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Forgiven for what, eactly?

SOdhner said:
Also, obviously, you are still avoiding any reply to the points I made previously showing that god is responsible for all actions in the universe thus removing any responsibility or free will from the individual beings within it,
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I addressed those points early on, explaining that I disagree and why. You persist, and I don't know what more there is to say on the subject. I fundamentally disagree with your characterization of moral responsibility on the basis of the nature of free will, which you don't agree with, and the nature of omnipotent choice, which you use to posit counterfactuals that I don't accept. I'm not trying to ignore you; what more is there to discuss on the subject?

but I'm used to that by now.
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The dig is unnecessary.
 
AvalonXQ said:
You've hit the nail on the head -- that's a very reasonable interpretation of what Paul is saying in that part of Romans, and I don't immediately see anything in what you said that I disagree with.
We do suffer the material consequences for the sins of others. But our own eternal destination is based on our choices, and no one else's.
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I'm afraid that I don't understand your position since you seem to base it on Paul's writings. There were already means of 'washing away sin' in Judaism. Paul's argument was that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary not only because it was a better means of 'washing away sin' but also because sin was some sort of metaphysical force in the world in which everyone shared. If people could just lead good lives what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice?

If one could wash away sin through other means, is Christianity just Judaism-lite, the easy road? That does not seem to resemble Paul's argument at all.
 
AvalonXQ said:
Page 8.
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Okay, here's how it went starting from page eight. Yes, this is me actually combing through each page and not just randomly typing. I really did re-read my posts and your replies to them (or lack thereof).

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ME: Because god knew the consequences of his actions ahead of time and was in complete control of the conditions and variables, he made all the choices that will ever exist in the universe at the moment he created it.

YOU: Making something isn't the same as making all that thing's choices

ME: Right, normally, but in this case it is making that thing and EVERYTHING ELSE in the entire universe for all of history in a specific way of your choosing knowing all of the consequences of it.

YOU: But it works anyway.

ME: But you haven't provided any way FOR it to work. Here's a detailed example, pointing out what you are missing.

You: (not responding to anything I wrote) Magic?

ME: Here's a detailed clarification, and an explanation of what you are not addressing.

YOU: ...

ME: You still haven't actually addressed my point.

YOU: ...

ME: You still haven't actually addressed my point.

YOU: ...

ME: You still haven't actually addressed my point.

YOU: ...

ME: You still haven't actually addressed my point.

YOU: ...

ME: You still haven't actually addressed my point.

YOU: ...

ME: You still haven't actually addressed my point.

YOU: ...

ME: You still haven't actually addressed my point.

YOU: ...

ME: You still haven't actually addressed my point, but I'm used to that by now.

YOU: The dig is unnecessary.
 
All right, if this is an accurate summary of the thread to this point, then I apologize. Please repost your "detailed clarification, and an explanation of what [I'm] not addressing", and I'll respond.
 
Hellbound said:
Can you elaborate? Because, frankly, I don't agree.

Is, or is not, mortality the consequence (i.e.-punishment) for Adam's sin (eating the fruit)?

Is it not true, according to the Bible, that humans would live forever before Adam partook of the fruit?

Isn't eternal life the goal/reward of Heaven, and it's absence the punishment of Hell?

So, Adam's punishment was the removal of imortality, something which is still with us. We have given up our claim on eternal life because of Adam's sin.

While I agree that the traditional doctrine of foriginal sin is incorrect (that we are responsible for the sins of our fathers), I disagree that it is entirely incorrect, as we are obviously still being punished from Adam's mistake (we are denied eternal life because of him, and have to "re-earn" it).
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Original sin and the "sins of the fathers" go together with the typical extermination of family lines as related in the OT.
And done today by violent rulers.
Everyone does it, not just Jews and Christians.
 
Ichneumonwasp said:
I'm afraid that I don't understand your position since you seem to base it on Paul's writings. There were already means of 'washing away sin' in Judaism. Paul's argument was that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary not only because it was a better means of 'washing away sin' but also because sin was some sort of metaphysical force in the world in which everyone shared. If people could just lead good lives what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice?

