Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[el buscador]

Thanks, halides1! That video is very interesting. In the first car I caught a glimpse of Patrick's dreadlocks on the backseat. If there are AK and RS in the following cars I cannot see.

Notable for me is the telephoto view of the cottage terrace in the middle of the clip. Some guilters argued that it is a natural path of a break-in because it is hidden from view. But the video proves how exposed it is in reality, compared to Filomena's window.

Hi Katody, great observation about the terrace. Did you also notice the fact the Meredith listed Amanda as a friend on her facebook page and the fact of the police officer entering Meredith's room without protective gear? This is an outstanding video for what it tells us about the beginnings of this case and what was going on.

 

[LondonJohn]

Hypothetically, if a person committed a murder and was known to the police they may not want to put anymore suspicion on themselves by avoiding calls from the police. As for getting stoned, Sollecito may have thought it would help him feel less nervous.

As for Guede, I thought he left on 4th November, which was a Sunday of a holiday weekend in Perugia (Fair of the Dead?), when most of the tourist would have been leaving and less suspicious.

I believe that the evidence points towards Guede leaving Perugia on the 3rd. He was stopped and questioned in Munich on the 4th.

 

[billyryan]

thanks RWVBWL hi halides1
That story and a hundred more like it,that Amanda and Raffaele have to tell after being acquitted have powerful interests in perugia desperatly seeking an excuse any excuse to let this conviction stand
The thought of Amanda on american tv surrounded by family and friends telling the world in her own words what happened,might just convince a judge that it is possible for raffaele to be at Amanda's house holding meridith for Amanda to stab her and be on his computer half a mile away at the same time

 

[odeed]

Asking for evidence will get you nowhere if you are not also willing to search for that evidence yourself. There are publications of this event. What is the earliest publication that mentions a parade with sirens? You might need to search the Italian media since most of the early stories hit the Italian tabloids before getting on the European news wire.

The parade however is just one small piece of the bigger issue of the police generating negative news about the suspects before the trial. I find the parade not inconceivable given all the other antics of the Italian authorities.

Sorry but I am not the one making the claim, so I do not have to look for evidence.

This may be difficult for you to comprehend, since you are adverse to discussing the facts

I'm starting this thread to explore the possibility of Rudy Hermann Guede being the sole perpetrator in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

For this thread, any discussion of Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito being at the scene when the murder occurred is strictly off topic. ...

It has been about 5 pages or about 180 posts since I originally asked for evidence, and one of the criticisms leveled at "guilters" is that they supposedly don't want to discuss the facts. This is a skeptics forum and the statement was originally months ago so I would of expected a faster response.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Hi Katody, great observation about the terrace. Did you also notice the fact the Meredith listed Amanda as a friend on her facebook page and the fact of the police officer entering Meredith's room without protective gear? This is an outstanding video for what it tells us about the beginnings of this case and what was going on.

Great findings!
The picture that appears for me is of a terrible screw-up. ILE were so longing for a success that they got completely misled by the phone logs.
I believe they targeted the two because of it, and then everything looked suspicious for them and confirmation bias kicked in very early. Lumumba's phone pinging in the vicinity of the cottage, his changing of SIM cards, Amanda's confession and finally the superficial similarity of Raffaele's shoes to the prints they retrieved sealed the deal for them - they were genuinely sure about the "case closed".

 

[Chris C]

Great findings!
The picture that appears for me is of a terrible screw-up. ILE were so longing for a success that they got completely misled by the phone logs.
I believe they targeted the two because of it, and then everything looked suspicious for them and confirmation bias kicked in very early. Lumumba's phone pinging in the vicinity of the cottage, his changing of SIM cards, Amanda's confession and finally the superficial similarity of Raffaele's shoes to the prints they retrieved sealed the deal for them - they were genuinely sure about the "case closed".

Dont forget this picture of the person on the balcony taking a break, while someone is standing in civilian clothes inside the house.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/TheBraClasp.html

 

[christianahannah]

Yeah but he was still convicted as part of a 3 person murder. So his conviction is flawed if Knox/Sollecito get their conviction overturned. From what I understand and Machi could probably give better insight on the subject, Italy has a lot of technical issues that give defendants new trials.

Rudy has a December 16 (I believe that date is correct) court date before the Supreme Court. I think this is the last attempt at having his conviction overturned. If the conviction remains I do not know if he would be granted a new trial if the conviction of Raffaele and Amanda is overturned.

