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Public Education is a Socialist Monopoly

Well he's not smart enough to realize he has NO statisics regarding what a 17 year old kid marks on the SAT questionnaire and who actually ends up being an education major. Yikes, it appears he is too stupid to even know that when most high school students take the SAT they haven't even applied to college yet.

Therefore, it's an outright lie for Williams to state, "education majors score lower on the SAT than any other major."

It's an outright lie to spell statistics "statisics". An outright lie!

Incidentally, isn't it a violation of Randi's Rules to say I'm "too stupid"?

Were I to say such a thing, dozens of your Leftist pals would rant and rave and call the Thought Police on me.


http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams051904.asp
 
Promoting homosexuality and multicultural nonsense have displaced too much reading, writing, and arithmetic.


Wow. Intolerant, disgusting, blatant nonsense. Is all that "slaves should be free" talk getting in the way of education as well?
 
They're not "promoting homosexuality," they're promoting tolerance and trying to stop people from being ignorant.
 
It's an outright lie to spell statistics "statisics". An outright lie!

Sorry about that.

Incidentally, isn't it a violation of Randi's Rules to say I'm "too stupid"?

I'm not calling you stupid, I'm calling Professor Williams stupid, or intentionally deceptive.[/quote]
 
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I may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure he's calling Professor Walter Williams stupid, not you.

Indeed...

Here is the to link Professor Williams actual quote:

According to the National Center for Education Statistics (2001), students who select education as their major have the third-lowest SAT scores of 18 majors listed.
http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/index.php?news=4572

Now here is the link to the statistics at the National Center for Education Statistics, note it does not say students who “selected education” as their major, it says their “intended college major”. Where did the National Center for Education Statistics get this information? Check out the bottom of the page: from The College Board, which administers the SAT.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_145.asp

Not only was this information taken from the voluntary questionnaire section of the SAT, students are also asked, “How certain are you about your first choice of major or area of study?” The choices are 1) very certain; 2) fairly certain; or 3) not certain.

No one selects a major on the SAT.
 
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Thanks for the citation.

Williams wrote this in 2004 for Jewish World Review, a politically conservative website with numerous syndicated opinion columns and an orientation toward an Orthodox Jewish readership.WP
The linked piece refers to an earlier opinion column in which Williams cited a webpage from retired Indiana University (of Pennsylvania) physics professor Donald E. Simanek. Specifically, Williams refers to a talk given by Simanek about the state of education in the 1990's. It is here for those who are interested. I don't know if it was published in a peer-reviewed journal.

The sources are also very old. The data about intelligence test scores and field of specialization are from 1954. 1954?!? Only four out of twenty citations are from 1996, when the talk was last revised, and most are from the Seventies, when Simanek started keeping newspaper clippings on the topic.

Williams' column quotes Simanek about "academically weakest groups". But in Simanek's talk the quoted passage follows a statement of opinion. "I think the situation is actually worse than these graphs show...." He provides no data. Simanek even wrote "I hear some of you mumbling that these graphs are old. Does anyone here honestly think the situation is better today?" But he doesn't give evidence. Is his question an argument from ignorance or an ad populum?

What are these figures now? Is this even a valuable way to investigate the situation? Simanek was a physics teacher, so he might not be the best person to undertake such a study. Perhaps a sociologist would do a better job. (Yes, I said it.)

But the professor is not all bad. He has a series of webpages arguing against creationism. He even praises Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker! Does this bother you, Jonathan?

Simanek also has a page full of links about skepticism and pseudoscience, including a link to the James Randi Educational Foundation. He writes, "Wizard and skeptic James Randi is the enemy of humbug peddlers, snake-oil salesmen and other purveyors of poppycock." That's a nice quote.

Since you like some of Simanek's work, JQ, maybe you should spend some time reading these sites to which he links. Consider it a privately-funded education.
 
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You can see how exceedingly difficult it is to conduct a discussion when the positions are so very lopsided, me against dozens, perhaps scores of you, and when so many of you twist and pervert almost everything I say.

To quote from the Membership Agreement (to which you assented when signing up here):

The Forum is a discussion forum and we want it to be a friendly and lively (if challenging) forum for a mature audience and therefore will endeavour to ensure that civility will be the norm, but this does not mean that Members will be insulated from all insults and certainly not from challenges; the nature of the Forum inevitably involves strong emotions and opinions which can result in heated exchanges. Having your views challenged is not considered unfriendly nor uncivil.

Emphasis added.
 
So JQ , let me see if I understand your points.

You feel that teachers have too much power and security in their jobs and that the best way to get better teachers is to shake things up a bit by taking away tenure and breaking up the unions. Is this a correct interpretation of what you were saying?

You also believe that morality is something that schools should not be teaching. That is the job of their parents. Is this correct?

I'm a little confused about your position on the funding of schools. Are you saying that you are fine with schools continuing to be funded by the government?

I just want to make certain I am understanding your points correctly.
 
