Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

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For your information, I learned of Amanda's vibrator through her lawyer.

I obtained my copy of Amanda's list of lovers and contraceptive methods used or not used through Seattle King County Judge Michael Heavey.

We learned of the video of Meredith's body being moved through Raffaele's home town TV station.

It was Amanda who insisted on writing spontaneous declarations around the time of her arrest.

I read Amanda's email home (the "WTF" one) to a zillion people and her university handling officer in Seattle, on PerugiaShock.

Amanda and Raffaele were the ones who decided to clam up (in Raffaele's case, he had asked for a special audience to make a declaration, but in the meantime, Rudy was located and arrested and on the given day, Raffaele went to so Mignini with his lawyer and simply didn't say anything) and not help the investigation

It was Amanda's friend from Seattle who posted her drunk video.

It was Amanda who got fined for hosting a noisy party where stones were thrown at cars. (I got my copy of the summons/fine from The Cook, I believe (maybe wrong)).
==============================

Exactly, and all of this came out because Mignini saw a crime scene of a break-in turned tragedy and decided it had to be a wild sex game or whatever fit his fancy at the moment. None of that was necessary, there's no proof whatsoever that either Amanda or Raffaele ever had anything to do with any sex game. However that's what he told the tabloids, and as a result the lifestyle Meredith was living was broadcast worldwide. I kinda think the family didn't really need that news along with their daughter's death.

As for the "theory", what theory? Are you still referring to the satanic theory or the "ritualistic orgy" theory or some other pet peeve of FOAKers which was never introduced into the trial?

Look into why it wasn't introduced...that wasn't Mignini's doing. It also has nothing to do with the tabloid campaign, which was far more embarrassing for everyone involved than what happened at the trial.

 

[el buscador]

Sorry if I confused you with Antony. We have only the facts and that is that Meredith never told anyone Raffaele was her friend. She met him only three times (briefly) over the course of one week.

friend: a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard;

aquantiance: a person known to one, but usually not a close friend.

Which term applies more?

Look, neither you nor I have any evidence about how Meredith actually felt about Raffaele. You can give me all the "choose one" lists that you want but that doesn't change the actual fact. None of us will ever know Meredith's feelings about Raffaele.

 

[RWVBWL]

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<snip>
Well, you're right. Potentially Rudy could have dumped the phones. I personally don't feel that was the case, but it could be. His apartment is about the same distance as Raffaele's apartment (in fact a few metres closer) to the garden where they were thrown.

And the reason the phones were stolen and thrown is quite likely what we're all saying.
<snip>

Hi there Kermit,
Being as Meredith Kercher's cell phones, -(well, 1 was hers and 1 was Filomena's),
were found on grounds of a residence along a road named Via Andrea da Perugia,
why couldn't they just have been tossed there from a car leaving the scene of the murder?
Such as what could have happened IF it really was Luciano Aviella's bother who murdered Meredith Kercher.
Hmmm?
RWVBWL

 

[Alt+F4]

Could that evidence be on Amanda's computer?

So you want us to believe that all the evidence of this friendship is on Amanda's computer. There are no:

1. Emails sent to anyone by Amanda mentioning their friendship.
2. Emails sent to anyone by Meredith metioning their friendship.
3. Photos posted anywhere on the Internet by either Amanda, Meredith, Filomena or Laura regarding this friendship.

 

[Alt+F4]

Friendly acts don't count if there is not written documentation?

In a murder trial, no. Was there a witness at the trial that testified that they were at the chocolate festival together?

 

[TomCH]

There is both a border and railway station in Monaco.
I was there in June this year.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/monaco/how-to-reach/railway.html

That is not a normal railway line, you need to take a local line between Ventemiglia and Nice

Eurocity trains do NOT stop in MC.

And there are no border controls between MC and France.

In any case, he ended up in Germany, not France.

Anyway, does anyone now think he was referring to MC rather than Munich?

 

[Alt+F4]

Hi there Kermit,
Being as Meredith Kercher's cell phones, -(well, 1 was hers and 1 was Filomena's),
were found on grounds of a residence along a road named Via Andrea da Perugia,
why couldn't they just have been tossed there from a car leaving the scene of the murder?
Such as what could have happened IF it really was Luciano Aviella's bother who murdered Meredith Kercher.
Hmmm?
RWVBWL

It is my understanding that they Luciano Aviella story was thought to be fiction everyone (both those for guilt and innocence). Is this story being used by the defense now in the appeal?

 

[Alt+F4]

Look, neither you nor I have any evidence about how Meredith actually felt about Raffaele. You can give me all the "choose one" lists that you want but that doesn't change the actual fact. None of us will ever know Meredith's feelings about Raffaele.

Well then Amanda could have hated Meredith on the night of November 1. None of us will ever know Amanda's (and Raffaele's) feelings about Meredith, right?

 

[RWVBWL]

Sorry if I confused you with Antony. We have only the facts and that is that Meredith never told anyone Raffaele was her friend. She met him only three times (briefly) over the course of one week.

friend: a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard;

aquantiance: a person known to one, but usually not a close friend.

