Merged H1N1 Flu Vaccine and "miscarriages"

[trusetheeker]

Originally Posted by trusetheeker
It's interesting that you should mention snake oil as the biggest snake oil scam ever is the vaccination industry by which pharma and the medical society both make huge profits.

My flu vaccine cost $30. Do you have evidence for this claim?

I thought that you'd never ask! According to Andrew Pollack in a nytimes.com article from 31 Jul 2009, Nasal Vaccine Holds Promise Against Swine Flu, the government paid $11 per dose for 12.5 million doses from MedImmune. Although they probably paid different prices for other supplies, this at least gives an idea of how much over the top you're paying for your dose.


Karl West reported in the Daily Mail on 7 Oct 2009:

Drugs giant GlaxoSmith-Kline is cashing in on demand for its swine flu vaccine, revealing it has won a further 22 government orders in the past two months.

This takes the total number of doses ordered for the H1N1 vaccine from the company to 440m, worth some £2.2bn. The pharmaceuticals group now has orders from 72 governments around the world, including Japan and China.

That works out to £5 ($US 8 at todays rate) per dose

Of course, some of these companies have been developing their H1N1 vaccine for 5 years and will have spent billions in the process. It would have been a crying shame if we didn't have a pandemic what with all that money invested !

This comes as no surprise to those of us who watched the pandemic unfold knowing that it was a scam from the offset. However, it's not an anomaly as the entire modern medical system is based on an illusion that these caring individuals actually understand the true nature of health.

Who is this "us" you speak of?
Evidence? Do you have any idea how epidemiologists go about their jobs?

There's a fairly long list of "us" going back more than a century including medical professionals and hundreds of like-minded laypeople. I'll mention a few but unfortunately cannot link just yet. I'll happily return with some links later in the thread.

Some professionals who are on the case!

Dr. Tim O'Shea
Dr. Russell Blaylock
Dr. Joseph Mercola

And no, I cannot say that I know how epidemiologists go about their jobs even though I do have an idea what they do. I'm not questioning their skill and dedication. I do know how homeopathist go about their jobs but that doesn't mean that I accept their findings or viewpoints without question.

If they did, would they try to heal the body by administering poisons that you wouldn't give to a healthy person?

Are you speaking of vaccines? They are not poisons. They do not heal the body. They are preventive in nature.

Do you know anything about the morbidity and mortality of any infectious diseases--especially viruses?

I was not referring to vaccines in my comment about poisons. I was referring to treatments such as chemotherapy.

And yes, I do know something about the morbidity and mortality of a number of "infectious" diseases - especially viruses. However, I don't subscribe to the germ theory of disease or the predatory virus theory. Even if I did, I wouldn't agree with the excessive campaign of vaccinations for every virus known to man or the one-size-fits-all mindset.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I don't subscribe to the germ theory of disease or the predatory virus theory

OK. So what do you 'subscribe to'?

What evidence have you for this 'subscription'?

 

[Capsid]

With respect, Mercola is not a credible authority. And if you don't subscribe to germ theory then you are in the wrong forum.

 

[trusetheeker]

I charge $20. I could charge $30 because that is what insurers will reimburse. But I have low overhead and mostly long term loyal customers, so I charge $20.

And I have had my vaccination, get one every year. I'll be giving my son his this weekend. He's 21 and I've personally given him a flu vaccine every year of his life.

Three years ago a previously healthy 20 yr old going to the same college as my son, living in the next dorm over contracted influenza and died. I can't tell you how sad I was that boy did not know to get a flu vaccination. It was a needless preventable death. A free vaccine in the case of this kid would have prevented his death. Flu vaccine is free from the student health service at the university my son attends. So very sad.

And in the case of this 20 yr old, he had excellent care at the hospital but there was nothing they were able to do for him. His lungs failed and there was nothing they could do.

I'm honestly quite happy that you and your son have had no ill effects from either influenza or the vaccine and I wish that it was true for everyone.

