Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

They certainly seemed to 'paw' the item but as I'm not a forensics specialist I cant say if it's bad practice.
As for contamination of the actual clasp, that argument doesn't fly - its been covered at length in this thread.
Its either planted or genuine. Randi wont pay if I predict your choice

The Lab not the prosecution claimed no contamination - if it hasn't happened or hasn't been discovered then that's that.

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They definitely didn't plant it, didn't you watch the video?

You would have lost your bet, it could actually be Raffaele's DNA that somehow got there legitimately.

It just couldn't have happened at the murder site when the murder was occurring, otherwise there would have been other traces of Raffaele there.

 

[platonov]

I agree. It is also quite strange that Amanda didn't take out the washing which contained also her own cloths, and instead she was concerned to carry a mop with bucket to dry a (almost dry yet) floor in another house. In fact, on the same point, it is something that allows to think that maybe Meredith was not the one who put the washing in.

Now call me crazy, but I think this post addresses a more salient issue than those focusing on washing machine cycles.
There may even be other more basic arguments about the washing which don't require a degree from the Hotpoint University to grapple with.

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[Kestrel]

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I had a Fuji digital camera, and now I think it's a Pentax. In neither are the photos automatically erased.

Kestrel, what's your camera and image software?

I use iPhoto on a Mac. After each import, it puts up a dialog box asking if I want to delete or keep the photos in the camera. The software is able to do this with almost all digital cameras.

The only case where I don't clear the camera is when I import photos to another persons computer and plan to put the same photos on my computer later.

Do you buy a new memory card whenever the one in the camera gets full?

 

[platonov]

They definitely didn't plant it, didn't you watch the video?

You would have lost your bet, it could actually be Raffaele's DNA that somehow got there legitimately.

It just couldn't have happened at the murder site when the murder was occurring, otherwise there would have been other traces of Raffaele there.

I did previously watch the video, but I fear, based on this, that if you read my post I obviously didn't get my point across with sufficient clarity.

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[platonov]

Isn't it even stranger than a man could look at that murder scene posted by Draca on the last page and come to the conclusion it could only have been done by multiple attackers in some sort of sexual rite? Then refuse to re-evaluate his thinking when physical evidence of only one other attacker is found, and the 'murder knife' seized from two scared kids is exposed as not fitting most of the wounds?

What do your psychological insights reveal about that sort of person?

Here's a psychological insight into both myself and Draca.
Draca began his post by quoting Steve Moore as an authority - I skipped over the rest of his post.
That tells you something about both of us - to my credit I hope.

On reading your synopsis above I see my skepticism was vindicated.

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[Kaosium]

I did previously watch the video, but I fear, based on this, that if you read my post I obviously didn't get my point across with sufficient clarity.

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No you didn't, unless it was "it's been discussed before."

In which case I'd agree, it probably has. However even if you participated in that discussion it would be nice to know what insights you've gained since. I know I often consider things differently given more time to reflect upon them.

Even if that's not the case, if you're still reading and posting to this thread there must be something that still interests you about this issue. So what would you like to talk about that hasn't already been discussed?


(good luck with this!)

 

[platonov]

No you didn't, unless it was "it's been discussed before."

In which case I'd agree, it probably has. However even if you participated in that discussion it would be nice to know what insights you've gained since. I know I often consider things differently given more time to reflect upon them.

Even if that's not the case, if you're still reading and posting to this thread there must be something that still interests you about this issue. So what would you like to talk about that hasn't already been discussed?

(good luck with this!)

There is something that interests me about this issue [see my posts in the last 36 hours for a more than frank explication] but one doesn't discuss protocols etc with the subjects

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[Kaosium]

Here's a psychological insight into both myself and Draca.
Draca began his post by quoting Steve Moore as an authority - I skipped over the rest of his post.
That tells you something about both of us - to my credit I hope.

On reading your synopsis above I see my skepticism was vindicated.

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Let us then hear your objections about Steve Moore being an authority then.

When I first joined this forum someone sent me a link to a site that listed Steve Moore's 'errors.' I read through it and soon realized it was all semantics and pedantry, the lowest form of argument. The sort of thing that can be done by anyone to anyone else without ever engaging the actual point. I found it breathtaking that someone could think some clown with a website could think they were 'discrediting' twenty-five years of FBI experience with trivial crap like not knowing the intimate details of the Massei report fantasy of how the murder 'occurred.'

Whenever I see a smear campaign I always look to the ones doing the smear and try to figure out why. It's not usually a very good reason...

 

[platonov]

They definitely didn't plant it, didn't you watch the video?

