Public Education is a Socialist Monopoly

[John Jones]

Anyone who deigns to disagree with Leftists on any matter of major significance is instantly rebuked for "quote-mining." But somehow Leftists pull it off without anybody uttering a word.

If you don't stop the name-calling, I'm telling teacher!

 

[GreyArea]

Please. Since you are so good at research and quoting people, why don't you find something validating Dr. Williams' points.

You see, this is further evidence that you just don't understand much. Ax-grinders like yourself find an emotionally-appealing claim, and then look for data to support it, which is backwards. This is your mistake, one of the common logical fallacies. Instead, you are supposed to find the facts first, and then base your opinions on that foundation.

Furthermore, your appeals to authority are, as your grandchildren say, "meh". My job isn't to do Williams' research for him. His errors are his own problem, and now they are yours since you just accept his claims, on authority.

I can understand making a mistake from time to time. We're all human. But web-fora like this exist so peers can help each other avoid or overcome such errors in thinking.

You, however, don't seem to be interested in learning anything. Why are you here, Jonathan?

It really isn't that hard, IF ONLY you would put honest effort into it.
http://www.abcte.org/taxonomy/term/3026

Did you pull that one out of your "Right-wing Think-tanks" bookmark folder? How about a source without an ideological agenda?

Now there you go, "quote-mining."

Do you have any contrary evidence that suggests that Simanek doesn't like that book?

And what reasoning process leads you to dismiss his support for teaching evolution, and at the same time accept his claims about teaching itself?

___________

Meanwhile, I think I found an explanation for why you see in your immediate area relatively high top salaries for teachers. Read my comment here, in light of Doubt's find here and his explanation about averages and outliers here.

You should see that this is not a big mystery.

Since your household makes more than $300,000 per year, I think it is safe to say that you live in a wealthy area with an outlier school district. So of course you will see around you teacher pay that is higher than in most parts of the country.

Since I'm asking how you discern facts from fictions, I'll ask another one. How do you make a distinction between what you see in your immediate surroundings (such as the school district in your area) and the trends and statistics for the entire country?

___________

Someone responding without being hateful, or intolerant, or utterly and completely condescending
...
You are among the best at understanding even simple sentences.... But at least you made a good faith effort....

Pot kettle.

Jonathan, in your day-to-day life, are most of the people around you sycophants? That may be why you're having such a hard time here.

 

[JonathanQuick]

Arguments from authority won't get you very far here...you have to cite evidence--which you haven't. You have also made so many strawman (SIC) and racist/bigoted statements, that you really don't rate a rational response. But I am going to try anyhow.

You've already fallen flat on your face.

1. THE PRIMARY ARGUMENTS IN ANY discussion of evolution, or global warming is THE ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY! "Every scientist believes it!
So YOU must concur or you will be hatefully reviled, forever."

Well, the second sentence is not expressly stated, only practiced.

2. You don't know the difference between singular and plural.

3. IF in fact I had made "so many... racist/bigoted statements," you certainly would have cited a FEW of them as evidence. This you utterly failed to do, as you have failed in so many other ways. Are you a teacher?

Along the lines of "racist" or "bigoted" statements, I will state that MY best man was black. Clue: I am white. Can any of you race-baiting leftists say as much? Show of hands please.

Hindmost: As others have pointed out: People that (SIC) start out as education majors don't necessarily become teachers.

I didn't say they did become teachers. Neither did Professor Williams. Surely you have a point.

And glenn, don't you realize the difference between pronouns "that" and "who"? Can't you write above a seventh-grade level? Is that too much to ask?

If you read the link I provided, you would see that classroom teachers are above average. Williams is cherry picking and you need to vet such things.

Professor Williams is a deep thinker, and a wise man. He doesn't misspell simple words. You and many of your pals throughout the Randi message boards do, and in so doing, display the ignorance of school kids. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that each and every one of you Misspelling Ignorati laughed and cackled at Dan Quayle, for his infamous "potatoe" incident, and much more recently, at George Bush, for every trivial gaffe he ever made.

Such deep and wide hypocrisy never ever occurs to Leftists because hypocrisy, like mendacity, is a sine qua non for liberalism.

You seem to assume that teachers are all liberals...this is just wrong and you have no evidence besides your own rant. Teachers tend to follow a bell shaped curve, just like the rest of the public.

Oh please. Please spare me your opinions. Survey after survey has demonstrated the left-wing extremism permeating public education.

Why ELSE would a conservative like me be pummeled and assailed here?
Show me a list of the conservative teachers who have rallied to my defense.

As I said, mendacity is a sine qua non of liberalism (depending on what the meaning of 'is' is).