As for the sad case of the previously healthy 20 yr old who died, please answer honestly to yourself:
- did he actually have influenza?
- are you sure that he didn't actually have the vaccine?
- what treatment did he receive in hospital or prior to being hospitalised?
- did anybody attempt to reduce his fever or other symptoms via drugs of any sort?

Perhaps it was cut and dried just the way you described it but should any of these questions raise queries, I hope that it inspires you investigate the alternative paradigm of disease through your local Natural Hygiene practitioners.

Trusetheeker

 

[Emet]

I thought that you'd never ask! According to Andrew Pollack in a nytimes.com article from 31 Jul 2009, Nasal Vaccine Holds Promise Against Swine Flu, the government paid $11 per dose for 12.5 million doses from MedImmune. Although they probably paid different prices for other supplies, this at least gives an idea of how much over the top you're paying for your dose.


Karl West reported in the Daily Mail on 7 Oct 2009:


That works out to £5 ($US 8 at todays rate) per dose

Of course, some of these companies have been developing their H1N1 vaccine for 5 years and will have spent billions in the process. It would have been a crying shame if we didn't have a pandemic what with all that money invested !

1. I received my vaccine from a pharmacy. It was injectable. I'm sure they marked up the price over and beyond what they paid for the vaccine. My health insurance paid 80%, so I paid $6 (out of pocket).

2. All of your numbers do not tell us how much the mark-up on vaccines is.

3. Let's just take your numbers at face value for a minute.

Drugs giant GlaxoSmith-Kline...This takes the total number of doses ordered for the H1N1 vaccine from the company to 440m, worth some £2.2bn.

That would be the revenues the company took in, and you can go country by country if you like.

But the company took in £28.36 billion in 2009. source

Even if you double or triple their vaccine revenues, it represents 20-30%--certainly not small potatoes--but not likely their major source of revenues. And we don't know their cost per vaccine dose (their profit margin).

There's a fairly long list of "us" going back more than a century including medical professionals and hundreds of like-minded laypeople. I'll mention a few but unfortunately cannot link just yet. I'll happily return with some links later in the thread.

Some professionals who are on the case!

Dr. Tim O'Shea
Dr. Russell Blaylock
Dr. Joseph Mercola

And no, I cannot say that I know how epidemiologists go about their jobs even though I do have an idea what they do. I'm not questioning their skill and dedication. I do know how homeopathist go about their jobs but that doesn't mean that I accept their findings or viewpoints without question.

I'm not impressed by Mercola, Blaylock, or O'Shea.

Why are you?

I was not referring to vaccines in my comment about poisons. I was referring to treatments such as chemotherapy.

Let's stay on topic, shall we?

And yes, I do know something about the morbidity and mortality of a number of "infectious" diseases - especially viruses. However, I don't subscribe to the germ theory of disease or the predatory virus theory. Even if I did, I wouldn't agree with the excessive campaign of vaccinations for every virus known to man or the one-size-fits-all mindset.

Okay, then. The rest of the scientific community does. You keep taking your supplements and/or whatever else makes you feel better.

I only hope that if you have children, you don't let them die of a treatable bacterial infection. Or dog forbid, they get a treatable childhood cancer.

Have a nice day.

 

[Uncayimmy]

I hesitate to address the issue of money in big medicine, but the reality is that people will kill for a few dollars. Wives will kill husbands for $50,000 in insurance money. Drug dealers kill over money every day. There's more than an enough money in medicine to motivate a person to harm or kill people.

Fortunately, the number of people willing to harm or kill for money is extremely small. In the case of vaccines, with all the checks and balances in place, it would require a lot of people willing to do so, and any one of them could blow it wide open. I would guess that most are not in line to make a profit from their silence, so where's their motivation?

The profit motive is there for some. The means, not so much. Evidence should be abundant if it's really happening, so the motivation is actually rather meaningless. Either it happens or it doesn't.