Which term applies more?

Hi Alt+F4,
Well, I would think Meredith would consider Raffaele Sollecito as a little bit more than a newly met, casual aquaintance, for he was the person whom her housemate was dating and he did come into the apartment and hang out, even cooking there, IIRC...

Rudy Guede, well I don't know.
The court seemed to make a big deal of his "friendship" with Amanda Knox.
Myself, I would call him a casual aquaintance, for if I recall correctly, he had only smoked out 1 time with both Meredith and Amanda while downstairs in the company of the guys who lived there. I believe that was the time Rudy got too stoned and passed out on the toilet, being awoken in the morning with his pants around his ankles...

I do not think I have ever read that Rudy Guede was even inside of the gals upstairs apartment,
so I wonder, would you, Alt-F4 consider him to be a "friend" of Amanda Knox because he smoked out with her, while in the company of others, 1 time?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Toshiba

"According to some"....well that's kind of vague, don't you think?

I never said anything about what might have been on Amanda's computer. Are you saying the only evidence of their friendship was on that hard drive? Really? How about one, just one, email or photo sent home, to friends or posted on MySpace, Facebook or anywhere else on the Internet showing evidence that they were friends.

Ok, I'll even go old school here, how about a letter?

There is zero evidence of a friendship (nevermind a close friendship) between Amanda and Meredith.

The photographs on Amanda's computer have been discussed here many times. I suggest you read a message of mine called "toasted toshiba and a Halloween hello," which was in response to something you wrote. I note that you have not answered my question with respect to supporting release of this drive. Here is a bit from Anne Bremmer's web site.

"Only after these hard drives were thoroughly messed up did the authorities send them to a company that specializes in data recovery and has people who know what they are doing. This company was able to recover the contents of two of the hard drives, but the one from Amanda's computer was scrambled, and the company couldn't recover the data.

That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.

At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen. The only remaining option is to send the drive to Toshiba, the manufacturer. This would cost many thousands of dollars, but Amanda's family is willing to shoulder the cost. Unfortunately, the Italian court has denied their request to do this.

So as of now, the hard drive is in police custody, in a partly dismantled condition, and very likely holding evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox. "

In response to a question of yours several days ago, the subject of forensic bias has also come up many times here with a number of citations. The advanced search function should pick them up just fine. I also note the lack of citations in most of your comments. How about a deal? Start giving citations as frequently as you ask for them.

 

[Antony]

Any evidence that they were "close friends"? How about a few photos of them hanging out together, having fun? Photos that Amanda and/or Meredith sent to friends/family back home? Are there any photos or posts on MySpace or Facebook (or any other website) regarding this "close friendship" by Amanda, Meredith or anyone that knew them? Of course not because they don't exist. The reason why I know they don't exist is because if they did Amanda's supporters would have produced them already.

Why would they not exist? Anything to do with Amanda and Meredith's laptops both being destroyed by Perugia police "investigators", perhaps? That is exactly where we would expect to find the photographs.

Amanda also reported "she borrowed some of my condoms" in the e-mail where she describes how the police quizzed her about Meredith's sex life. I see no reason to doubt her on this, and it isn't something that happens between people unless they are on pretty good terms.

Now you have resorted to just making stuff up. Meredith and Raffaele were not friends. Please stop with the lies.

I find your tone objectionable. Where is your evidence that they were not friends, as much as the partner of one of your friends would be by nature?

The words of my posting were: "meanwhile they have engaged in a disgusting and vindictive persecution of two of her friends, and sentenced them to far longer jail terms on fraudulent grounds." In the context, I think I am quite entitled to use the word in the general sense, in that both of them were part of Meredith's circle.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

contamination versus evidence-tampering

Not sure what you mean by doing it on TV. If you mean the video taken at the crime scene then again I'm going to ask, why, if they were going to contaminate the crime scene they would:

1. videotape it.
2. allow that video to be released (please don't go with the defense had a right to disclosure, doesn't work in your conspiracy theory).

Alt+F4,

There is a difference between contamination and evidence-tampering. Once you understand it, all will be clear to you.

 

[el buscador]

Well then Amanda could have hated Meredith on the night of November 1. None of us will ever know Amanda's (and Raffaele's) feelings about Meredith, right?

Any thing is possible where feelings are concerned. So, maybe we should stick to the actual evidence and leave off with the touchy/feely stuff that can only be guessed at.

And you didn't reply to the second part of my post so I'll repeat it here: How do you feel about that Alt+F4? Do you think the hard drive should be sent to the manufacturers to see if the data could be recovered. It would end some of the arguments and speculation of one side or the other. We on the innocent side are all for looking at every little piece of evidence and having it all tested by independents come what may. How about the guilty side?

 

[RWVBWL]

It is my understanding that they Luciano Aviella story was thought to be fiction everyone (both those for guilt and innocence). Is this story being used by the defense now in the appeal?