I recommend you try teaching for a bit...see if you can survive. You might learn something.

glenn

Please write some of your most profound, most enlightening and educational thoughts, right here, right now.

I would LOVE for you to teach me something. What do you have?

Don't just talk trash and then waddle away. Let's see something from you.

 

[JonathanQuick]

You see, this is further evidence that you just don't understand much.

And YOU, Oh Wise One, understand ALL.

What could possibly be clearer than that.

///

Furthermore, your appeals to authority are, as your grandchildren say, "meh".

Look, Grey, I haven't the time to respond to each and every one of you Thinkalike Leftists here. You far outnumber me, and any time someone outside your Obama Youth Brigade dares to enter, all of you gang up on that individual relentlessly. YOU'RE all BRILLIANT, of course, and the skeptic is terminally STUPID. It's all so... so SIMPLE, isn't it.

Now let ME tell YOU something about the appeal to authority which clearly never entered your extraordinarily left-wing and limited thought process.

1. Most of what we KNOW is learned from Authority. Authorities write BOOKS and PEER-REVIEWED PAPERS which leftists simply LOVE to cite as evidence of their OWN intellectual superiority. It's the "ah yes, I have a peer-reviewed paper on MY side and you have... nothing".

2. Nobody but NOBODY uses the Argument From Authority remotely as much as Darwinists and Global Earth Warmers. NOBODY!

"Every biologist believes in fact, fact, fact evolution. Join us or you're stupid."

"Every scientist on earth except for the single oil company dolt believes in anthropogenic global warming. Join us or you're stupid."

Are you with me, Slick? Or did I go to fast for you?

I can understand making a mistake from time to time. We're all human. But web-fora like this exist so peers can help each other avoid or overcome such errors in thinking.

Profound left-wing hypocrisy, compounded by intolerance, and boundless condescension are mistakes and errors in thinking. Why don't you and your pals work on those. Randis are blinded by their GroupThink.

Science isn't advanced so much by consensus as it is by independent creativity. Had Orville and Wilbur Wright listened to the scientific community, these simple bicycle mechanics would never have attempted to build the first airplane.

"Heavier than air flight by humans is impossible." - Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society, circa 1899

 

[Craig4]

Don't get mad at us. You came here with a weak game and you got called on it. You've offered no solutions, some silly non sequiturs, bad quote mines and a poor understanding of the problem. You got called on it. What did you think was going to happen? Now you're acting like you exposed us to the truth? Please.

The world is a very complex place with lots of complex problems. You might want to spend some time exploring that complexity before you try cramming all the world's problems into you silly little us versus them world view.

 

[Hindmost]

You've already fallen flat on your face.

1. THE PRIMARY ARGUMENTS IN ANY discussion of evolution, or global warming is THE ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY! "Every scientist believes it!
So YOU must concur or you will be hatefully reviled, forever."

Well, the second sentence is not expressly stated, only practiced.

No, the primary argument on evolution and global warming is the evidence..such as Glacier National Park having to change its name to National Park. There has to be a reasonable consensus from multiple lines of evidence...then it becomes accepted.

2. You don't know the difference between singular and plural.

Many more typos will ensue. I confess to having poor writing skills.

3. IF in fact I had made "so many... racist/bigoted statements," you certainly would have cited a FEW of them as evidence. This you utterly failed to do, as you have failed in so many other ways. Are you a teacher?

Along the lines of "racist" or "bigoted" statements, I will state that MY best man was black. Clue: I am white. Can any of you race-baiting leftists say as much? Show of hands please.

Promoting homosexuality and multicultural nonsense have displaced too much reading, writing, and arithmetic.

....snip...

Chimps, out of the classroom. You just disrupt and fling poo.

I interpreted this as bigoted/racist. And obviously you are certainly intolerant of teachers. Sorry if I was wrong. By the way, I am not a leftist, nor a teacher...I was teaching for a brief period; I quit a few years ago.

I didn't say they did become teachers. Neither did Professor Williams. Surely you have a point.

And glenn, don't you realize the difference between pronouns "that" and "who"? Can't you write above a seventh-grade level? Is that too much to ask?

Another typo--I really don't proof read stuff. However, I cited evidence that teachers are above average...why do you keep harping on irrelavant data about students that don't become teachers--if they are not in the classroom, who cares. Cite some evidence about actual classroom teachers and we can debate it.

As far as this specific typo, I blame it on living in New Orleans for a bit.