You would have lost your bet, it could actually be Raffaele's DNA that somehow got there legitimately.
It just couldn't have happened at the murder site when the murder was occurring, otherwise there would have been other traces of Raffaele there.

Hold on, earlier I was addressing the last part of your post.

Does this mean we are back to '2 girls, 1 bra' or do new wonders await.

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[Ampulla of Vater]

I use iPhoto on a Mac. After each import, it puts up a dialog box asking if I want to delete or keep the photos in the camera. The software is able to do this with almost all digital cameras.

The only case where I don't clear the camera is when I import photos to another persons computer and plan to put the same photos on my computer later.

Do you buy a new memory card whenever the one in the camera gets full?

The reason I regularly delete my photos after upload (besides the memory card becoming full) is because the next time I upload I would be re-uploading all the photos I already placed on my computer and sorted through. It is a waste of time to continue to upload the same photos over and over or have to weed through them to check off only the "new" ones each upload.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Well, we know that Knox sent a couple of texts to Meredith on Halloween night asking if Meredith wanted to meet up. That doesn't tend to support any sort of argument that Knox hated Meredith - quite the contrary in fact. And has everyone forgotten that Amanda and Meredith also went together to the classical concert on 26th October at which Knox first met Sollecito?

Yes, Amanda texted Meredith several times I believe, but Maredith didn't text her back that we know of, we do know for sure that they didn't meet up and we know Meredith friends didn't like Amanda so it is not 'quite the contrary in fact' as you've stated above.

 

[Kaosium]

There is something that interests me about this issue [see my posts in the last 36 hours for a more than frank explication] but one doesn't discuss protocols etc with the subjects

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I think I know exactly what you mean. It was my second interest after consuming all of these threads, PMF's archives and other sites and then realizing in the course of my attempt to 'prove' guilt how pathetic the case really is and how suspect all the 'evidence' is and where it actually leads.

I think I have some ideas from the other 'side' about what you're probably interested in now, some benign, some not so benign and some kind of sad. You, on the other hand, I can't quite figure out.

Which is, of course, probably the way you like it.

 

[Machiavelli]

Isn't it even stranger than a man could look at that murder scene posted by Draca on the last page and come to the conclusion it could only have been done by multiple attackers in some sort of sexual rite? Then refuse to re-evaluate his thinking when physical evidence of only one other attacker is found, and the 'murder knife' seized from two scared kids is exposed as not fitting most of the wounds?

What do your psychological insights reveal about that sort of person?

I don't have so much psychological insight. I herard Mignini talking many times and my idea is of a person who loves literature. My perception is of man with somewhat a sweet temper, and cautious. I think his ideas to make sense of situation are related to his very literary background. His descriptive idea oa sex game was maybe derived in its features from eruopean novels and highbrow manga, but probably a little too sophisiticate for attributing it to 20yo students.
But Mignini's personal taste is of no interest to me.

What is important to be said, is that the murder scene is not a posted photo, and it is something not consistent with a lone perpetrator.
Let alone the "scared kids" and be correct on the wounds: the wounds are three, and the knife fits two. The only problem with this knife is there is Meredith's DNA on it, and it's not normal for it to be there.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

They definitely didn't plant it, didn't you watch the video?

You would have lost your bet, it could actually be Raffaele's DNA that somehow got there legitimately.

It just couldn't have happened at the murder site when the murder was occurring, otherwise there would have been other traces of Raffaele there.

Well then, how about after, during the clean-up and staging when he was actually cutting off the bra and staging the body to look like a rape?

 

[platonov]

Let us then hear your objections about Steve Moore being an authority then.
When I first joined this forum someone sent me a link to a site that listed Steve Moore's 'errors.' I read through it and soon realized it was all semantics and pedantry, the lowest form of argument. The sort of thing that can be done by anyone to anyone else without ever engaging the actual point. I found it breathtaking that someone could think some clown with a website could think they were 'discrediting' twenty-five years of FBI experience with trivial crap like not knowing the intimate details of the Massei report fantasy of how the murder 'occurred.'

Whenever I see a smear campaign I always look to the ones doing the smear and try to figure out why. It's not usually a very good reason...

This is a good example of the divide on this issue [and in a much more important field but thats OT]

Not all of us hold the opinions of 'an ex-FBI man on TV' in such high regard.

Some of us subject politicians, clerics, analysts, wanabees, and the cuties on the shopping channel to scrutiny before accepting their claims.
You want respect for 'position' - find a Christian and wow him with a guy in a funny hat or a fake tan.
As for me - I don't buy, I shovel.

Moore - He is either a vulture on the make or a clown - I suspect the former.
Either way !!

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[Kaosium]

Hold on, earlier I was addressing the last part of your post.

