Mass vaccinations:...

linky (comments--December 7, 2009)



ETA: And the more one searches, the weirder it gets.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

According to Gary Krasner in The Dangers of Smallpox Vaccination:
Trusetheeker

Trusetheeker, the point at which anti-vaxxers start claiming that smallpox was eliminated from the slums of Lagos, Nairobi and Port au Prince because someone gave them a flannel and some nice soap for Christmas is the point where that anti-vaxxer's competent relatives need to set about obtaining power of attorney over the major life decisions of their deluded family member.

The trick is being able to even consider the possibility that the authorities are lying to us for fun and profit (but mostly profit!) Once you've stepped out of the box, all sorts of options suddenly become conceivable and therefore worthy of investigation.

And we all enjoy a bit of mental masturbation, the real trick is not to confuse those masturbatory fantasies with the real world.

The common feature of anti-vaxxers and SCAMSsters of all varieties is that they get to hold their fatuous beliefs safely in a health environment secured for them by precisely those scientific and medical advances that they choose to denigrate. Fortunately most of us are not seriously ill most of the time and idiotic health beliefs do not have immediately dangerous consequences. It is also noticeable that when push comes to shove, the magic pills and ear candles are suddenly relegated to being mere adjuncts to real medicine. However, the consequences become more serious when they underlie a public mood that undermines good medical practice, as we saw with all the yummy-mummies who chose not to give MMR vaccines to their kids.

 

[Capsid]

To address the misconception that big pharma are conning us. This report shows that philanthropic organisations (Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation) fund global vaccination programmes without profit.

The vaccine is revolutionary because it has been developed without the help of the giant pharmaceutical companies and is aimed at the needs – and wallets – of an African population. It will cost just 50 cents a dose (about 30p).

That's a big endeavour for a concept that doesn't work.

 

[Hellbound]

I want to take a closer look at this statement:

they were able to eradicate cholera, yellow fever, tuberculosis, typhus, typhoid, scarlet fever, diptheria, whooping cough, measles, and the bubonic plague long before vaccinations were developed or routinely used.

Cholera:

Worldwide it affects 3-5 million people and causes 100,000-130,000 deaths a year as of 2010. Cholera was one of the earliest infections to be studied by epidemiological methods.

Yellow Fever

The WHO estimates that yellow fever causes 200,000 illnesses and 30,000 deaths every year in unvaccinated populations;[4] around 90% of the infections occur in Africa.[5]

Tuberculosis

In 2007 there were an estimated 13.7 million chronic active cases, 9.3 million new cases, and 1.8 million deaths, mostly in developing countries.[6]

Typhus

According to the UN WHO, typhus continues to kill approximately a weighted average of 0.2 people per million, per annum[9]. Given a global population of circa 7 billion inhabitants, this equates to a minimum of 1400 deaths per year.

Typhoid

With an estimated 16–33 million cases of annually resulting in 216,000 deaths in endemic areas, the World Health Organization identifies typhoid as a serious public health problem. Its incidence is highest in children and young adults between 5 and 19 years old.[21]

Scarlet Fever

United States
In the past century, the number of cases of scarlet fever has remained high, with marked decrease in case-mortality rates secondary to widespread use of antibiotics. Transmission usually occurs via airborne respiratory particles that can be spread from infected patients and asymptomatic carriers. The infection rate increases in overcrowded situations (eg, schools, institutional settings). Immunity, which is type specific, may be induced by a carrier state or overt infection. In adulthood, incidence decreases markedly as immunity develops to the most prevalent serotypes. Complications (eg, rheumatic fever) are more common in recent immigrants to the United States.

Diptheria

Historically quite common, diphtheria has largely been eradicated in industrialized nations through widespread vaccination. In the United States for example, there were 52 reported cases of diphtheria between 1980 and 2000; between 2000 and 2007 there were only three cases[6] as the DPT (Diphtheria–Pertussis–Tetanus) vaccine is recommended for all school-age children.

Outbreaks, though very rare, still occur worldwide, even in developed nations such as Germany and Canada. After the breakup of the former Soviet Union in the late 1980s, vaccination rates in its constituent countries fell so low that there was an explosion of diphtheria cases. In 1991 there were 2,000 cases of diphtheria in the USSR. By 1998, according to Red Cross estimates, there were as many as 200,000 cases in the Commonwealth of Independent States, with 5,000 deaths.[9] This was so great an increase that diphtheria was cited in the Guinness Book of World Records as "most resurgent disease".