Incidentally, Professor Williams also notes that on the GRE,* the exam taken by college GRADUATES, or those ABOUT to graduate, education majors LEAP to second from the bottom, and sociology majors take their place in lowest average score.

Cite? Professor Williams doesn't provide one.

Is he talking about the GRE Subject Tests or the GRE General Test?
 
Originally Posted by MattusMaximus V
As I said before, it is no surprise that much of the support for private school vouchers comes from religious fundamentalists who wish to subvert the separation of church & state in the United States.

I find it darkly comic that people who tend to be so outwardly patriotic are so quick to throw our (American, the rest of you talk quietly among yourselves we'll be back in a minute) most cherished principals out the window.

"Most cherished principals"? What would those be?

Freedom - anathema to Leftists, who favor socialism
"One nation, under God" - also anathema to Leftists, who spin and lie relentlessly

Every single state in the United States has a preamble which acknowledges God.

Every penny, every dime, every nickel, every quarter, every dollar and five and ten and twenty you have ever spent reads "IN GOD WE TRUST".

I find the dishonesty of the Left absolutely incredible.

Moreover, the reason I support vouchers is the same reason Professor Friedman supported them. It's called "school choice"!

Bill and Hillary Clinton exercised it.
The Gores did likewise.
So do the Obamas.
So do a large percentage of public school teachers.

So NATURALLY, unions oppose choice in education.

It all goes back to what Albert Shanker said. "When children start paying union dues, I'll start representing them."

Until that time, suck it up, kids. And suffer.
 
So JQ , let me see if I understand your points.

You feel that teachers have too much power and security in their jobs and that the best way to get better teachers is to shake things up a bit by taking away tenure and breaking up the unions. Is this a correct interpretation of what you were saying?

A rare breath of fresh air. Someone responding without being hateful, or intolerant, or utterly and completely condescending, while displaying the kind of ignorance for which teachers lambasted Dan Quayle and George Bush.

Thank you for being so very different from all the others here.
How will you survive when they turn against you?

I quoted a distinguished professor. In fact, two of them.
Dr. Friedman said "Public education is a socialist monopoly." This made many readers here go ballistic. Some of them began slinging poo. The other said eliminating tenure would be enormously helpful. Imagine getting rid of bad teachers. Imagine that.

I believe both men had valid points.

You also believe that morality is something that schools should not be teaching. That is the job of their parents. Is this correct?
No, it is not. Despite what seem to be your best, most noble efforts, you didn't get it straight. I said NOTHING about "morality." You interjected that word. What I object to is teachers obsessing on homosexuality, in K-6! When kids don't KNOW and don't CARE about such things. They should be playing tag and reading kids' books, not worrying about sexual orientations.

Such nonsense talk only lends confusion where it is not needed.

I'm a little confused about your position on the funding of schools. Are you saying that you are fine with schools continuing to be funded by the government?

I just want to make certain I am understanding your points correctly.

Go back and re-read what I said. You are among the best at understanding even simple sentences, and still you have misconstrued what I said. But at least you made a good faith effort, which seems quite rare around here.
 
Thanks for the citation.



The sources are also very old.

Please. Since you are so good at research and quoting people, why don't you find something validating Dr. Williams' points. It really isn't that hard, IF ONLY you would put honest effort into it.

http://www.abcte.org/taxonomy/term/3026


He even praises Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker! Does this bother you, Jonathan?

Now there you go, "quote-mining."

Anyone who deigns to disagree with Leftists on any matter of major significance is instantly rebuked for "quote-mining." But somehow Leftists pull it off without anybody uttering a word.

Does this bother you? It's a rhetorical question of course. Of course it doesn't.



Since you like some of Simanek's work, JQ, maybe you should spend some time reading these sites to which he links. Consider it a privately-funded education.

Since you like Dawkins' work, maybe I'll give you some more of his egregious mistakes and oversights. A physicist addressed Dawkins a few years ago, saying, "You aren't a scientist. You're a biologist."

I'll bet you never heard that one, did you.

"The Pope is evil." - Dawkins

"Evil" is meaningless when you're an atheist.
 
It's a marvel how you manage to work so many random ranting points into a thread supposedly about education. You must be sneering at your screen typing all this crap.

I'll ask again: How are vouchers less socialist?
 
I'm quoting a distinguished professor of economics, who writes syndicated articles regularly. His name is Walter Williams, of George Mason University.

"Above average" says nothing. Professor Williams explicitly states that on average, teachers graduated in the bottom third of their college classes.

Now the average college graduate MAY BE "above average," but that does not begin to contradict Williams.

Williams also states that education majors score lower on the SAT than any other major. The second lowest is sociology.

Our parameter is not EVERYONE, it is college graduates.

Arguments from authority won't get you very far here...you have to cite evidence--which you haven't. You have also made so many strawman and racist/bigoted statements, that you really don't rate a rational response. But I am going to try anyhow.

As others have pointed out: People that start out as education majors don't necessarily become teachers. If you read the link I provided, you would see that classroom teachers are above average. Williams is cherry picking and you need to vet such things.