Not to get sidetracked, but the real worry in medicines and alternative medicines, in my opinion, is a lack of effectiveness. I would say a lot more people would be willing to make a profit selling something that didn't work so long as people didn't get hurt. With evidence based medicine, that can be tricky to do. With alternative medicine, it's dirt simple. Finance a couple of poorly designed studies to demonstrate that something like turmeric might be effective for Alzheimer's (see another thread on this for further discussion), and next thing you know people are paying $1/gram for turmeric capsules when they can buy the stuff from the local Indian market for 3 cents per gram. Later, when more research shows it doesn't help, there won't be much press coverage. "Real" medicines, however, continue to be monitored, and competitors want that same market.

 

[Rolfe]

And in this neck of the woods, we get all our vaccines for free.

No doubt that's another conspiracy....

Rolfe.

 

[Estellea]

Nice one, Este! Although I'm giving you undue credit by replying to your post, I'm just embarrassingly curious about your comment "Oh wait, they did and the source is, of course, lying."

Would it be too much to ask you to explain this comment?

It wouldn't be too much to ask at all and I am ever so flattered that you deigned to acknowledge my humble comment. It's actually even worse than I thought. Your 'source' used VAERS (and erroneously referred to it as a 'CDC study') to extrapolate a miscarriage estimate for vaccinees but then claimed that the source (CDC) is lying. It's all rather circular logic. Now VAERS is a passive reporting system which means that a.) anyone can report to it, b.) there are duplicate, triplicate and even quadruplicate reports that can be found, c.) there are second and second party reports of essentially, "I heard that some person got teh herpes from one of doze vaccine thingys", d.) reports are raw and haven't been followed up for potential causation and e.) you can't use VAERS for an epidemiological estimate because there isn't a proper denominator.

Yet, here you are waving a completely uncited, over-wrought opinion piece put together by notorious anti-vaxxers with financial interests in such as evidence of H1N1 vaccines cause miscarriages.

While I'm here, let me just say that whether or not the miscarriages and maternal deaths were actually adverse affects of the flu vaccine, the point is that they are being dismissed out of hand. They're bloody quick to label any deaths as being caused by swine flu even without a lab test but teflon-coated and quick with the incident rates, etc if the death occurred post-vaccination.

As I'm still precluded from posting links, I can only point you in the direction of CBSnews_investigates story from 21 Oct 2009 (filename: main5404829.shtml) Swine Flu Cases Overestimated?

Of course, CBSnews would never dream that the alternative could be true, that you actually had already had swine flu and therefore had no need of the vaccine. Either that or they knew better than to make waves!

But then they went on to make a few waves!!!

Pandemic my derrier!

Trusetheeker

This is what we call 'shifting the goal-posts'. There is plenty to criticise the CDC about as far as handling reporting for this past flu season but invoking Sheryl Attkisson to do so is a failure. There are so many ways to legitimately critique the CDC, I suggest you go find them. You cannot make the ASSumption that an H1N1 vaccine is correlated with, let alone causal for miscarriages when you haven't even begun to properly assess the situation.

Este,

To add to my previous reply to you, I'm not demanding anything from anyone on this site.

I am, however, disappointed that several of you have already shown that you demand less from the authorities than you do from anyone with a contrary opinion. Does skepticism mean blind acceptance of mainstream belief?

Strawman. The contrary opinion is just that and completely unsubstantiated. It's not anyone's job here to provide you with evidence; you're making the assertions, you come up with some better sources.

I was quite happy with the description of the methodology used as described in the attached document as supplied on the Progressive Convergence website. Perhaps as a layman, I'm too easily impressed.

Yes, you are too easily impressed. I explained the extraordinary weakness with using VAERS as they did. Now where were there methods for ascertainment of other cases? "We had a poll in the interwebz" doesn't cut it.

Far from accepting poor quality information without question, this is an area that I've been studying for more than a year and to various degrees, I'm in very good company (name drop) such as Robert F Kennedy Jr. Is he crying wolf over vaccinations just for publicity and profit?

Trusetheeker

RFK Jr. in the same sentence as vaccines gets you laughed out of the room. I also see you invoked the trifecta of woo doctors for an appeal to false authority, and how could your 'argument' be complete without germ theory denialism. If you have been 'studying' the acceptance of poor quality information for over a year, I daresay, you have thoroughly wasted more than a year of your life if this is the best you can do.