I am not familiar with Raffaele's appeal in its entirety. Is the information from Rudy's cell mate (the child murderer) included in the appeal?

 

[odeed]

I believe that the evidence points towards Guede leaving Perugia on the 3rd. He was stopped and questioned in Munich on the 4th.

Thanks was not sure but 4th November was something that came into my head.

Kermit,

Here is a video that shows three cars with their lights and horns on. Based on the presence of photographers and the time of day, this can hardly be of Patrick’s arrest. I suggest someone look into Elio Bertoldi’s reporting on this incident for more details.

Your argument ignores the Perugian who said that the police had only acted this way once before in memory. Another native Italian told me that the police acted like children that day. But more fundamentally you ignore the prejudicial nature of this publicity, of the police statements statements that day, and of the false statements later on (which I recently discussed).

And what is more, you have derailed the discussion. A number of us have asked for things like a coherent explanation of how Guede’s traces could be found in the room but not Knox’s or Sollecito’s and received no answer. Kevin_Lowe’s comment that he has not received an answer to his question is spot on. I suggest we move the discussion back to these more fruitful topics.

A three second video clip of three cars leaving the station from the looks of it, where you cannot say for certain who was in the car, or what time of day it was. I don't know what you mean by photographers exactly, but a lot of them would have been freelance who would have been all day and all night if need be to try and get a photo.

The Perugian quote from an article where police were going to the police station after arresting Lumumba, but somehow got twisted into the three being paraded around Perugia.

I did not derail any discussion as I was responding to the often repeated "the three were driven around Perugia.." (paraphrase) statement you have been making for months without any evidence.

 

[Chris C]

Rudy has a December 16 (I believe that date is correct) court date before the Supreme Court. I think this is the last attempt at having his conviction overturned. If the conviction remains I do not know if he would be granted a new trial if the conviction of Raffaele and Amanda is overturned.

I am not familiar with Raffaele's appeal in its entirety. Is the information from Rudy's cell mate (the child murderer) included in the appeal?

Its never over when it comes to appeals in Italy. Its not like the US. Italy is pretty fair when it comes to allowing people to appeal convictions.

 

[LondonJohn]

Thanks was not sure but 4th November was something that came into my head.



A three second video clip of three cars leaving the station from the looks of it, where you cannot say for certain who was in the car, or what time of day it was. I don't know what you mean by photographers exactly, but a lot of them would have been freelance who would have been all day and all night if need be to try and get a photo.

The Perugian quote from an article where police were going to the police station after arresting Lumumba, but somehow got twisted into the three being paraded around Perugia.

I did not derail any discussion as I was responding to the often repeated "the three were driven around Perugia.." (paraphrase) statement you have been making for months without any evidence.

In regard to this whole convoy procession thing, I will readily concede that there's conflicting evidence as to what actually happened. Dempsey is explicit in her account that the procession took place after the "perp walk" of the three suspects, but many of the other media reports describe the convoy arriving at the police HQ instead. If it's important to some people as to whether all three were actually inside the cars of the convoy as it drove round Perugia with sirens blaring, I'm more than happy to concede that this particular point is far from proven. But I (personally) never regarded their physical presence in the convoy as of particular importance. Of more importance to me was the fact that the Perugia police apparently paraded triumphantly through the town that day, in a display which locals are quoted as saying was extremely unusual and ostentatious.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Odeed,
Thanks for the answer to my posting,
Now, I am in no way trying "to bait" you, as someone -(mortytoad?) on PMF recently accused me of doing by asking Kermit for his opinion on what he thought had happened downstairs -(for it seems kind of odd, when you look at the whole picture, especially if Giacomo's key was never recovered),
so with that in mind, allow me to further continue.

Hypothetically, if a person committed a murder and was known to the police they may not want to put anymore suspicion on themselves by avoiding calls from the police. As for getting stoned, Sollecito may have thought it would help him feel less nervous.

I will have to disagree with your posting here.
Being a guy who has actually been high on THC and had to speak with the police before, in my view, Raffaele, while being stoned would possibly be under a bit of paranoia dealing with the police. Especially if he was involved in this bloody murder. Who wouldn't?

So using Caller ID when the call from the police came in at 10:00pm, 1 wonders why he didn't just let it go to voicemail, and simply return the call in the morning?