Whooping Cough

Worldwide whooping cough affects 48.5 million people yearly resulting in nearly 295,000 deaths.[15] This is despite generally high coverage with the DTP and DTaP vaccines, pertussis is one of the leading causes of vaccine-preventable deaths world-wide.[citation needed] Ninety percent of all cases occur in developing countries.[citation needed]
Before vaccines, an average of 157 cases per 100,000 persons were reported in the U.S., with peaks reported every two to five years; more than 93% of reported cases occurred in children under 10 years of age. The actual incidence was likely much higher. After vaccinations were introduced in the 1940s, incidence fell dramatically to less than 1 per 100,000 by 1970. Incidence rates have increased somewhat since 1980.
Pertussis is the only vaccine-preventable disease that is associated with increasing deaths in the U.S. The number of deaths increased from 4 in 1996 to 17 in 2001, almost all of which were infants under one year.[18] In Canada, the number of pertussis infections has varied between 2,000 to 10,000 reported cases each year over the last 10 years.[19] Australia reports an average of 10,000 cases a year, but the number of cases has increased in recent years.[20] In 2010 ten infants in California died and health authorities declared an epidemic.[21] Doctors had been misdiagnosing the infants' condition despite having seen infants on multiple visits.[22]

Measles

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), measles is a leading cause of vaccine-preventable childhood mortality. Worldwide, the fatality rate has been significantly reduced by a vaccination campaign led by partners in the Measles Initiative: the American Red Cross, the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the United Nations Foundation, UNICEF and the World Health Organization (WHO). Globally, measles fell 60% from an estimated 873,000 deaths in 1999 to 345,000 in 2005.[17] Estimates for 2008 indicate deaths fell further to 164,000 globally, with 77% of the remaining measles deaths in 2008 occurring within the South-East Asian region.[22]

Bubonic Plague

...human plague in the United States has occurred as mostly scattered cases in rural areas (an average of 10 to 15 persons each year). Globally, the World Health Organization reports 1,000 to 3,000 cases of plague every year.

And now, for something completely different:
Smallpox[/quote]

The last naturally occurring case of smallpox occurred in Somalia in 1977. The last cases of smallpox in the world occurred in an outbreak of two cases (one of which was fatal) in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham"]Birmingham

, UK in 1978. A medical photographer, Janet Parker, contracted the disease at the University of Birmingham Medical School and died on September 11, 1978,[67] after which the scientist responsible for smallpox research at the university, Professor Henry Bedson, committed suicide.[2] In light of this accident, all known stocks of smallpox were destroyed or transferred to one of two WHO reference laboratories which had BSL-4 facilities; the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in the United States and the State Research Center of Virology and Biotechnology VECTOR in Koltsovo, Russia.[68] In 1986, the World Health Organization recommended destruction of the virus, and later set the date of destruction to be 30 December 1993. This was postponed to 30 June 1999.[69] In 2002 the policy of the WHO changed to be against its final destruction.[70] Destroying existing stocks would reduce the risk involved with ongoing smallpox research; the stocks are not needed to respond to a smallpox outbreak.[71] However, the stocks may be useful in developing new vaccines, antiviral drugs, and diagnostic tests.[72]
In March 2004 smallpox scabs were found tucked inside an envelope in a book on Civil War medicine in Santa Fe, New Mexico.[73] The envelope was labeled as containing scabs from a vaccination and gave scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention an opportunity to study the history of smallpox vaccination in the US.

Hmm. Everything still existing in several parts of the world (even developed nations with sanitation), still seeing deaths every year, except for smallpox, of which the last naturally occurring case was 33 years ago (and it's eradicated even in areas without good sanitation). And "truthseeker" claims it's all sanitation and not the vaccine?

Really, has he/she done ANY research at all? I can't think of ANY poster here who was less aptly named, as he is obviously not concerned with truth, and either unconcerned or inept at seeking.

 

[LarianLeQuella]

trusetheeker, I would like to see you attend the funeral of everyone that needlessly dies because they were not vaccinated. Seriously, you and your attitude makes me sick! It's a good thing that we are only reading your incredibly wrong words through the internet, because I would probably need to be restrained from taking physical action against you! And I have only thrown one punch in anger ever in my life (a guy hit his girlfriend at a party, and I threw him out).

Here is a small list of funerals you need to attend: http://vaccinecentral.wordpress.com/category/vaccine-preventable-suffering/

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Eos,

YELLING doesn't make your point any more valid. However, I think increasing the font-size does add weight!