Este

 

[trusetheeker]

My Flu shot is free. No doubt the Govt paid a company down the line somewhere to produce the vaccine but they obviously think the cost is outweighed by the benefits or it wouldn't be offered. In the UK Doctors can't offer drugs on the NHS that haven't been approved. News items pop up all the time about new treatments and how NICE won't give them the go ahaed for months or even years sometimes.

How is that a scam?

Captain_Swoop,

Of course we all know that your flu shot is not free. It's just been paid for out of the public purse which all of us in the UK contribute to in some capacity.

The theme of transferring public money into private hands has been quite prevalent this century after 2 decades (80s and 90s) of corporate raiders stripping major companies of all assets, especially pension funds, and then turning the workforce out onto the streets. But selling vaccination programs to governments has been around for centuries, including the notorious compulsory smallpox vaccination in the UK (and other countries) in the 19th century, where anyone refusing the vaccine would have to pay a fine or go to jail.

According to Gary Krasner in The Dangers of Smallpox Vaccination:

Before health agencies and schools of public health were completely taken over by allopathic medicine, in the service of their pharmaceutical cartel owners, the great legacy of the sanitary reformers -- Max von Penttenkofer, James T. Briggs, Dr. John Snow, Edwin Chadwick, Florence Nightingale, Dr. Southwood Smith, et al. was that they were able to eradicate cholera, yellow fever, tuberculosis, typhus, typhoid, scarlet fever, diptheria, whooping cough, measles, and the bubonic plague long before vaccinations were developed or routinely used.

Not only had poor sanitation and nutrition lain the foundation for disease, it was also compulsory smallpox vaccination campaigns in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that played a major role in decimating the populations of Japan (48,000 deaths), England and Wales (44,840 deaths, after 97 percent of the population had been vaccinated), Scotland, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Holland, Italy, India (3 million -- all vaccinated), Australia, Germany (124,000 deaths), Prussia (69,000 deaths -- all re-vaccinated), and the Philippines. The epidemics ended in cities where smallpox vaccinations were either discontinued or never begun, and also after sanitary reforms were instituted (most notably in Munich -- 1880, Leicester -- 1878, Barcelona -- 1804, Alicante -- 1827, India -- 1906, etc).

(Of course, this reference will be poo-poo'd because it's not on JREF's approved reference list and does not agree with the approved view of vaccinations. See, I'm learning already! )

The scam is getting people to believe that vaccinations are good for your health and not getting one will lead to your death or to those of your herd.

Trusetheeker

 

[Andy_Ross]

Smallpox was a deadly disease those it didn't kill it scarred, blinded and crippled. It was erradicated by vaccination.

from wiki

The overall case-fatality rate for ordinary-type smallpox is about 30%, but varies by pock distribution: ordinary type-confluent is fatal about 50–75% of the time, ordinary-type semi-confluent about 25–50% of the time, in cases where the rash is discrete the case-fatality rate is less than 10%. The overall fatality rate for children younger than 1 year of age is 40%–50%. Hemorrhagic and flat types have the highest fatality rates. The fatality rate for flat-type is 90% or greater and nearly 100% is observed in cases of hemorrhagic smallpox. The case-fatality rate for variola minor is 1% or less.[21] There is no evidence of chronic or recurrent infection with variola virus...
In Europe smallpox was a leading cause of death in the 18th century, killing an estimated 400,000 Europeans each year

You live life without the fear of death or crippling by Smallpox and Polio thanks to vaccination.

 

[Capsid]

Smallpox was a deadly disease those it didn't kill it scarred, blinded and crippled. It was erradicated by vaccination.

from wiki


You live life without the fear of death or crippling bySmallpox and Polio. and talk ignorant ****.

