Forgiven for what, eactly?

[Robin]

It's not so much that God predicted it as much as He observes it. It is.

This is only an issue because people are hung up on time.

Time is a relative physical property. See Einstein.

What we see, from within time, is past, present and future.

From outside the limitations of the physical dimension, it can all be seen as one contiguous whole. It is.

Likewise God says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Which means of course that God creates the Universe as a simultaneous whole.

When God looks upon his creation in Genesis he sees the whole - every event that ever will happen in the Universe - including all all of his own contributions - every one of your prayers and his answers to them.

Incidentally what do you say to my little thought experiment: You wake up in the morning and find a letter on the mantlepiece describing every single one of your actions for the following day in precise detail and signed by God.

Presuming it really does come from God, can you decide to do otherwise than the letter describes? Or would you find yourself doing precisely as the letter describes?

Suppose the letter really is from God but you are not sure, so you try to test it out by attempting to do otherwise - could you? If it says "you will eat eggs for breakfast" would you find yourself compelled to eat eggs despite your best efforts not to?

 

[Halfcentaur]

I would agree, but I appreciate the politeness you built into your condescension. Thank you for that.
Forgive me if I choose not to respond directly to what I consider to be wholly inappropriate speculation about my personal life.

I am sorry if it's inappropriate, I am just far more interested in the actual behavior and mechanisms of behavior that are involved in the choices and ideas of other people. To understand these sorts of things, I have to consider what could lead to them happening.

Certainly. I consider an atheist universe to be entirely reasonable; I simply consider it be untrue. My life includes enough first-hand evidence of God to be confident in His existence.

I wish this evidence was made available to me as well if I am in danger of missing out on the pinnacle of existence for not having that same confidence. I cannot approve morally of the Christian god without lying, and if I am supposed to do that, I am confused. If the first hand evidence you've alluded to has been available to me and I somehow ignored or missed it, I am confused why I should be punished for it. These are not situations I am challenging you to explain, I am just explaining myself. Thank you for trying to do the same for so long in this thread without getting agitated.

 

[Sophronius]

It is clear . . . clearly wrong!

Or perhaps you just don't understand it.

If the future is set then what Truman wants has no bearing. If Truman's wants have a bearing on the future, then the future is not set.

Look, I've explained this several times now. If you see anything wrong with my reasoning, then tell me what it is. What on earth is the merit of repeating the same thing over and over again?

I'll try one more time then: The future is set, but taking into account the preferences of Truman. Thus, his wants do have bearing, even though it's not possible for him to do something other than that which he will choose to do.

Certainly. I consider an atheist universe to be entirely reasonable; I simply consider it be untrue. My life includes enough first-hand evidence of God to be confident in His existence.

Do these personal experiences clearly show that it is the Christian God at work? Specifically, does it support the version of Christianity that you adhere to? If not, how do you know that your interpretations are correct and all the Christians disagreeing with you are wrong?

Also, how do these personal (and thus subjective) experiences weigh up against the mountains of evidence that shows that the Bible is just a book written by mortal men?

 

[Matt the Poet]

I am sorry if it's inappropriate, I wish this evidence was made available to me as well if I am in danger of missing out on the pinnacle of existence for not having that same confidence. I cannot approve morally of the Christian god without lying, and if I am supposed to do that, I am confused. If the first hand evidence you've alluded to has been available to me and I somehow ignored or missed it, I am confused why I should be punished for it. These are not situations I am challenging you to explain, I am just explaining myself. Thank you for trying to do the same for so long in this thread without getting agitated.

Alas, this is the one question that even the reasonable ones don’t answer, and to me as an outsider it’s the most mystifying and intriguing thing about religion. Forget the logical contradictions inherent in an omnipotent-yet-personal god – you can always rustle up some sufficiently advanced magic. Forget the weird individual rules about shellfish and mumbling in the vague direction of a middle eastern city five times a day – we all have our little foibles. It’s this basic 'why' that’s at the heart of it?

Why do I need God to forgive me? Why is Its forgiveness dependent on not just my acceptance of certain historical events, but my public declaration that I’ve accepted them? Why do I need this ‘God’ thing at all? From an external view this stuff looks like nonsense, they know it looks like nonsense, some of them even admit it looks like nonsense and yet they apparently have some sort of overriding ‘reason’ to believe it. So why? Why, why, why?

They don’t answer. Sometimes they become shocked, not to say insulted, that you’ve asked the question at all. Sometimes they get smug and cryptic and tell you ‘you’ll find out…’. Sometimes they seem to think you already know and are simply hiding it from yourself because you’re ‘angry at God’ or some such. Most of the time they just ignore you. They never, ever answer

I’m beginning to suspect they don’t know themselves. Which is…somewhere between uncanny and horrifying, frankly. How can something be simultaneously self-evident and inexplicable? How can people base their entire worldview on something they can’t reasonably justify?

 

[iknownothing]

AvalonXQ, I think the free will topic here is stalled & people are just repeating themselves. But I would love it if you would address the really excellent points below:

The problem with this from my perspective is that your God punishes people for doing what He already knows they will do when He creates them.

He makes it impossible for us to live by His rules and then punishes us for not doing the impossible.