Professor Williams is a deep thinker, and a wise man. He doesn't misspell simple words. You and many of your pals throughout the Randi message boards do, and in so doing, display the ignorance of school kids. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that each and every one of you Misspelling Ignorati laughed and cackled at Dan Quayle, for his infamous "potatoe" incident, and much more recently, at George Bush, for every trivial gaffe he ever made.

Such deep and wide hypocrisy never ever occurs to Leftists because hypocrisy, like mendacity, is a sine qua non for liberalism.

Another strawman and argument from authority...but you chastise me and obviously forgive them...Unfortunately, I will continue to misspell words...but I certainly won't try to correct others. Such deep and wide hypocrisy exists on both sides of the political divide.

People can be deep thinkers and still be wrong. Al Gore can be considered a deep thinker, but I doubt you would agree with him.

Oh please. Please spare me your opinions. Survey after survey has demonstrated the left-wing extremism permeating public education.

Why ELSE would a conservative like me be pummeled and assailed here?
Show me a list of the conservative teachers who have rallied to my defense.

As I said, mendacity is a sine qua non of liberalism (depending on what the meaning of 'is' is).

Please write some of your most profound, most enlightening and educational thoughts, right here, right now.

I would LOVE for you to teach me something. What do you have?

Don't just talk trash and then waddle away. Let's see something from you.

I cited evidence about teachers being politically moderate overall--that is not trash talk or my opinion. You obviously didn't read it or you completely dismissed it. In the words of sarah palin...man up. Cite something beside one person's opinion that who shares your views. If there are multiple, scientific surveys that contradict what I posted from Hoovers...put up the links and we can debate such.

You are being pummeled an assailed because you are throwing out standard right wing blog points unsupported by facts or data. The teachers and others here would be glad to debate the problems with schools with you--but you have to start with something besides an ideological rant.

I am serious about you trying to teach for a bit. Many school districts have systems to have visiting teachers or long-term subs in classrooms for a semester or so. Give it try.

glenn

some lite reading for you...

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/special_reports/voucher_report/v_vouc182.shtml


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0523/p01s03-usgn.html

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090226093423.htm

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/03/05/blackboard-jungle.html

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/03/09/bad-teachers-reform-them-or-retire-them.html

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/03/05/why-we-must-fire-bad-teachers.html

 

[excaza]

My goodness he's ping-ponging around.

Mr. Quick, how are vouchers less socialist?

 

[Alt+F4]

I didn't say they did become teachers. Neither did Professor Williams.

Yet Professor Williams thinks that what kids mark on the SAT questionnaire has something to do with teacher quality. He seems very confused about how high schools and colleges actually operate.

 

[Alt+F4]

The world is a very complex place with lots of complex problems. You might want to spend some time exploring that complexity before you try cramming all the world's problems into you silly little us versus them world view.

You're right. Folks like Jonathan just want to rant and be angry at a world they don't understand, can't fit into. They don't try to change what they see as wrong. Become a public school teacher, an administrator, change the system, join your local school board. They won't.

It's weird to me that in that type of world outlook, I'm the enemy, the bad girl, the destroyer of America. I have my liberal education, my liberal-to-moderate political ideology, my homosexuality and I'm a public school teacher in a big, very powerful union. I have tenure, make globs of money and only work 10 months a year. And oh yeah, unlike most of the ranters...I vote.

 

[ponderingturtle]

My goodness he's ping-ponging around.

Mr. Quick, how are vouchers less socialist?

By removing poorly performing students from those who need to be taught.

 

[Travis]

By removing poorly performing students from those who need to be taught.

I keep trying to tell him that is precisely why it's not a solution. But apparently I'm ignored now so....whatever.

 

[JonathanQuick]

Don't get mad at us. You came here with a weak game and you got called on it.

Craig, my "weak game" was quoting the late professor emeritus Milton Friedman, Nobel Laureate, and Albert Shanker,former teachers' union boss.

Now if YOU think THEIR "games" are "weak," you should say so. I will stand by the brilliance of Professor Friedman. He frequently agreed with the union boss, and said yes indeed, his job is to represent teachers, and not kids.

This is a very damning indictment of teachers, but it is well-deserved nonetheless.

On to your next comments:

You've offered no solutions, some silly non sequiturs, bad quote mines and a poor understanding of the problem. You got called on it. What did you think was going to happen? Now you're acting like you exposed us to the truth? Please.

Whether you haven't bothered to read what has been posted, or you have intentionally misstated the facts, either way you are being bothersome and subtracting from the sum total of human knowledge. I do not have time to banter with people who posit such nonsense as you are doing.

I have suggested:

1. Eliminating tenure, on the basis of a distinguished physics professor and personal friend

2. Providing vouchers, so the poorer class can enjoy SOME choice, as the Clintons and Gores and Obamas have enjoyed with their children, and I might add, as many public school teachers enjoy for their kids.