Haven't you ever NOT wanted to speak with someone and just let it go to voicemail, and then returned the call later, at your convenience? I have.
Heck, on my old landline, I didn't even use an answer machine, and with Caller ID, I could avoid having to deal with some unpleasantness until I decided that I wanted too, if at all...

The fact that Raffaele Sollecito,
who looks A LOT more like "Harry Potter" than any "Biff" I have met,
-(and I do have a bro we nicknamed Biff, who while surfing, does "Biff turns"!),
DID answer that 10:00pm phone call from the police that night and, while stoned, went back to the questura for further questioning, -(without a lawyer),
shows to me that he had nothing to fear of the police, for he simply was not involved in this bloody murder.

As for Guede, I thought he left on 4th November, which was a Sunday of a holiday weekend in Perugia (Fair of the Dead?), when most of the tourist would have been leaving and less suspicious.

Rudy Guede, the other male convicted in this murder has said that when he closes his eyes, he sees RED....
Let's have a look at what Rudy Guede did after he tried to "save" Meredith Kercher the night she was brutally stabbed and bled to her death..
After he grabs towels to seemingly staunch her bleeding and "save her", does he call for help? NO
Does he run to any neighboring house or apartment and ask for help or to use the phone to call for help? NO.
What did he do?
He cleaned himself up and went out dancing...

What did Rudy Guede do the next night, on the 2nd.
According to "Murder in Italy",
He went out, once agin, to the Domus nightclub.
When the DJ asked for a moment of silence in honor of Meredith, Rudy Guede kept on dancin', dancing alone...

What did Rudy Guede do next?

Now here I have come to a stumbling block.
In "Murder in Italy", authored by Candace Dempsey, it says on page 103 that on Nov. 3, 2007, Rudy Guede split town.

In "Angel Face", authoried by Barbie Nadeau,
it says on page 60 that Rudy Guede remained in Perugia, nervously milling around the city center, wracked with guilt and paranoia.
-(hey, there's that word paranoia again. I wonder, wasn't Raffaele "wracked by guilt and paranoia" too?)
On page 61, it says that on the night of Nov. 3, 2007, Rudy Guede went out with his friends. They drank, got high, and danced.
The morning of Nov. 4, 2007, Rudy Guede left.

Barbie Nadeau seemingly skips what Rudy Guede on the night of the 2nd, or I just can not find what she wrote that he did.
So which author got it right? I wonder?
Does anyone have any input?
Thanks,
RWVBWL

 

[Dan O.]

Sorry but I am not the one making the claim, so I do not have to look for evidence.

Tell me again why I need to comply with calls for evidence from someone that I perceive issn't likely to make a contribution to understanding the truth of what happened in this case?

 

[Kermit]

Keep digging yourselves deeper

What if they do a totally unnecessary diversion away from the road leading from the Police HQ (on the edge of town) to the out-of-town prison, up into the narrow, winding, hilly streets of the old town?

This is how LondonJohn got us into the circuitous route discussion.

Here is a video that shows three cars with their lights and horns on. Based on the presence of photographers and the time of day, this can hardly be of Patrick’s arrest. I suggest someone look into Elio Bertoldi’s reporting on this incident for more details. Your argument ignores the Perugian who said that the police had only acted this way once before in memory....
And what is more, you have derailed the discussion .... I suggest we move the discussion back to these more fruitful topics.

This is how Halides tries to come to the rescue, after LondonJohn, Withnail, Kaosium and Dan O. all fail to find any reference for the parading of Amanda through the winding streets of Perugia (instead of driving her straight out to Capanne).

Yet, Halides, all this video shows is two police vehicles, turning out of Questura (Via Cortonese) towards the highway access which will take them to Capanne Prison. I see no winding streets of old Perugia here. We're not even sure who is in the police vehicles. Your favourite convict, Amanda, certainly isn't visible through the vehicle movement and glare and reflection on the windows (if she's there).

I haven't derailed the discussion. I have simply tried to debunk yet another false accusation coming from the FOAKer side of this discussion.

Keep looking for videos or proper references. That will keep you busy.

Hello Halides1, .... The 2nd thing I learned is that it was true. After being arrested, and with the cameras rollin', Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were indeed driven thru town with lights ablaze and sirens blazin'.
Now which author was it that wrote of this?
Candace Dempsey?

Wrong. Read above.

It's interesting that certain people are zeroing in on trying to challenge the finer details of the triumphalist display by the Perugia police on 6th November 2007. The word "circuitous" seems to be getting a very heavy airing in particular .... This video only serves to add to the corpus of evidence in this regard.

