Speak up for autism on Nov. 1st

[Jr1985]

To be fair, who's going to write articles and books portraying those with AS in a negative light? There's a natural tendency to look for the good, so we see articles telling us that without people with AS, we'd have missed out on technological advances (one article I read said we'd still be reading by candlelight). In principle I don't disagree with the larger premise. It's rare to find people highly successful in one area who are also well-balanced. An obsession about toasters is not all that productive. Obsession about music gives us Mozart.

Well in the book I have by Tony Attwood he certainly discusses all he negatives that come with it, it is a "disbility", afterall. But he also mentions the positives, and how "obsessions" could be turned into careers, etc.

Since the ASD's are probably genetic, and probably polygenic, perhaps some of the autistic genes, such as those that cause their obessional interests, are useful for science? So you don't necessarily have to have austism, but just some of it's traits, which are useful for science/art/whatever? Of course, if you have "too many" of the autistic alleles then you have extreme difficulty functioning.

I can't help thinking that if all these experts, who have spent years working with autistic people, keep saying that having autism (high-functioning) has some benefits, that there may be something to it? Even Hans Asperger, who obviously discovered AS, is quoted saying "It seems that for success in
science or art a dash of autism is essential." Unfortunately I can't find the original source, but I will try... I can only find bits and pieces of his translated work.

This discussion (at least in my mind) touches on a broader subject we've seen bandied about over the years. As new "disorders" are recognized, there's the reaction of, "Well, back when I was coming up those people were just <whatever>. They didn't have a disorder." ADHD comes to mind as a good example.

....

Funny you should mention DSPS because I'm convinced I have it too. When I'm not working/studying, I seem to automatically revert to staying up really late and waking in the late morning/early afternoon. I think perhaps it shows how our culture and society can give rise to "disorders". We have decided that you must work between 8am-5pm (for example), so anyone who doesn't fit that pattern is "lazy" or "disordered". Maybe "DSPS" is a normal part of human diversity, and may have an evolutionary advantage, e.g. maybe the "night owls" were watchmen during our cave dwelling days?

I think this also applies to autism to some degree, since the recruitment policy of some employers seems to value your ability to do well in an interview, over your ability to do the job. Also, the whole "it's who you know, not what you now". Someone with an ASD could be brilliant at their job, but because of their poor social skills they do badly at interviews, so they have trouble finding a job. If employers placed job skills above social skills maybe people with ASD's wouldn't have this problem, and could actually contribute more to society.

Also, an example for how culture/society changing has improved the lives of autistics is the internet. It has been a great advantage to autistics, since we can communicate and form relationships online.

Employers are supposed to make reasonable adjustments, so I don't think asking for your hours to be changed slightly is the much of a deal, neither is asking for some understanding/assistance during interviews. E.g. understanding that the interviewee has poor eye contact because they have autism, not because they are untrustworthy. On the other hand, attempting to get employed and keep your job as as a salesman may be unreasonable..?

I know someone with AS, who managed to get a job, but had difficulties performing well because different people kept giving him different instructions on how to do something. He tried to explain that he needed clear instructions on how to do something. An autistic charity also offered to provide free training on ASD's and offer advice on how to assist someone with autism. The employer flat out refused to take any training or make any adjustments and continued to reprimand him until he left. To me that seems unfair as they were unwilling to even try to help. Also, maybe deciding on a single set of intructions would benefit everyone, as it would be much clearer how to do something?

 

[Alt+F4]

Anecdeotal and empirical evidence suggests autism is probably genetic.

I mostly agree with you but I think it's more than just genetics since the majority of children with autism are boys.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I mostly agree with you but I think it's more than just genetics since the majority of children with autism are boys.

That used to be the prevailing opinion, though recently it has been suggested that, due to gender differences in socialisation, autistic spectrum disorders were simply going undiagnosed in girls. I'll see if I can find a citation for that - as soon as you find one for yours

 

[CelticRose]

This discussion (at least in my mind) touches on a broader subject we've seen bandied about over the years. As new "disorders" are recognized, there's the reaction of, "Well, back when I was coming up those people were just <whatever>. They didn't have a disorder." ADHD comes to mind as a good example.

I think time and technology, especially the Internet, will reveal more and more groups like that. In my own experience I have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. I've discussed it here and with people I know. Several have commented that they themselves or others they know seem to have the same thing. They didn't know such a label existed (if they seek treatment, it's often misdiagnosed as insomnia by general practitioners). Most of society considers us night owls who just prefer to go to bed late and don't like getting up in the morning, even though for many of us it can cause practical problems in life. In a way I am faced with changing a fundamental part of who I have been for the last 44 years. The prospect is daunting, and it's going to require a lot of effort to make the change and keep it going.