Truthseeker also does not know the history of smallpox vaccination. Variolation (smallpox taken from infected individuals) was used initially to try and immunise uninfected people, with the obvious result of infecting lots of people (which is what is reported in truthseeker's quote) hence there was reticence to accept Jenner's vaccination (cowpox) which does not give the vaccinee smallpox as it is a different virus. This was such a huge advance that variolation was banned in the UK in 1840.

 

[trusetheeker]

Exactly. Not only that, but what the FRACK does Tuskeegee have to do with vaccines???? So, some men with syphilis, who got it all on their OWN, didn't get a treatment they didn't even know existed. I would the think the alties would be happy they didn't get drugs. It shows perfectly what would have happened if they were treated with homeopathy or back cracking instead of DRUGS. That's what they advocate anyways. I'm sure they are quite happy these men weren't poisoned with nasty drugs or vaccines. So, some babies died because they weren't treated, but that is what happens when you don't vaccinate them too. Rejoice in the fact that that part of the community was drug free! Turned out great didn't it?

Nice attempt at going off topic by the OPer, but let's try to stick to vaccines in this thread!

Apologies for seeming to go off-topic but if you follow the thread, you'll see that I was replying to a valid question raised against my original post.

What's more, the reliability of government agencies, medical bodies and vaccine manufacturers is dead center of the discussion as I personally don't have the ability to peer-review their enormous base of supporting studies which are apparently the only valid vaccination references allowed in the JREF forum.

And on top of that, as you've brought it up, being drug free is not enough. An unhealthy body must be given the right environment to allow it to heal itself which medical doctors are not trained to do nor were these people given a chance to seek alternative help. But at least they weren't intentionally infected the way the Guatemalan's were:

Chris McGreal, 1 October 2010, US says sorry for 'outrageous and abhorrent' Guatemalan syphilis tests | World news | The Guardian

The US today apologised for "outrageous and abhorrent" experiments in Guatemala by American doctors who infected hundreds of prisoners, soldiers and mental patients with syphilis in the 1940s.

The experiments were intended to test the use of penicillin, then an early antibiotic. Medical researchers sought out prostitutes with syphilis to deliberately pass on the sexually transmitted disease to men through intercourse. Other men were injected. Conducted between 1946 and 1948, the experiments were led by John Cutler, a US health service physician who would later be part of the notorious Tuskegee syphilis study in Alabama in the 1960s.

People who could ignore the Hippocratic Oath long enough to treat humans like this are probably capable of doing anything. I'm not willing to trust that they've died off and only the good guys are left running the show.

Trusetheeker

 

[trusetheeker]

I have two words for you. Tu quoqe.

technoextreme,

You got me good there buddy. I'm not even smart enough to realise which bit you're tu quoqe-ing me on.

Trusetheeker

 

[trusetheeker]

Sorry the link didn't work. I make it a habit to check my links in the preview panel, and it worked--however, it is not working today. I'll repost it here:

www.pandemicfluonline.com/?p=1105

(I found it again by simply copying/pasting the title: "Under-lying-H1N1—US Bio-weaponry Program September 14th, 2009"--it showed back up as the second Google hit-- in case it doesn't work after some time)

I am quite familiar with Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment --it lasted way too long, and was criminal. I, for one, am glad the issue belatedly came to light, and Clinton made the public statement he did.

Do you know of anything remotely similar happening today?

I am not a member of the sheeple community. I am a scientist and a skeptic. But once again, you make blanket generalized statements that make you appear to be a conspiracy theory believer.


EMET,

EMET,

I wasn't accusing you of sheeple membership. It was a generic comment aimed at people like Dr Nancy Snyderman who famously said trust the government and "...just get your damn vaccine." (www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZNtMZI0jqE)

I'm not ashamed to admit that I do "believe" in quite a few conspiracy theories especially as my "belief" is a conclusion arrived at through the consideration of evidence at my disposal. Fortunately, I can admit this without fear that my career will be ruined.

And as far as current experiments similar to Tuskegee go, I'm not specifically aware of any going on but considering the history of government and military use of civilians and troops as guinea pigs, what assurance do we have that they've changed their spots?

