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Forgiven for what, eactly?

AvalonXQ said:
Hence the Deus ex Machina -- Jesus. He's the escape route from the path of sin and death. He can do what we can't -- fix our mess.
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Our mess? We didn't create the world. We didn't decide that our punishment for merely existing should be an eternity in Hell. We didn't demand a sacrifice as the solution.

If God created the world, then its flaws are on his shoulders, not on those of his creatures. If he decided we should all go to hell, that was his decision. If he came up with the bizarre escape route of becoming human so he could be sacrificed to himself, that's his issue.

And if he chose to communicate all of this through a terribly imperfect book that he knew -- with his omniscience -- would be widely open to misinterpretation, then what sense does it make to punish us for not believing it?
 
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There's two interrelated issues here. One is with the responsibility for our actions. You still haven't given any possible way that god isn't responsible for everything we do since they are the direct result of his creation of the universe and he knew and controlled the exact conditions required for these events to take place.

The other is with the fairness of the judging us for that. Let me try it this way: I'm declaring a new religion. The truth has been revealed unto me. The big core truth is that humans must be tortured forever for god's amusement unless while still on Earth they are able to create peanut butter and jelly sandwiches using only lead and the power of thought. Since nobody can do this, I have made a loophole - you can also avoid the endless torture if you say "I believe in the divinity of sanwiches" and MEAN IT.

Is that fair?

EDIT: I was going to fix the typo above, but then I realized that as the leader of a religion that wouldn't be right. So, yeah, you have to say you believe in the divinity of SANWICHES. Whatever those are. It's a mystery of faith, and will be explained when you die.
 
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AvalonXQ said:
We are punished only for the knowing wrongs we commit, not for anything else. We're not punished for failing to believe in Christ -- any more than going to jail for a crime you committed is punishment for ignoring a plea bargain.
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Hold it right there. Are you a heretic, Avalon? Do you not believe in original sin? Much of the structure of Christianity is erected on the very denial of your assertion here, that we will indeed be punished for a sin with which we are burdened at birth, unless we accept the Christian redemption. In other words, we are explicitly punished for a sin of which we have no awareness except for the tendentious testimony of those who would enfold us in their religion, and which that very testimony admits was actively committed millennia before we were born; and insofar as acceptance of Christ is, according to most Christian doctrine, the only way to atone for this inherited sin, then it's sophistry at best to suggest that we are not punished for failing to believe in Christ.

If you consider the amount of punishment, as well as whether it occurs at all, then it's actually pretty routine to be punished for ignoring a plea bargain. I have read that it's rather common for a defendant pleading not guilty to get a longer sentence than one who pleads guilty. You can say, of course, that the punishment is for the crime alone, but in reality some of it is for the pleading.
 
bruto said:
Hold it right there. Are you a heretic, Avalon? Do you not believe in original sin?
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I have explicitly said, more than once on this thread, that I do not believe in original sin. The Bible does not teach that we are burdened with sin at birth; the Bible teaches that we are burdened with sin the first time we individually make a choice that is sinful.
 
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AvalonXQ said:
I have explicitly said, more than once on this thread, that I do not believe in original sin. The Bible does not teach that we are burdened with sin at birth; the Bible teaches that we are burdened with sin the first time we individually make a choice that is sinful.
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Do you believe that there is any possibility that any human being can make it through an average life span without sin? (Jesus doesn't count since he was really God in disguise.)
 
iknownothing said:
Do you believe that there is any possibility that any human being can make it through an average life span without sin?
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I do, yes.

(Jesus doesn't count since he was really God in disguise.)
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Actually, He does count. His success was remarkable, but it was to demonstrate what the rest of us could do.
 
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How could that possibly be true?

He had abilities the rest of us do not. (Taking the Christian faith at face value.) Not only that, but he knew he had those abilities, he knew the whole plan, he was omniscient. So he had way more encouragement, way more incentive to follow the rules (which are his own rules he made up anyway!). It's not even like he was really undergoing the human experience, since he knew all along that he was God.

I don't see how anyone can claim that since Jesus was sinless, any normal human could be.
 
AvalonXQ said:
I have explicitly said, more than once on this thread, that I do not believe in original sin. The Bible does not teach that we are burdened with sin at birth; the Bible teaches that we are burdened with sin the first time we individually make a choice that is sinful.
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Yet god never made clear what is sinful nor what the correct way out is.
You claim it is in the bible and through jesus, but there are a number of major and untold minor religions all of whom claim that is not true. And all claim that unless you avoid their particular version of sin, god will punish you.
Since according to you god tells us what is sinful through religion, we'd have to come to the conclusion that living is sinful.
God literally designed the world in such a way that it is impossible not to sin and virtually impossible to know the right way out.
I know you claim to have additional evidence that your particular version of christiantiy is right, but as an outsider they are all equally valid.
Since god could have made this clearer but chose not to, nor choses to give this information to everyone, clearly he wants the majority of humanity to be punished.

I don't mean to ridicule you, but that is how I see your god through your reasoning. Yet to you this is somehow comforting and even loving behaviour.
Why?
 
iknownothing said:
How could that possibly be true?
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The Bible says it is, and I don't see anything inherently contradictory in it.

He had abilities the rest of us do not. (Taking the Christian faith at face value.)
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... from a purely "magical powers" point of view, His aren't out of line with those of Elijah and the other prophets of God. Heck, Joshua performed a more impossible physical feat than Jesus ever did (stopping rotation of the Earth).