I can only imagine the backlash if somebody starts as DSPS foundation to advocate reasonable accommodations for us. Obviously, if a business has to serve customers at a certain time in the morning, it may be unreasonable to require them to allow somebody to come in later. However, if the job could be done just as well from 10-7 as it can from 8-5, why not let us keep those hours?

The natural reaction will be, "Just set a bunch of alarms and get your ass out of bed!" The reality is that it can be extremely difficult to wake up. More importantly, we end up running a sleep deficit during the week, which is bad for health (heart disease, diabetes, obesity, depression). Those who are "sleep typical" cannot grasp what we go through. It's not a choice.

I'm sure there are lots of other "disorders" out there. There are probably lots of clusters of similar characteristics people have that we simply haven't recognized yet. It's all very fascinating.

Thanks for this post, UncaYimmy. That has to be one of the most understanding posts I've ever seen from a non-autistic person. And thanks for listening and making an effort to understand. That's more than most people do.

 

[CelticRose]

I mostly agree with you but I think it's more than just genetics since the majority of children diagnosed with autism are boys.

Fixed that for you.

It used to be believed that autism was strictly confined to males, but now the medical community has come to realize that due to the inherent social differences between males and females, women with autism "present" differently.

Unfortunately, many doctors either still believe that only males can be autistic or haven't been trained to recognize autism in females, so females are often misdiagnosed.

 

[Damien Evans]

Of what I have seen so far, Autism seems to be among other things , a result of leaving children under stranger's care when they need parental love most.
Children feel neglected and they withdraw unto themselves.
Mental trauma rewires brain cells at growing stage and the result is withdrawn children who we have termed as Autistic.
Most of you might not agree but this is my personal feeling.
Cure for Autism is giving complete love and care to children all through their growing years.

That's not even wrong.

 

[LukeB]

I've been shopping around for an excuse for my crippling inability to get along with people, and hell this aspergers thing looked pretty good. Every other jackass had self-diagnosed themselves with it hopelessly polluting the word to the point of meaningless in general conversation, pretty much anyone qualified for it!

Alas though, it seems to really fit in requires a willingness to whine endlessly. Seems far to much work. I'm going to stick with just being misanthropic and come the end of civilization when we emerge from our bedrooms and basements, when all the normals have been incinerated by nuclear explosions because they were foolishly outside talking to other people (ugh), we will have a mighty but incredably awkward battle for dominance over the shattered remains of the cities!

 

[Damien Evans]

I've been shopping around for an excuse for my crippling inability to get along with people, and hell this aspergers thing looked pretty good. Every other jackass had self-diagnosed themselves with it hopelessly polluting the word to the point of meaningless in general conversation, pretty much anyone qualified for it!

Alas though, it seems to really fit in requires a willingness to whine endlessly. Seems far to much work. I'm going to stick with just being misanthropic and come the end of civilization when we emerge from our bedrooms and basements, when all the normals have been incinerated by nuclear explosions because they were foolishly outside talking to other people (ugh), we will have a mighty but incredably awkward battle for dominance over the shattered remains of the cities!

Well, you certainly have Jackass down pat.

 

[Jr1985]

Fixed that for you.

It used to be believed that autism was strictly confined to males, but now the medical community has come to realize that due to the inherent social differences between males and females, women with autism "present" differently.

Unfortunately, many doctors either still believe that only males can be autistic or haven't been trained to recognize autism in females, so females are often misdiagnosed.

This.

Also, maybe autism is x-linked, like colour blindness?

Another possibility is that some researchers, such as Simon Baron-Cohen, think autism is a form of "extreme maleness". So males, being male, are more likely to show extreme maleness?

 

[Philosaur]

I've been shopping around for an excuse for my crippling inability to get along with people, and hell this aspergers thing looked pretty good. Every other jackass had self-diagnosed themselves with it hopelessly polluting the word to the point of meaningless in general conversation, pretty much anyone qualified for it!

Alas though, it seems to really fit in requires a willingness to whine endlessly. Seems far to much work. I'm going to stick with just being misanthropic and come the end of civilization when we emerge from our bedrooms and basements, when all the normals have been incinerated by nuclear explosions because they were foolishly outside talking to other people (ugh), we will have a mighty but incredably awkward battle for dominance over the shattered remains of the cities!

I'll give a 4/10 for effort and a 2/10 for effectiveness. Trolling takes practice, subtlety, and creativity.

To be honest, I don't think you have what it takes.

 

[Mark6]

If you choose not to participate in this event, Mr. Blaylock, then that is your choice, but please do not belittle those who choose to participate. Attitudes like yours are exactly what we are speaking out against, i.e., those who assume that we can just "get over ourselves" and act like everyone else. We can't. For example, no amount of "attitude adjustment" is going to enable me to be able to follow a conversation when there are more than 2 other people involved.