If one could wash away sin through other means, is Christianity just Judaism-lite, the easy road? That does not seem to resemble Paul's argument at all.
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And how come it is that the cleansing of sin which had lead to death didn't remove death?
 
Here are the main posts:

SOdhner said:
You can say that all day, but you haven't provided a mechanism for it.

If I push someone off a building (NOTE: I am not advocating pushing anyone off of anything.) was it my choice to push them, or their choice to fall? Let's also say I'm stronger than them, and they were tied up, and what the heck, even drugged. Did they have free will to chose NOT to fall off the building once I had pushed them off? Free will to chose to just hover there instead?

Of course not. But why?

Because I had taken control of the situation. Now let's say that rather than something so overt as drugging them and tying them up, I get a little more subtle. Sneaky. I manipulate events to make them fall off without me pushing them - it involves a spring-loaded platform and a phone call thelling them that their puppy is on the roof, I won't bother you with the details.

In that case, you could argue that the vector for free will was whether or not they chose to believe me when I told them where the puppy was. Shaky, maybe, depending on the hypothetical scenario - but it's there.

Now let's go back to god. He created the puppy, the building, me, the person falling off the building, the weather conditions, gravity, the air that is being fallen through, etc. He did this all knowing it would mean someone would take a nose-dive off the building. He took control of the situation... EVERY aspect of it... and so the people involved can't be said to have free will. It's not chance that makes that person hit the pavement (and survive, let's say, for the kiddies playing along). It is deliberate calculation - a choice made before time itself.

Any other "choices" are just a part of that earlier arrangement.
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SOdhner said:
Let's try it this way. First, while I think we are already on the same page here, these are the two main things I would expect you to agree to. If the answer for both of these is 'yes', you can just skip ahead. Otherwise, let me know because it would mean we have different understandings of some of the premise and this whole conversation is probably a waste of our time.

1. When god created the universe, could he have chosen to create it any other way?
2. Before god created the universe, did he know exactly how everything would happen?


Okay.


So, if I decide to eat a sandwich we could totally break it down and say that first I decided to get up, and then to go to the kitchen, and then to open the fridge, and then to get out the mayo, and then to... and so on, all the way to each individual bite and chewing and whatnot.

But we don't. We just say that I decided to eat a sandwich. What I'm saying is that in this scenario it would be most accurate to say "god made the universe and all the things and events in it". Any specific part of those things or events are still, at a fundamental level, just part of god's one decision to make the universe.

Saying that I made the choice to eat a sandwich but on bite number 32, mastication number 192, one of my molars made a choice to apply pressure to the turkey is silly. I ate the sandwich.

God's act of creation was a one-time choice, that incorperated the entire universe not only in substance but in events - especially if you don't think god is bound by time.
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What it comes down to is you continued to talk in terms of KNOWLEDGE which is understandable since other posters were focusing on the whole omniscience thing. Just to be clear, I do not think that omniscience invalidates free will. I think that the only reason that omniscience is important in this scenario is because without being able to understand the consequences of your actions, you can't really be held accountable for them.

Likewise, the omnipotence is important because without being able to CONTROL the consequences of your actions it can also be the case that you can't be held accountable. Even so, you can be both omnipotent and omniscient without voiding the free will of people.

What is actually the primary issue is a choice that was made, and an action taken. God exerted his free will to create the universe in a specific way when he was presumably free to make it in other ways if he so chose. Those other ways might have been worse, or better, or just different and that's not relevant. What is relevant is that the design of the universe was a choice, and that design included - before the actual act of creation - all of the choices that would be made in the universe.

It's not that he knew them, it's that he CHOSE them. God - especially if you believe that he is outside of time - made the entire universe from start to finish in a single choice. It was a deliberate act that knowingly involved not just every physical object but every event in the entire universe.

Since he already made that choice, and all of my choices are included within it, it is god's will being done by my actions and not my own.
 