Does this mean we are back to '2 girls, 1 bra' or do new wonders await.

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Who knows? It has nothing to do with the murder, tracking it down is like trying to figure out where the elephant DNA came from in a lecture a professor once gave me about an experiment done on a person's body and clothes. They never did quite figure it out, though a decent argument was made it was transferred from a zoo employee on the bus. Low odds, but since the subject wasn't an elephant and hadn't been near one in years it had to come from somewhere.

Same thing with that bra clasp DNA. It got there somehow, the only thing that can be eliminated is that it happened during the murder.

 

[Kaosium]

Well then, how about after, during the clean-up and staging when he was actually cutting off the bra and staging the body to look like a rape?

That's the one place it couldn't come from. Otherwise there would be other evidence of him in that room, and if they had to go to the embarrassing extreme of the bra clasp you know if there was anything in that room of his they would have found it.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

This is a good example of the divide on this issue [and in a much more important field but thats OT]

Not all of us hold the opinions of 'an ex-FBI man on TV' in such high regard.

Some of us subject politicians, clerics, analysts, wanabees, and the cuties on the shopping channel to scrutiny before accepting their claims.
You want respect for position - find a Christian and wow him with a guy in a funny hat or a fake tan.
As for me - I don't buy, I shovel.

Moore - He is either a vulture on the make or a clown - I suspect the former.
Either way !!

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You know, the same could be said about Mignini.

 

[Mary_H]

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Kevin, Mary:

I think that most readers here realise that you're a formible dialectical tag team.

And within that framework of rigorous, science-first approach that you apply, I'd like to look at the issue of Mignini being a "fat-faced wino pervert".

Science is all about observation, let me see if a grasshopper like me can reach your heights:

"fat-faced" - well, okay, there is an abundant set of terminology for one's physical appearance as regards weight, and I will admit that Mignini is not anorexic. I'll concede this description, although the nuance isn't necessarily flattering.

"wino" - do you have any data to back up this one? Even Douglas Preston recognises Mignini as being a Christian family man (although that doesn't necessarily mean that one doesn't drink too much). I haven't seen any text or visual references to Mignini being a drinking man.

(on the other hand, for the sake of fairness, there are photos of both generations of the Mellas family enjoying alcohol. And Amanda's step-father's MySpace page had a small collection of photos of apparently enebriated persons vomiting, before it was set to private)

"pervert" - again, I see no references to perversions on Mignini's part. If you look at his case history, he has prosecuted tax-evaders, horse traders, extorsioners, etc. with no perverse element in his activity, as far as I can see. Of course, you will probably bring up The Monster of Florence killings, however, those belong to a different jurisdiction and he never prosecuted there (MoF investigator Giuttari knew of occultist Carlizzi years before the reactivation of the Narducci case, and it was Giuttari's investigative data that was handed to Mignini re. Narducci). If you read Mario Spezi's book rather than Preston's, you'll see that the "satanic" theory associated with MoF predates the peripheral involvement of Mignini through the Narducci case by many years, and that it's Giuttari and others who developed that theory)

So, going back to your triple slammer description of Mignini, maybe you should only leave him with a rounded face.

Kermit, I read your post to my husband and we both had a hearty laugh. He even said you don't sound like someone who would be hard to get along with. (!)

I usually don't make remarks about people's personal appearances, but I made an exception in Mignini's case because he's indethpicable, as Daffy Duck would say.

How do I know Mignini's a wino? Because he has a fat face! No, just kidding -- even I know that's circular reasoning. And the reason I think he's a wino is because he's Italian! Pure, unadulterated prejudice on my part. Obviously, I jest.

The pervert part is easy to support, though -- Kaosium has said it best in a number of posts today using the word "pornographic" to describe Mignini's depiction of the scene of the crime. The guilters always seem to overlook the fact that the proposed scenario sprang from Mignini's imagination on the 5th or 6th of November without ONE IOTA of evidence to suggest it. Why do you guys not find that weird?

And why do you not find it weird that you feel the need to defend Mignini, who would sue me for slander if he could find me? He's not exactly helpless, guys.

My feeling is that it's perfectly okay to make fun of tyrants, or even just people in power. It's the ones who are on trial that we have to be 100% accurate about.

 

[Kestrel]

The reason I regularly delete my photos after upload (besides the memory card becoming full) is because the next time I upload I would be re-uploading all the photos I already placed on my computer and sorted through. It is a waste of time to continue to upload the same photos over and over or have to weed through them to check off only the "new" ones each upload.

Yes, that is another good reason to delete camera photos after uploading.

The implication that it was somehow abnormal and suspicious for Amanda to have deleted her photos is simply bogus.