That's cheeky of you!!!! See the very initial re-quote of this post. Who wrote it (hint: YOU!!!)

 

[LondonJohn]

This is how LondonJohn got us into the circuitous route discussion.

This is how Halides tries to come to the rescue, after LondonJohn, Withnail, Kaosium and Dan O. all fail to find any reference for the parading of Amanda through the winding streets of Perugia (instead of driving her straight out to Capanne).

Yet, Halides, all this video shows is two police vehicles, turning out of Questura (Piaggia Ferro di Cavallo) towards the highway access which will take them to Capanne Prison. I see no winding streets of old Perugia here. We're not even sure who is in the police vehicles. Your favourite convict, Amanda, certainly isn't visible through the vehicle movement and glare and reflection on the windows (if she's there).

I haven't derailed the discussion. I have simply tried to debunk yet another false accusation coming from the FOAKer side of this discussion.

Keep looking for videos or proper references. That will keep you busy.

Wrong. Read above.

That's cheeky of you!!!! See the very initial re-quote of this post. Who wrote it (hint: YOU!!!)

Look. If it makes you feel better to go on about all this, then go right ahead. I've already happily agreed that Dempsey's exact version of events is not readily supported by other media accounts, but that the truth is still somewhat vague to say the least. And I've pointed out that what seems to be pretty well supported is that the Perugia police acted in an inappropriate display that day, whether or not all three suspects were actually in the vehicles at the time.

But congratulations on your "victory". It certainly seems disproportionately important to you, for reasons I'm finding hard to figure out.......

 

[Machiavelli]

Look. If it makes you feel better to go on about all this, then go right ahead. I've already happily agreed that Dempsey's exact version of events is not readily supported by other media accounts, but that the truth is still somewhat vague to say the least. And I've pointed out that what seems to be pretty well supported is that the Perugia police acted in an inappropriate display that day, whether or not all three suspects were actually in the vehicles at the time.

But congratulations on your "victory". It certainly seems disproportionately important to you, for reasons I'm finding hard to figure out.......

So now you can take note about one proven point in Candace Dempsey's narrative: she reports a false fact, unsupported and not found in any source. It is evident her only source of inspiration for this piece of description was Frank Sfarzo's blog, who, commenting number of police cars and frenzy police activity, compared the arrest of Amanda Knox with the arrest of Giovanni Brusca (an obviously subjective association in Frank's style). The "parade" on a circuitous track is nothing more than an "integration" of the half info/comment by Frank, by the typical Candace style of reporting.

It is nothing more than an example of Candace Dempsey as a source, and the reasonings of those who take her as their source.

Something to say about the video posted by Halides. There has been a lot of talking on this forum and reporting about the press conference of De Felice, about his alleged "early" incriminating scenario and the unprofessional, casual attitude shown bu the police who were allegedly making unsupported claims. I still don't understand what was your precise logical thread on this, however this video is an example of a report where all this is absent. It doesn't seem anything different than any other press professional conference and there is very little talking more than expected. The Italian voice of De Felice is heared as he answers a question by a journalist, the journlist asks if they think there was a sexual motive by all three. De Felice says "Otherwise we wouldn't have a concorso in sexual violence. That's what I can tell you".

 

[Mary_H]

Hi Katody, great observation about the terrace. Did you also notice the fact the Meredith listed Amanda as a friend on her facebook page and the fact of the police officer entering Meredith's room without protective gear? This is an outstanding video for what it tells us about the beginnings of this case and what was going on.

Sometimes you can tell what people feel defensive about by how much unnecessary talking they do about something. On pages 101-110 of the motivations, in the section titled Investigative Activity, we are assured fifteen times in ten pages that investigators wore "shoe covers and gloves" or "gloves and shoe covers." But read between the lines of this excerpt:

On the afternoon of November 2, 2007 personnel of the Perugia Police headquarters went to said house. The 118 and Coroner Dr. Lalli also came; a few hours later, the Forensics staff from Rome arrived.
......
Monica Napoleoni, Deputy Commissioner of the State Police, arrived at the Via della Pergola house around 13:30 pm, and colleagues of the postal police gave information about the discovery of the body of a girl. Arriving almost at the same time as the staff from 118, there was a female doctor and a nurse......[Napoleoni] approached Meredith’s room with the chief assistant Buratti, who remained at the door as Napoleoni took one step inside the room "while the 118 doctor uncovered the corpse" (page 228, hearing [96] on February 27, 2009).