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AvalonXQ, you believe then that people are capable of living a completely blameless life. Does it give you any doubts whatsoever to consider that:

1) Not one person has ever achieved perfection. Out of billions of people through all of human history, no one has done it. (Jesus does not count, since he had advantages no one else does.)
2) God, who created everything in the entire universe including humans with all our flaws, takes zero responsibility for anything bad that happens.
3) Humans, who did not have any choice in how we or the universe was created, are given 100% of the blame.
4) The punishment we are assigned, as a result of the terrible thing we did that we had no power to avoid, is Hell. (Which, as a pp pointed out, ranges in Christian thought from non-existence to psychotic torture for all eternity. Regardless, the Bible is pretty sure that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, so it must be bad.)

I notice you are fond of phrasing the idea of salvation through faith as 'accepting a gift.' That's a more acceptable-sounding way to put it, but not really accurate.

If I give someone a gift, I don't hide it and make them swear to me first that they really believe I have a gift for them -- I just give it! I don't dictate self-contradictory, vague books about it, and then deliver the books through a third person to someone I've never met, and then expect that recipient to correctly interpret the books to understand that there is a gift involved. I don't need anyone to believe I'm real to give them a gift; I know I'm real, and that's enough.

It's just nonsensical, all of it, beginning to end.
 
I Ratant said:
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And how come it is that the cleansing of sin which had lead to death didn't remove death?
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Well, according to Paul it did. That's what the general resurrection was supposed to be all about -- the righteous dead, the dead in Christ and people still alive who accepted Jesus were supposed to go be with him in heaven with the righteous dead rising first. It just didn't get rid of death in this world, which seems kind of strange, doesn't it? I mean, what better advertisement for accepting Jesus could there be but a 2000 year old man?
 
Ichneumonwasp said:
Well, according to Paul it did. That's what the general resurrection was supposed to be all about -- the righteous dead, the dead in Christ and people still alive who accepted Jesus were supposed to go be with him in heaven with the righteous dead rising first. It just didn't get rid of death in this world, which seems kind of strange, doesn't it? I mean, what better advertisement for accepting Jesus could there be but a 2000 year old man?
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Having seen a few centenarians, I wonder what would be left after 2000 years?
Something resembling a brain in a jar?
And really advanced dementia.
Not all that attractive.
3 score and 10 seems fair.
 
I Ratant said:
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Having seen a few centenarians, I wonder what would be left after 2000 years?
Something resembling a brain in a jar?
And really advanced dementia.
Not all that attractive.
3 score and 10 seems fair.
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Ah, but if we reverse the ravages of sin we would all be Dorian Gray. And the beer sounds phenomenal.
 
SOdhner said:
Likewise, the omnipotence is important because without being able to CONTROL the consequences of your actions it can also be the case that you can't be held accountable.
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But even with omnipotence and omniscience, if God creates a creature to exercise free will, God is not controlling the choices of that creature. That's the definition of free will.

What is actually the primary issue is a choice that was made, and an action taken. God exerted his free will to create the universe in a specific way when he was presumably free to make it in other ways if he so chose. Those other ways might have been worse, or better, or just different and that's not relevant. What is relevant is that the design of the universe was a choice, and that design included - before the actual act of creation - all of the choices that would be made in the universe.
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This is an assumption I'm not comfortable with. Does God have free will? Did God choose among alternative worlds in creating the world as He did? I honestly don't know. So anything that requires God's free will choice as a premise is something I'm not ready to accept at face value.

It's not that he knew them, it's that he CHOSE them. God - especially if you believe that he is outside of time - made the entire universe from start to finish in a single choice. It was a deliberate act that knowingly involved not just every physical object but every event in the entire universe.
Since he already made that choice, and all of my choices are included within it, it is god's will being done by my actions and not my own.
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Again, I disagree -- although it was God's will that a free moral agent be created, and although God knew what choices the free moral agent would make, this does not negate the free agency behind those choices. Nor do you seem to be presenting a reason to believe that the free agency is negated, other than the fact that a knowing and voluntary action by God was necessary for that choice to ever be possible.
As an extreme example, let's say that I built a shooting range, bought a gun, loaded the gun, stood you in front of the target, put the gun in your hand, lined up your sights on the target, and put your finger on the trigger. Then I stand back.
You then pull the trigger.
Could I be said to be a necessary cause of that target getting shot? Of course. Did I make free will choices that resulted in that target getting shot? Sure. But the fact that you had a choice as to whether or not to pull the trigger, regardless of whether I knew that you would pull the trigger or not, means that your free will choice was an intervening cause in that target being shot. None of my facilitative steps remove your choice. Your choice is still there, and it's a real choice.
Something I don't think I've said before now -- I do think there are hypothetical circumstances where humans don't really have free will choices, and in fact I think it takes a particularly detailed design for God to live up to His assurances to us that we will never be tempted past the point where we have the capacity to resist. But that's the guarantee we have -- that although in practice we all sin at some point, the sin is always an individual choice, not some sort of entrapment. Moral situations are carefully constructed in our lives to always permit a morally right solution that is actually available for use.
I don't see this as any sort of iron-clad refutation of your points; as I said before, I think your position is reasonable. But I hope you feel I've addressed your points.
 