(A couple of references: RW ONLINE:Germs, Gas and Bugs: Made in USA
and
US says sorry for 'outrageous and abhorrent' Guatemalan syphilis tests | World news | The Guardian)

(Apologies to all if this is off-topic but Emet asked the question!)


Trusetheeker

PS: The workaround didn't work but hopefully I've racked up enough posts to get this through.

 

[trusetheeker]

That's a load of BS. The flu BUGS gO around every year. Who cares what strain the flu is caused by???

You advocate more deaths and miscarriages because you want to nitpick strains. Nice. THE FLU CAUSES MISCARRIAGES. FAR LESS VACCINATED PEOPLE HAVE MISCARRIAGES THAN THE GENERAL PUBLIC OVERALL.

Eos,

YELLING doesn't make your point any more valid. However, I think increasing the font-size does add weight!

Anyhow, I'm not ignoring you and will reply to your earlier post and this one when time allows.

Good night and dog bless!

Trusetheeker

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Hey scout, who makes the vaccines Americans use?

I'll give you three guesses, and "big pharma" doesn't count. I want names of companies and/or countries.

 

[Reality Check]

According to Gary Krasner in The Dangers of Smallpox Vaccination:
...
(Of course, this reference will be poo-poo'd because it's not on JREF's approved reference list and does not agree with the approved view of vaccinations. See, I'm learning already! )

Trusetheeker: That reference will be poo-pooed because it is a lot of poo ! A link to a naturopathic web site and an article by Gary Krasner who looks like

Gary Krasner grew up in the Bronx in the 50's through the 70's. He moved to Queens in 1975 after obtaining a B.S. degree in Psychology from CCNY. Today, Mr. Krasner works as a computer graphics artist by day. By night he runs Coalition For Informed Choice, a non-partisan organization that promotes personal freedom of choice in decisions involving our health.

The paranoiac language used alone ('pharmaceutical cartel owners") is evidence that that author has their own agenda.
The mistakes are obvious, e.g. none of the diseases in his list of eradicated diseases has been eradicated.

What public health reforms did was lessen the incidence of and control the spread of polio, smallpox, cholera, yellow fever, tuberculosis, typhus, typhoid, scarlet fever, diptheria, whooping cough, measles and the bubonic plague.
The introducion of vaccination for these diseases has always resulted in a dramatic improvement in their control.

This citation makes it seem as if you are quite gullible and just parroting the anti-vax propaganda that we see quite often.
You are going to have so show that you have some ability to think for yourself after a citation blunder like that, trusetheeker.

A hint for you trusetheeker:


This is the science section of a skeptics forum. Thus we expect people to produce actual evidence to support their assertions in the threads that they start. Linking to a web page containing the opinion of a computer graphics artist will not be adequate. You need to cite

• The scientific literature or
• Publications that cite the scientific literature.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Woo like this is inexcusable and should be challenged wherever it is seen.

It's not like the bilking and conning the gullible over some useless food supplement.

This crap will kill, mail and cripple people.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
While I'm here, let me just say that whether or not the miscarriages and maternal deaths were actually adverse affects of the flu vaccine, the point is that they are being dismissed out of hand. They're bloody quick to label any deaths as being caused by swine flu even without a lab test but teflon-coated and quick with the incident rates, etc if the death occurred post-vaccination.

If you took the time to find out how deaths were determined to be flu deaths or not, and how side effects were determined to be associated with or caused by flu, or not, you would find your accusations here are unscientific and false.

Deaths for which no culture was done (because it is not always necessary to identify every organism involved in a respiratory infection death) are looked at in 2 ways to determine where to place them in the scheme of cause of death.

Some data is collected only as, 'death due to influenza like illness, (ILI), and pneumonia'. Since the fact the person died of overwhelming pneumonia (lung infection) is known when a death occurs, the issue you are complaining about is estimating which organisms were involved in these deaths.

To make that determination, the organisms responsible are sampled, so the totals can be estimated. It's just like taking a political poll of a representative sample. Also, the amount of flu in the community is compared to the rate of death due to ILI and pneumonia. These numbers are not made up. They are not guessed. And most importantly of all, drug companies don't have jack to do with public health surveillance of disease mortality rates.