BTW, I am no "whiny parasite". I have a job, and I do not receive any kind of disability funding. I manage to pay my own way even though I am consistently underemployed and have trouble keeping a job because a) I am incapable of making social chitchat, which seems to be more important to employers than doing the actual job, and b) I have so much difficulty communicating with so-called "normal" people that it's almost like we're speaking 2 different languages even though we both speak English. Yet when I lose yet another job I don't moan that I'm being "oppressed" -- I pick myself up and go find another job.

So what exactly do you intend to say on your "Asperger speak out Day"?

I am an Aspie too. I too cannot follow a conversation with more than two people (or a play, for that matter -- theater is utterly wasted on me), and politically I almost never agree with Bob Blaylock, but in this case I side with him. I am different, but it does not make me oppressed. At least, I do not feel oppressed. I know there are things in life I can't do -- at least not the way neurotypical people do them, -- but I found ways to compensate. If anyone, I want to speak to other Aspies -- to share coping startegies I had learned. And I have.

 

[Uncayimmy]

So what exactly do you intend to say on your "Asperger speak out Day"?

I am an Aspie too. I too cannot follow a conversation with more than two people (or a play, for that matter -- theater is utterly wasted on me), and politically I almost never agree with Bob Blaylock, but in this case I side with him. I am different, but it does not make me oppressed. At least, I do not feel oppressed. I know there are things in life I can't do -- at least not the way neurotypical people do them, -- but I found ways to compensate. If anyone, I want to speak to other Aspies -- to share coping startegies I had learned. And I have.

I don't want to bring this thread too far astray, but there's a question I've been meaning to ask. I've known a few people with Asperger's personally. One is an activist of sorts and gives presentations. He's also a musician, and that is what we mostly discuss. He's shared countless stories of the lousy situations he's encountered and the poor treatment from band leaders.

During these discussions, many people (not just me) have tried to explain to him how his behavior has been a major contributing factor. In many cases it involves his difficulty in understanding communication and communicating himself (at least from our perspective). Invariably he refuses to acknowledge that it plays a part.

So, how do you (or anyone else) react when someone tells you that a given situation seems to have been negatively affected by the atypical (for lack of a better word) interaction associated with Asperger's?

From my own personal perspective, I recognize in myself that I have (again, for lack of a better term) alpha male tendencies in that I can be more aggressive than average and exude confidence that can be taken for arrogance. I'm willing to consider and accept it when people tell me I'm being too aggressive or too arrogant. I may not actually care given the circumstances , but I'm willing to recognize that my perception of myself does not correspond with that of others.

 

[Jr1985]

I don't want to bring this thread too far astray, but there's a question I've been meaning to ask. I've known a few people with Asperger's personally. One is an activist of sorts and gives presentations. He's also a musician, and that is what we mostly discuss. He's shared countless stories of the lousy situations he's encountered and the poor treatment from band leaders.

During these discussions, many people (not just me) have tried to explain to him how his behavior has been a major contributing factor. In many cases it involves his difficulty in understanding communication and communicating himself (at least from our perspective). Invariably he refuses to acknowledge that it plays a part.

So, how do you (or anyone else) react when someone tells you that a given situation seems to have been negatively affected by the atypical (for lack of a better word) interaction associated with Asperger's?

From my own personal perspective, I recognize in myself that I have (again, for lack of a better term) alpha male tendencies in that I can be more aggressive than average and exude confidence that can be taken for arrogance. I'm willing to consider and accept it when people tell me I'm being too aggressive or too arrogant. I may not actually care given the circumstances , but I'm willing to recognize that my perception of myself does not correspond with that of others.

Well I think it depends on the situation. If I said something seemingly innocent, and someone was really offended by it, then I would apologise and try to explain what I meant. I would also learn from the situation that the statement was offensive and wouldn't say it again.

On the other hand, sometimes a persons reaction seem irrational, like being offended at the truth (I don't mean calling someone fat), such as "evolution is established as fact, whereas creationism is hokum". Or some people can detect that I am "odd" and may avoid me simply for being "different". In these two cases, I don't really stop behaving that way, as I think the problem lies with the other person.

I can also come across as being a bit blunt sometimes, and some people may be offended. Possibly because if an NT is blunt, it's becasue they may be intentionally trying to offend someone? I suppose I try to tone this down, as well as other "odd" behaviours, and make the correct amount of eye contact, etc. But having to constantly act "normal" at work, etc can be really exhausting, so sometimes I just say "to hell with it" and act as weird and random as I like.

Basically, I think it works both ways. So people with AS should be willing to reign in their behaviour a little - making sure they shower, don't tell people they are fat, don't interrupt people, etc. But NT's should be willing to meet us half way, and accept that if someone with AS isn't making the right amount of eye contact it's because it's uncomfortable, not because they are lying (for instance).