You seem to assume that teachers are all liberals...this is just wrong and you have no evidence besides your own rant. Teachers tend to follow a bell shaped curve, just like the rest of the public.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/rawfisher/2008/01/schools_monday_notsoliberal_te.html

I recommend you try teaching for a bit...see if you can survive. You might learn something.

glenn
 
Since I'm now on ignore he probably won't see this but I'm still puzzled over why.....WHY ON EARTH it matters in any way what the average SAT score of educators is? An O-4, ie Major, in the military gets around $80,000 a year. Would we see a quick condemnation of that if suddenly stats were produced that showed they tended to have low SAT scores?

Look, an honest, inquiring response. Why are comments like yours so very rare here?

Why is it that most remarks are as snarky, as ignorant, as biased as they can be? Can you answer me that please?
And why are decent people, like you, afraid to challenge the snarky, asinine comments of chimpanzees?

I've actually seen precious few insults thrown at you. But maybe you make the mistake of thinking that people who are not in lock step with your ideas are insulting you.

I repeat, a very good friend, and distinguished teacher, told me the MOST IMPORTANT thing that should be done to improve public education is to eliminate tenure.

Which is probably a very bad idea and the fact that your friend is a distinguished teacher does not change that.

This will strike a note of fear down the backs of all incompetent teachers. The rest should not worry.

There you are wrong. Very, very wrong. You see educational funding is normally divorced from mandates for hiring and firing of teachers. People will vote for tax decreases to fund education while simultaneously demanding that schools keep educating larger and larger groups of kids. So what do they do? Well I've seen what they do and one of the first things they do is try to find reasons to fire any teachers that they deem to be too expensive. Note that this is completely detached from any evaluation of their skills as a teacher. They did nothing wrong except be too old and therefore have a larger salary than fresh from college newbies. They then go to great lengths to get rid of those teachers even if parents and students protest due to their classroom effectiveness. I remember one incident where, in order to remove one high salaried teacher, they actually planted a tape recorder in a classroom to make sure he wasn't using any salty language. That's the kind of depths school districts will sink to in order to try and get newer cheaper teachers into the mix. What stops this kind of behavior? UNIONS! They stand up for these teachers.

But...no, keep living in your dream world where good teachers are always going to be protected by some sort of principled agenda in the absence of unions to protect them.

Milton Friedman worked tirelessly to promote school choice - something teachers' unions are completely opposed to, and for the most selfish, most obvious of reasons. Unions don't care about the kids, only about getting more dues. Albert Shanker said as much decades ago.

Actually they oppose school choice because they know, as all rational people do, that it would solve no problems and create numerous others. Letting parents skip their kids from one school to another willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster. Currently the private school system works only because a small percentage of people are interested in it and they can be selective in who they enroll. When everyone can choose to dump their kids into those schools how would that improve the situation in any way?

Get rid of unions, get rid of incompetent teachers, and stop conducting classrooms in such an extremist, left-wing fashion.

Promoting homosexuality and multicultural nonsense have displaced too much reading, writing, and arithmetic.

I challenge you to find one public school that has an actual "homosexual promotion" agenda.

Parents should be teaching their kids the values they wish.

They're going to do that anyways. Of course if the parents are teaching their kids to violently attack anyone that isn't a heterosexual Caucasian that could cause problems in the school environment. But I guess the school can't intervene there because that would be usurping the role of parent as sole arbiter of "values educator."

"Most cherished principals"? What would those be?

Freedom of expression and religion would be at the top of the list.

Freedom - anathema to Leftists, who favor socialism

Huh, please explain this.

"One nation, under God" - also anathema to Leftists, who spin and lie relentlessly

And it should be anathema to anyone who wants to preserve that cherished principal of "freedom of religion."

Every single state in the United States has a preamble which acknowledges God.

Every single state preamble could mention flying pink unicorns that fart out solid gold watches and it wouldn't mean anything.

Every penny, every dime, every nickel, every quarter, every dollar and five and ten and twenty you have ever spent reads "IN GOD WE TRUST".

A travesty thrust upon the Republic in the wake of the Civil War. Are you seriously going to defend such an inherently terrible action?

I find the dishonesty of the Left absolutely incredible.

Which was?

Moreover, the reason I support vouchers is the same reason Professor Friedman supported them. It's called "school choice"!

And you have failed to substantiate why that would improve things in any way. Remember you have to educate every single child not just the kids of doctors and engineers. You have to educate the thousands of kids in any city whose parents are nothing more than crack addicted miscreants. You have to educate kids who don't even want to be in school. You have to educate kids with special needs and learning disabilities.

How is school choice going to remedy things while keeping education freely available to all?

Bill and Hillary Clinton exercised it.
The Gores did likewise.
So do the Obamas.
So do a large percentage of public school teachers.

I know of no public school teachers that send their kids to private schools. And I know quite a few teachers.

You still haven't explained how vouchers are less socialist.

Or how they would even "fix" things.
 
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