She was wearing shoe covers and sterile gloves. "I then saw this girl who was on the floor with her face lying towards the right of the viewer, with a terrible wound. Was semi-naked, had the t-shirt rolled up above the breast and lots of blood and spatters of blood even on the breast‛ (page 229).

Everyone who entered had gloves and shoe covers on except the 118 personnel who certified the death. Soon afterwards, Dr. Chiacchiera and colleagues from the Scientific Police arrived.

It sounds like a lot of precautions were taken, but what it really says is that a minimum of two people entered the room, and only one of them had shoe covers on (Napoleoni).

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Only that I respectfully note your skillful moving of goalposts and parsing by you changing your original post from "facts" to the much more convenient, but obviously totally different "facts as we now know them"

I'll be charitable and chalk this up to the language barrier - in the English idiom "the facts" are the best known version of the facts. If you are referring to incorrect claims which were thought to be factual at one time, you would have to refer to them as "the facts as they were known at the time" or something of the sort.

"The facts as we now know them" is what "the facts" means, so there is no goalpost-shifting, skilful or otherwise.

I think you should also consider that "Has there ever been a coherent theory of the crime that had Amanda and Raffaele murdering Meredith which fit the facts as they were known at the time" would be a very strange question to ask. I think whether or not they are guilty is far more important than whether it might have been justified to think them guilty at some arbitrary point in the past.

Again, respectfully, but ever so obviously, the Motivations Report was not blessed with your self aggrandized, self annointed TOD conclusions as 'facts as we now know them'..

The Appeals Court will soon be the 'authoritative' resolution of the above, assuming of course that your arguments will now allow this 'appeal to authority'.

I really do not understand why you keep trying this.

Arguments from authority are fallacious. If a court makes a decision which is at odds with logic or science the court is simply wrong, as courts have been all too often in the past.

Although in a skeptics gathering, seeking information from others, use of 'ignore' seems rather counterproductive, inane, and childish, I am gratified that see here that you did not carry out that threatened disposition you directed to yours truly in your last argument.

Technically I'm manually clicking on the "view post" button to selectively unignore posts of yours which, based on their position in the thread, might be a reply to my earlier challenge. However it's a distinction without a major difference since I am indeed reading your posts currently.

I think it's fair to give you a second chance just for looking like you might have been attempting to respond in good faith. If it turns out this was a misleading impression I can just go back to not viewing your posts.

However it does mean that if you don't come up with an actual response to the challenge to present a coherent narrative of the crime which covers the facts as we now know them, I don't have to click twice to ignore you again.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

BTW I'm not that good in language subtleties , but is Nadeau bashing the prosecution?

parts of prosecution's case are preposterous

certain elements of the prosecution’s case are absurd

Judge Giancarlo Massei demonstrated in his 427-page reasoning that he and his jury took certain liberties and made a number of assumptions

But in the appeal, there will be no room for such conjecture

etc.

Reporters are gathering in Perugia ahead of the appeal, hanging out together, drinking, and talking. The consensus of opinion has changed significantly since the verdict. PMF actually deserves a large measure of credit for this, because they made the Massei report accessible to reporters who don't know the Italian language. Steve Moore, Girlanda, and others have had an impact as well.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Still no response to the call for a coherent prosecution narrative? Look, I'll sweeten the pot.

I'll give you a general amnesty on "I told you so" responses with regard to any point you've previously argued. I don't care if last week you argued until you were blue in the face that Curatolo was not perjuring himself, Quintavalle was not an opportunist getting in on a good thing, Nara had magical ears and Massei was the love child of Hercule Poirot and Solomon. I won't even bring them up. Just give us a coherent narrative.

Of course I can't guarantee you won't be excommunicated at other sites if you do so, but I don't have much direct control over what they do elsewhere. If this is an issue for you then possibly you should have a quiet word with the powers that be about them issuing some kind of Vatican 2 redefinition of the official doctrine so that we can have an intelligent conversation about the case.

 

[TomCH]

I believe that the evidence points towards Guede leaving Perugia on the 3rd. He was stopped and questioned in Munich on the 4th.

Yes, so probably he left Perugia in the morning on the 4th, and arrived in Munich in the evening.

It's an 11 hour trip, door to door.

I doubt he took the overnight train due to cost.