Anyhow, I'm not ignoring you and will reply to your earlier post and this one when time allows.

Good night and dog bless!

Trusetheeker

Ignoring the facts only points to your lack willingness to have a serious discussion. Instead, you repeat conspiracies. Do tell me about why you ignore the the fact that people who get vaccinated have less miscarriages.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I want to take a closer look at this statement:

they were able to eradicate cholera, yellow fever, tuberculosis, typhus, typhoid, scarlet fever, diptheria, whooping cough, measles, and the bubonic plague long before vaccinations were developed or routinely used.

Cholera:

Yellow Fever

Tuberculosis

Typhus

Typhoid

Scarlet Fever

Diptheria
Whooping Cough
Measles
Bubonic Plague



Hmm. Everything still existing in several parts of the world (even developed nations with sanitation), still seeing deaths every year, except for smallpox, of which the last naturally occurring case was 33 years ago (and it's eradicated even in areas without good sanitation). And "truthseeker" claims it's all sanitation and not the vaccine?

Really, has he/she done ANY research at all?

OMG, I missed that complete nonsense about those diseases being eradicated. Where is this person coming from? Mars? Seriously!! WTF??? I'm starting to think someone was home schooled and kept from reality all their lives and now lives in a basement selling junk over the net with their head stuck in the ground! Sorry, but... COME ON! How can anyone say those disease are no longer???

 

[Andy_Ross]

Obviously they are using the wrong soap.

What does Mr Truthseeker think of the various other 'Alternative' sites and practitioners who claim that thier fave brand of 'alternative' is what is needed in place of vaccines and antibiotics etc?

Which one of them is right and wrong and why? it can't be all of them so why should we take his brand of Woo over theirs?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Obviously they are using the wrong soap.

What does Mr Truthseeker think of the various other 'Alternative' sites and practitioners who claim that thier fave brand of 'alternative' is what is needed in place of vaccines and antibiotics etc?

Which one of them is right and wrong and why? it can't be all of them so why should we take his brand of Woo over theirs?

That, and please address this person as their actual handle, as the Truthseeker I know that posts here is a completely different person who actually does research. Instead, we are addressing the misinformation compiled in this thread by trusetheeker. Two totally different people. Thank you

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I have to ask... is trusetheeker a homeopath???? Posts a bit like Kumar, if you know what I mean, just better Engrish.

 

[Chris Haynes]

....
According to Gary Krasner in The Dangers of Smallpox Vaccination:

measles, and the bubonic plague long before vaccinations were developed or routinely used.

...Trusetheeker

Trusetheeker, the following is a table of measles incidence in the USA from 1912 to the 1990s. There is a graph of that table here. I want you to tell me what happened between 1960 and 1970 to reduce that incidence by 90%, with real references.


From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
Year.... Rate per 100000 of measles
1912 . . . 310.0
1920 . . . 480.5
1925 . . . 194.3
1930 . . . 340.8
1935 . . . 584.6
1940 . . . 220.7
1945 . . . 110.2
1950 . . . 210.1
1955 . . . 337.9
1960 . . . 245.4
1965 . . . 135.1
1970 . . . . 23.2
1975 . . . . 11.3
1980 . . . . . 5.9
1985 . . . . . 1.2
1990 . . . . .11.2
1991 . . . . . .3.8
1992 . . . . . .0.9
1993 . . . . . .0.1
1994 . . . . . .0.4
1995 . . . . . .0.1
1996 . . . . . .0.2
1997 . . . . . . 0.1

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Trusetheeker, the following is a table of measles incidence in the USA from 1912 to the 1990s. There is a graph of that table here. I want you to tell me what happened between 1960 and 1970 to reduce that incidence by 90%, with real references.

Better soap!

 

[zooterkin]

I have to ask... is trusetheeker a homeopath???? Posts a bit like Kumar, if you know what I mean, just better Engrish.

The fact that he was quoting something that referred to conventional medicine as "allopathy" suggests he might be.

(I had my free flu vaccination today, supplied by the company I work for, this year including swine flu.)

 

[Uncayimmy]

I like posting these two charts I made so the anti-vax crowd can play, "Guess When the Vaccine Was Introduced."

 

[Rolfe]

(I had my free flu vaccination today, supplied by the company I work for, this year including swine flu.)

I had mine a couple of weeks ago, free on the NHS, simply because my elderly mother lives with me and they'd really prefer (a) I didn't bring anything home to her even though she's vaccinated too, and (b) I didn't get sick and leave them with an elderly lady to find care for.

Rolfe.