The second way a death can be attributed to uncultured influenza is when a case with flu symptoms is traced to a patient who was cultured. If everyone in the family has a high fever and a respiratory infection, you only need to culture one of them to know the rest have the same thing.


When it comes to determining which side effects are attributable to a vaccine, again, IT IS PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE FDA WHICH INVESTIGATES THIS MATTER, NOT THE DRUG COMPANIES. All of us who give vaccines are required by law to report adverse effects that come to our attention. And patients definitely bring problems to the attention of their providers.

But you have to recognize, if 100 million doses of vaccine are given in a 2 month time period, many of those people were going to get sick, or have miscarriages during that time. So you absolutely have to subtract the background rate of any side effect you are looking at to determine what amount of the problem is the background rate, and what amount increased during the time you gave the vaccine.

Sometimes we compare vaccine to placebo. Sometimes we compare vaccinated people to unvaccinated people. And sometimes we look at established background rates of whatever symptom we want to know if the vaccine might have caused.

Public health and the FDA have an interest in the actual data. They don't have an interest in promoting vaccines for profit. But even if you didn't believe that, all the data is available for people who do not have a financial interest in the vaccine to see. And the US is not the only country which collects and analyzes the same data. Countries which pay for vaccines from tax dollars have an interest in analyzing the data. Unless you think everyone in those governments is also in on the conspiracy, then the data analysis will determine the actual side effects from the vaccines.

...As I'm still precluded from posting links, I can only point you in the direction of CBSnews_investigates story from 21 Oct 2009 (filename: main5404829.shtml) Swine Flu Cases Overestimated?



Of course, CBSnews would never dream that the alternative could be true, that you actually had already had swine flu and therefore had no need of the vaccine. Either that or they knew better than to make waves!

But then they went on to make a few waves!!!




Pandemic my derrier!

Trusetheeker

If you care for the truth as your forum name implies, you will also look into the facts about the public health's handling of the H1N1 pandemic we just went through.

First, are you faulting the public health for responding to the threat because it wasn't as bad as it could have been?

Are you taking some news report which profits fron selling a commodity, and because of that they slant their reporting to either fear (the news exaggerated the threat, not the public health), or , scandal. It is profitable for news peddlers to exaggerate a threat, then claim scandal that public health over reacted.

In reality, and I am in private practice, not public health, the public health did a darn good job responding to this threat. The one place their preplanning fell through was in some of the mechanics of vaccine distribution. Hopefully they will learn from the problems that surfaced. And that's pretty good considering all the planning was only on paper until now.


As for was this virus a real threat? Absolutely. While there were not a lot of fatalities in the elderly, the group which normally accounts for 90% of flu deaths, there was an increase in fatalities among the young, among pregnant women, among diabetics and among the obese. That may not add up to numbers the news peddlers could make a fear product out of, it was a real threat with this pandemic.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Delphinium,

Just 2 points:

1) As I've just mentioned in my reply to Este, CDC stopped the H1N1 testing and just counted everyone with similar symptoms as having Swine Flu and then were caught out lying by independent data supplied directly from each state. Independent citizens doing their best to raise a valid concern is one thing, but the national authority playing loose with figures and therefore lives is a completely different game.

2) Statistical significance is of little consolation when you've lost wife/daughter/mother and/or their unborn child within days of vaccination. Neither is knowing that the organisations that are pressuring you to receive the vaccine are above question and extremely good buddies with the manufacturers who're making profits out of your sorrow.

Are you still laughing or just quietly embarrassed?

You have no idea what you are talking about here.

Public health testing became overwhelmed. They did not have the laboratory capacity to culture every specimen collected. They had to shift to testing the more seriously ill where testing would make a difference in decisions physicians made to save their patients.


The news reporters and some bloggers were very ignorantly reporting things like the estimates were fabricated and only confirmed cases were real as if every case was being cultured. I've already explained above how epidemiologists deal with sampling data to predict totals.