Then we are supposed to beg for forgiveness for our very existence.

This is the central question in this thread IMO.

If I set a rule that I knew without a doubt that my 3 year old couldn't live up to, and then threatened her with severe punishment if she fell short, but then told her I would forgive her if she begged me to, that would make me a psycho. How do you approve of a God who acts that way?

We may have free will about each individual choice in our life. But we absolutely do not, in the Christian worldview, have any free will about whether we are capable of living without sin. It does not seem just to punish people for failing to achieve a standard they are incapable of.

He also knows that if I say otherwise, I would be lieing.

Would God punish me for being honest? According to your theology, He would.

What is an atheist supposed to do, in a Christian's view? Lie? If you really just do not believe the Christian story, why is it wrong to tell the truth about that?

Why does God care whether people believe in him or not?

 

[ToddH]

Why does God care whether people believe in him or not?

Low self esteem.

 

[tsig]

It's not so much that God predicted it as much as He observes it. It is.

This is only an issue because people are hung up on time.

Time is a relative physical property. See Einstein.

What we see, from within time, is past, present and future.

From outside the limitations of the physical dimension, it can all be seen as one contiguous whole. It is.

Likewise God says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

In other words "It's a miracle" or more concisely "goddidit"

 

[SOdhner]

It's not so much that God predicted it as much as He observes it. It is.

That still leaves the free will problem, because god isn't just an observer - he created the entire universe with foreknowledge of (and control over) what that would entail and so he bears responsibility for all events within the universe. We have no free will, because every single aspect of the universe from start to finish is god's will, not ours.

So... why would we be held responsible?

 

[AvalonXQ]

If the first hand evidence you've alluded to has been available to me and I somehow ignored or missed it, I am confused why I should be punished for it.

We are punished only for the knowing wrongs we commit, not for anything else. We're not punished for failing to believe in Christ -- any more than going to jail for a crime you committed is punishment for ignoring a plea bargain.

 

[I Ratant]

Low self esteem.

.
Both the worshipee and the worshiper.

 

[drkitten]

We are punished only for the knowing wrongs we commit, not for anything else.

... or for being descended from Adam.

Unless, of course, we believe in Christ and ask Him to forgive us the burden of Original Sin which He saw fit to inflict upon us in the first place.

 

[Matt the Poet]

We are punished only for the knowing wrongs we commit, not for anything else. We're not punished for failing to believe in Christ -- any more than going to jail for a crime you committed is punishment for ignoring a plea bargain.

See this – here – a perfect example. A restatement of what you believe, but no addressing the original question of why you believe it. Why is this question so hard for you to answer directly?

 

[SOdhner]

any more than going to jail for a crime you committed is punishment for ignoring a plea bargain.

Not a great analogy. It would be more like if I were brainwashed and programmed by the judge to do something, and then afterwards he declared me guilty and threw me in jail while pretending he was just so diappointed in me. Add into that that any "plea bargain" comes from some third party on the street with no guarantee that he is a valid officer of the court, and with the attached requirement that I sign a document that says I am 100% convinced that he is the one true person authorized to offer plea bargains.

 

[Aepervius]

We are punished only for the knowing wrongs we commit, not for anything else. We're not punished for failing to believe in Christ -- any more than going to jail for a crime you committed is punishment for ignoring a plea bargain.

So a psychopath having no sense of morality , hate or love, would not go punished, sicne he does not know the wrong he is commiting ?

 

[AvalonXQ]

So a psychopath having no sense of morality , hate or love, would not go punished, sicne he does not know the wrong he is commiting ?

A being with no ability to make moral choices cannot sin, and has no soul (or at least no expression of his soul). Such a being is theological equivalent of an animal. No, I don't see such a being as facing judgment at all.
Judgment is predicated on free will choice.

 

[tsig]

A being with no ability to make moral choices cannot sin, and has no soul (or at least no expression of his soul). Such a being is theological equivalent of an animal. No, I don't see such a being as facing judgment at all.
Judgment is predicated on free will choice.

Then what happens to psychopaths who have killed many people?

 

[iknownothing]

Judgment is predicated on free will choice.

But again, people have absolutely no choice about whether we are sinners. It is an absolute guarantee, in Christian belief, that each person will sin.

So there is no free will choice about that.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Then what happens to psychopaths who have killed many people?

If you are claiming the existence of a person who kills without the capacity to make moral choices, they are no more under condemnation than a man-eating lion would be.
I'm not sure I agree that such humans actually exist, but there is no condemnation without choosing wrong. There is no such thing as inevitable sin.

 

[tsig]

But again, people have absolutely no choice about whether we are sinners. It is an absolute guarantee, in Christian belief, that each person will sin.

So there is no free will choice about that.

And god must punish you for the sin because he's perfect and can't stand imperfection. It seems like we're caught in a Greek tragedy where nobody intends to do evil but everyone still gets killed.

 

[AvalonXQ]

And god must punish you for the sin because he's perfect and can't stand imperfection. It seems like we're caught in a Greek tragedy where nobody intends to do evil but everyone still gets killed.

Hence the Deus ex Machina -- Jesus. He's the escape route from the path of sin and death. He can do what we can't -- fix our mess.