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AvalonXQ said:
But even with omnipotence and omniscience, if God creates a creature to exercise free will, God is not controlling the choices of that creature. That's the definition of free will.
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That feels like a tautology to me. This is heading down the road of "can god make a square circle" with me saying no because something can't be both square and circular you saying that he can because he's god. The problem is that "square circle" isn't a thing. Under these circumstances free will isn't an option - I've tried to explain why and while am open to the idea that I may be wrong the above refutation doesn't help me to see WHY you think I'm wrong.

AvalonXQ said:
This is an assumption I'm not comfortable with. Does God have free will? Did God choose among alternative worlds in creating the world as He did? I honestly don't know. So anything that requires God's free will choice as a premise is something I'm not ready to accept at face value.
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I will concede that if god did not have free will when creating the universe or did not have the option to do it in any way other than he did (not just due to personal preference but due to an actual limitation) then my point is weakened to the extent that I would just drop it. I would also probably let it go if god created ALL possible realities for similar reasons.

My stance is founded on the idea that god made a choice. If god was powerless in that aspect then it's the same (for these purposes) as saying that he didn't create the universe at all. Honestly, though, it seems silly to say that there's only one way to create the universe. I can think of plenty of changes you could make just off the top of my head. Granted, a lot of them would result in really stupid universes.

AvalonXQ said:
As an extreme example, let's say that I built a shooting range, bought a gun, loaded the gun, stood you in front of the target, put the gun in your hand, lined up your sights on the target, and put your finger on the trigger. Then I stand back.
You then pull the trigger.
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That's not a very good example, because you're still thinking on a human level. In this scenario the extent of your control was limited. You had no say over whether or not I would pull the trigger, or if I would turn and shoot at a tree, or if I would sneeze and miss due to that, or if I would hurl the gun at the target in a pathetic misunderstanding of how firing ranges work.

I could argue that you take on some small amount of responsibility in that scenario, but not much.

AvalonXQ said:
But the fact that you had a choice as to whether or not to pull the trigger, regardless of whether I knew that you would pull the trigger or not, means that your free will choice was an intervening cause in that target being shot. None of my facilitative steps remove your choice. Your choice is still there, and it's a real choice.
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Right, because you stopped controlling events before my choice was made. You influenced that choice, and then stepped back.

That cannot be said of god because when he made the universe that creation wasn't just triggering the big bang or making a garden somewhere. It was inclusive of all the events within the universe.

Let's say I make a set of marble tracks. Depending on where you drop the marble, it might follow any number of different routes. As an imperfect human if I just drop the marble there's a lot of factors I can't plan for but let's not overthink the analogy. Let's not worry about friction and imperfections in the marble track unless you can detail what that would correspond to outside of this example. So. I have NOT let go of the marble yet, but looking over the tracks I know which one leads where and so I know just where to drop the marble to cause it to end up at a particular place.

Knowing is only important because it allows me to do the next step: I pick a route, and put the marble there.

The action of putting that marble on the track was something I did of my own free will - and my will is now being exerted on the marble. But I didn't just choose where to let go of the marble - that was the action, but the CHOICE includes where the marble would end up. You can't act like the influence has stopped once I let go, because once I take the action of letting go the marble is still subject to the consequences of that action and still ends up where I chose. Every turn of the track was created by me. Every dip and loop was known before I let go of the marble - not just known but planned and chosen. Where is the marble's free will?
 
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