Hi Alt-F4,
Sorrry, that I do not know...
But it sure seems like there could be some truth to the theory!
What do you think Alt-F4, how did the murder go down?
As the court decided, or did it happen some other way?
Some think that the murderer was left-handed.
Some say this, some that.
What do you say, Alt-F4?

I'm heading to the beach, so I will check in tommorrow to see whatcha wrote!
Have a great rest of the day,
RWVBWL

 

[Kestrel]

In a murder trial, no. Was there a witness at the trial that testified that they were at the chocolate festival together?

Yes.

 

[Kermit]

Hi there Kermit,
Being as Meredith Kercher's cell phones, -(well, 1 was hers and 1 was Filomena's),
were found on grounds of a residence along a road named Via Andrea da Perugia,
why couldn't they just have been tossed there from a car leaving the scene of the murder?
Such as what could have happened IF it really was Luciano Aviella's bother who murdered Meredith Kercher.
Hmmm?
RWVBWL

Hi RWVBWL, maybe I haven't had my evening coffee yet, but I don't get where you're coming from.

Is the street name in italics for any particular reason?

As to whether the phones could have been tossed from a car, sure. I did a powerpoint a long time ago suggesting that that was a possibility.

As to whether the Luciano Aviella story might have any more credibility by considering the possibility of tossing the phones from a car, I don't think so. As you can imagine, I'm not too close to the FOA organisation, but I would think that they see the main usefulness of Luciano Aviella in trying to demonstrate that the Prosecution didn't identify this line of investigation (ie. getting an easy kick on the Prosecution). I'm sure that FOA doesn't expect much salvation or credibility from Aviella.

 

[Alt+F4]

Why would they not exist? Anything to do with Amanda and Meredith's laptops both being destroyed by Perugia police "investigators", perhaps? That is exactly where we would expect to find the photographs.

Thanks for proving again that there are zero emails, letters, Internet postings, Facebook or MySpace postings showing that they were friends. Neither woman sent any photos home to their family or friends before their computers were seized.

Amanda also reported "she borrowed some of my condoms" in the e-mail where she describes how the police quizzed her about Meredith's sex life. I see no reason to doubt her on this, and it isn't something that happens between people unless they are on pretty good terms.

People in their 20s asking for a condom in 2007 in no way shows friendship. Teens in many high schools get free condoms, does this prove that they are close friends with the teacher that gives them out?

I find your tone objectionable. Where is your evidence that they were not friends, as much as the partner of one of your friends would be by nature?

Again, there is no evidence that they were friends. Produce something that would indicated friendship. Even Amanda's writings after the murder don't indicate friendship.

The words of my posting were: "meanwhile they have engaged in a disgusting and vindictive persecution of two of her friends, and sentenced them to far longer jail terms on fraudulent grounds." In the context, I think I am quite entitled to use the word in the general sense, in that both of them were part of Meredith's circle.

AK and RS were not sentenced to longer prison sentences than RG based on fraudulent grounds. This has been covered many times on this thread and even Amanda's (honest) supporters know it's not true as well.

 

[katy_did]

Sure, but that's still "days", and not "hours" (let alone minutes).

In any case, it seems that it takes 11 hours to get from Perugia to Munich, depending if you want to get there quicker, or with less changes (12 if you go through Rome)

I'm not sure anyone was saying he fled the country mere minutes after the crime, but it seems he did leave quite soon after, the day following the discovery of the murder. If he was going to flee at all (and from the testimony of people who knew him, it seems that was his natural reaction when in trouble) any extra time he could buy for himself would be a good thing. So Rudy taking the phones to delay the discovery of the murder makes sense in that context, at least as much as it does for Amanda and Raffaele. Even if it wasn't quite as thought out as that (very possible), simply wanting to hide what he'd done for as long as possible could account for him taking them, or just to give him some time to think about what to do next. Both reasons would apply equally to Amanda and Raffaele - I don't think it points towards any of the suspects in particular.

From Rudy's own account of the train journey, it sounds as if it was circuitous to say the least, so probably would have taken him quite a bit longer than 11 hours. But in any case, at least we're in general agreement about the date itself.

 

[Kermit]

Here is a bit from Anne Bremmer's web site.

"That is unfortunate for Amanda, because her defense team wants access to the evidence on her computer. The prosecution is trying to argue that Amanda did not get along with Meredith Kercher, but photographs and videos on Amanda's hard drive would show otherwise.

At this point, it looks as if those photos will never been seen."

.
On the initial Haloscan threads, in a more conciliatory mood, I believe (maybe my memory fails) that Chris Mellas more or less admitted that not much of anything significant would be found on Amanda's computer.

 

[Antony]

1. According to both Amanda and Raffaele, Meredith and Raffaele met three times only.

Thanks for this information. That's 3 times more than the number of times Raff met Rudy Guede, and a more solid basis than the prosecution's claims for Amanda's acquaintance with him, yet we are supposed to believe that the 3 of them murdered carried out the murder together.