I think some people with AS may think that some NT behaviour can seem silly and irrational, yet they are the ones being told to change their bahaviour, so why should they? Or what makes NT behaviour appropriate and Aspie behaviour inappropriate, just because more people are NT? My view on that is "when in Rome".

 

[CelticRose]

I don't want to bring this thread too far astray...

The boycott was yesterday (and seems to have been largely ignored -- yay!), so let the thread go where it will.

I've known a few people with Asperger's personally. One is an activist of sorts and gives presentations. He's also a musician, and that is what we mostly discuss. He's shared countless stories of the lousy situations he's encountered and the poor treatment from band leaders.

During these discussions, many people (not just me) have tried to explain to him how his behavior has been a major contributing factor. In many cases it involves his difficulty in understanding communication and communicating himself (at least from our perspective). Invariably he refuses to acknowledge that it plays a part.

So, how do you (or anyone else) react when someone tells you that a given situation seems to have been negatively affected by the atypical (for lack of a better word) interaction associated with Asperger's?

From my own personal perspective, I recognize in myself that I have (again, for lack of a better term) alpha male tendencies in that I can be more aggressive than average and exude confidence that can be taken for arrogance. I'm willing to consider and accept it when people tell me I'm being too aggressive or too arrogant. I may not actually care given the circumstances , but I'm willing to recognize that my perception of myself does not correspond with that of others.

Personally, if someone tells me that my behavior is incorrect and is willing to explain to me exactly how it is incorrect and how I should behave in the future, then I'm usually willing to correct my behavior provided that my principles won't be violated by doing so.

The problem is usually that people are unwilling to a) tell me that I'm doing something wrong and b) help me to understand the situation. Try as I might, I can't read minds and I can't learn from my mistakes if I don't know that I'm making them in the first place.

I do tend to do my own thing -- see my signature -- but I also strive to create a balance between being myself and being socially acceptable, at least in public. As Jr1985 said, it can be exhausting to act "normal" and deal with social situations. When I'm home, I drop the act entirely.

 

[Father Dagon]

While there are certainly some "myths" about people with autism, there are "myths" about every group. Stamping out myths is a laudable goal. The "dangerous" myth is a new one on me.

Oh, the dangerous myth is kinda old. The latest myth however is so new that few people have heard about it. It stems from the film Simple Simon and says that autisic people are silly dorks.

When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime), they were at first considered to be very rude people. Perhaps in some places they still are, but social discourse spread the awareness of conflicting expectations of what is 'polite'.

But did the asian immigrants adapt? Thomas Sowell points out in White Liberals and Black Rednecks that the irish immigrants was "uncivilized" so the catholic church had to "civilize" them.

 

[jiggeryqua]

But did the asian immigrants adapt?

Well I can't speak for every single one of them...but I'd hope that everyone involved adapted to the situation. An expectation that immigrants will 'adapt' to an unmoving culture (that, of course, is constantly adapting itself) seems a little unsettling to me, though that may not have been what you meant.

Of course, the analogy falls apart with aspergians, it's not one culture meeting another, it's more like the slow, steady progress of, for example, lobby groups for blind and partially-sighted people, who have obliged local councils in the UK to provide tactile paving signals (indicating dropped kerbs and such) but are still struggling for a national standard which would allow them to move around the country as confidently as sighted people.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Oh, the dangerous myth is kinda old. The latest myth however is so new that few people have heard about it. It stems from the film Simple Simon and says that autisic people are silly dorks.

In regards to the dangerous myth, I guess it involves in what circles you travel. I never heard it. As I said, one person I know with Asperger's is a spokesman who gives presentations for a large west coast city's activist group. I've heard a lot about it from him, but I've never heard him cite the dangerous one before.

As for the movie, I think that's a result a people being overly sensitive. It's just a movie. I watched countless episodes of Leave it to Beaver, but I never once expected my wife to bring me a glass of lemonade while I mowed the lawn or greet me at the door wearing a dress and jewelry.

 

[Mark6]

So, how do you (or anyone else) react when someone tells you that a given situation seems to have been negatively affected by the atypical (for lack of a better word) interaction associated with Asperger's?

Pretty much what Jr1985 and Celtic Rose said. I do my best to correct my behaviour. Often it means consciously doing what NT people do unconsciously, like maintain eye contact. If for some reason I fail, that's life. I never get aggressive and into denial, the way your musician friend seems to.

 

[Mark6]

When Ugandan asian immigrants arrived in Britain (fleeing Idi Amin's regime),

Since when is Uganda in Asia?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Since when is Uganda in Asia?

I don't know whether you are being facecious, or you are genuinely unaware of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Asians_from_Uganda