3. Getting rid of incompetent teachers.

4. Getting rid of teachers' unions.

5. Ridding public education of its extreme left-wing bias. It's sickening. It's stifling. It's extremely well documented.

Those are for starters.

Now, please, stop lying.

The world is a very complex place with lots of complex problems. You might want to spend some time exploring that complexity before you try cramming all the world's problems into you silly little us versus them world view.

Why don't you write for ten minutes on the most complex subject in your considerable repertoire.

I have often made such a challenge to others as condescending as you but I cannot recall a single one of them taking up the challenge. Not one.

Go, fish.

 

[fuelair]

Still waiting for that alternative.

=freeze/Hell.

 

[fuelair]

It's an outright lie to spell statistics "statisics". An outright lie!

Incidentally, isn't it a violation of Randi's Rules to say I'm "too stupid"?

]

Truth should be a defense, but, report it if you think so. Empty threats/ideas are equally useless.

 

[Alt+F4]

I have suggested:

1. Eliminating tenure, on the basis of a distinguished physics professor and personal friend

2. Providing vouchers, so the poorer class can enjoy SOME choice, as the Clintons and Gores and Obamas have enjoyed with their children, and I might add, as many public school teachers enjoy for their kids.

3. Getting rid of incompetent teachers.

4. Getting rid of teachers' unions.

5. Ridding public education of its extreme left-wing bias. It's sickening. It's stifling. It's extremely well documented.

Ok, you get on it. Please keep us updated on how you plan to achieve the above five proposals. You might want to check with the Khmer Rouge playbook on how to achieve number 5.

 

[Paradox74]

Paradox, you begin, as so very many people do, with an ASSUMPTION. Where did I EVER say "all left-wing atheists are bad"? Please provide that link. You cannot, because I never said that. Those were YOUR words, and YOU tried to put them in MY mouth. That is contemptibly misleading of you, sir. It tends to validate my claim that Leftists are terribly dishonest, for IF you are not a Leftist, you defend them.



There you go again. - Ronald Reagan to Jimmy Carter



WHERE did I say "all atheists are pinkos"? Again, those are YOUR words, not mine.
Atheists TEND to be Leftists. In fact, my friend, the physics professor, is a flaming pinko. But he sure likes to make money and spend it. I'm not aware of his ever having given a dime to any charity, however.

Who "are" Ayn Rand, Michael Shermer, and Penn Teller (SIC)?

Ayn Rand is dead. She was a libertarian. This is in stark contrast to the average Leftist/atheist.
Michael Shermer is one of the more arrogant and condescending individuals who smile and argue incessantly that there IS no God, and they know this with absolute certainty. They just never bother to prove it.

When you say "Penn Teller" you are speaking of two people. One is a fat bigmouth, and the other seems to be his main squeeze, one who never has a word to say, thankfully. His fat pal speaks more than enough for both of them.

I've looked through some of the other quotations again, made by other users of this fourm, and it appears that you have never made any statements of the kind. My apologies.

Now since you think yourself a student of history, why don't you do some work instead of emulating all your leftist friends and DEMANDING this and that of me. In any case, whatever I present, you will instantly reject.

Well, you are the one who's making theses claims in the first place.

After all, I say "jobs" and you write "school". You can't keep the simplest of ideas straight, obviously. Under such circumstances, debate with you is impossible.

Well, I am admitting my errors (you right about me saying "school" instead of "jobs"). That's better than saying nothing and running away with my tail between my legs (unlike some other liberals that I've meet).

"Not to go off topic here" but you have misconstrued and misquoted me repeatedly. What will you do next, claim that I said the earth is 6,000 years old?

Don't bother to answer. I'll converse with somebody else - hopefully someone who can accurately paraphrase me. You can't.

Ok, now that was directed towards another forum member, John Jones, not you. Let me point it out a second time:

I asked if you are a YEC.

Do you need that question explained to you?

Again, that is irrelevant to school vouchers, public schools etc. whether or not you're (or anyone else) a YEC.

 

[Travis]

I'd love to read JonathanQuick's plan to rid the school system of its "left wing bias."

 

[excaza]

By removing poorly performing students from those who need to be taught.

That doesn't make it less socialist. The money is still coming from the government.

 

[Locknar]

I've moved several posts to AAH; let's keep the discussion civil, on topic, addressing the argument vs attacking the aruger. and stop the bickering.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[GreyArea]

Or did I go to fast for you?

Can't you write above a seventh-grade level? Is that too much to ask?