Not only that, but he knew he had those abilities, he knew the whole plan, he was omniscient.
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Jesus was not omniscient. Exactly how much of the plan He knew, and when, is a matter of some debate.
 
Matt the Poet said:
See this – here – a perfect example. A restatement of what you believe, but no addressing the original question of why you believe it. Why is this question so hard for you to answer directly?
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He's very good at avoiding questions and restating what we've heard a hundred times before.
 
AvalonXQ said:
The Bible says it is, and I don't see anything inherently contradictory in it.


... from a purely "magical powers" point of view, His aren't out of line with those of Elijah and the other prophets of God. Heck, Joshua performed a more impossible physical feat than Jesus ever did (stopping rotation of the Earth).



Jesus was not omniscient. Exactly how much of the plan He knew, and when, is a matter of some debate.
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This may be news to you,but Joshua (if he ever existed) did not stop the earth rotating.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Jesus was not omniscient. Exactly how much of the plan He knew, and when, is a matter of some debate.
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Can you deny that Jesus, at the very least, got a huge head start over the rest of us? It's absurd to me to claim that because Jesus could be sinless, anyone could.
 
iknownothing said:
Can you deny that Jesus, at the very least, got a huge head start over the rest of us? It's absurd to me to claim that because Jesus could be sinless, anyone could.
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I believe it because of what is said in Hebrews 4, along with the many Gospel passages that talk about how difficult it was for Him -- the weeping, the praying, the close temptations, and especially the begging His Father to change His mind and cancel the Crucifixion. That, to me, underlines the actions of a Mortal shouldering a huge burden, rather than an impassive omnipotent God.
 
AvalonXQ said:
We are punished only for the knowing wrongs we commit, not for anything else. We're not punished for failing to believe in Christ -- any more than going to jail for a crime you committed is punishment for ignoring a plea bargain.
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If we're not punished for failing to believe, how is it that asking God for forgiveness has any power or meaning whatsoever? I cannot seek out his forgiveness if I don't believe in him, but apparently he created us specifically to choose to be forgiven or not. What is the point of sin and forgiveness if we're not all supposed to be acting upon these foundations with free will?

Is it just a matter of remorse? Is remorse a subconscious act of desire for forgiveness? While my mother's version of Christianity did not require belief in God (only good deeds and intentions) the rest of my family would argue that without acknowledgment of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, a person is submitted to torture for all eternity (except for that one time in Revelations where Jesus gives all those in the Lake of Fire one last chance before the beast and his ilk are obliterated).

Where I live, the great majority of Christians would say faith is more important than your deeds. I was specifically taught this. I was hit over the head with it for years in fact. Faith is what's important. I could never accept that when I believed in this sort of thing. I had to tell myself that deeds were more important. So did my my mother and every intelligent Christian I interacted with. For so many Christians disagreeing, it seems tragic that this message was not clear for all to see.
 
Halfcentaur said:
If we're not punished for failing to believe, how is it that asking God for forgiveness has any power or meaning whatsoever? I cannot seek out his forgiveness if I don't believe in him, but apparently he created us specifically to choose to be forgiven or not. What is the point of sin and forgiveness if we're not all supposed to be acting upon these foundations with free will?

Is it just a matter of remorse? Is remorse a subconscious act of desire for forgiveness? While my mother's version of Christianity did not require belief in God (only good deeds and intentions) the rest of my family would argue that without acknowledgment of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, a person is submitted to torture for all eternity (except for that one time in Revelations where Jesus gives all those in the Lake of Fire one last chance before the beast and his ilk are obliterated).

Where I live, the great majority of Christians would say faith is more important than your deeds. I was specifically taught this. I was hit over the head with it for years in fact. Faith is what's important. I could never accept that when I believed in this sort of thing. I had to tell myself that deeds were more important. So did my my mother and every intelligent Christian I interacted with. For so many Christians disagreeing, it seems tragic that this message was not clear for all to see.
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Faith isn't just bare belief; true faith includes acting on that faith, which means deeds.
But neither faith in Christ nor good deeds can save a human being. Only the grace of God, in the sacrifice of His Son, can save us. So the faith/deeds dichotomy (in addition to being a false dichotomy in the first place) is entirely beside the point.
Our actions condemn us. God's actions save us. Chrisitianity doesn't save us through our free will; Christianity saves us through our acceptance of Christ's actions.
 
AvalonXQ said:
That, to me, underlines the actions of a Mortal shouldering a huge burden, rather than an impassive omnipotent God.
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Yes, a burden, but not one equivalent to what a non-divine human would bear.

Put it this way: Running a marathon is difficult and takes a lot of dedication and effort. But, someone with legs has a huge advantage over someone without legs.

Think of this: When Jesus had to suffer the loss of a loved one, he knew -- not believed, knew -- he would see them again. And in one case, was able to raise his friend from the dead. It's a lot easier to avoid that tailspin of depression and loss of faith if you're God. If he was having logistical difficulties with a large audience, he could poof some food into existence; makes it a lot easier to not get frustrated and snap at an assistant. If he wanted to prove he was right, he could just wow people by walking on water or turning water into wine or something.

He had an advantage, plain as that. He was not limited to human ability.
 
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iknownothing said:
Do you believe that there is any possibility that any human being can make it through an average life span without sin? (Jesus doesn't count since he was really God in disguise.)
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Psychopaths get a free ride.
 
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