Speak up for autism on Nov. 1st

[CelticRose]

I've never heard of people not believing adults can have autism. Do they think children outgrow it or die before they reach adulthood?

No, but you'd think so the way the medical community and researchers act sometimes. As I said above:

The main focus in the medical community seems to be on identifying autism in children and providing them with support and accommodations, where necessary, through their school years. However, once they reach adulthood, all that support evaporates. It's like people don't think that autistic adults exist -- that they magically grow out of it somehow. Adults have difficulty getting diagnosed as well since most psychologists who treat autism specialize in treating children. On one autism forum I used to frequent, people would ask for volunteers for studies on autism, but the cutoff age was nearly always 21 -- they didn't want to hear from anyone older than that. When the adults on the forum asked why no one wanted to hear from them, they were not given a response.

Just to be clear, I don't actually think that people don't believe that adults can have autism. More likely, they tend to forget (accidentally or on purpose) about the adults because they don't have the "cute factor" or parents with money that children do.

 

[Damien Evans]

Why? I've only heard the term a couple of months ago.

I think it's cute.

Not because of any connotations or anything. I just don't like the way it sounds in my head.

 

[CelticRose]

Not because of any connotations or anything. I just don't like the way it sounds in my head.

Cheer up -- it's going away soon. When the DSM V comes out Asperger's will be lumped in with autism.

 

[Jr1985]

In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise.

I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler.

Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

King Arthur: Bloody peasant!

Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?​

Since you haven't been officially diagnosed, it's safe to assume that if you have AS, it is probably very mild. Not everyone is as lucky as you, a lot of people with autism have trouble getting jobs, so that they can contribute to society. They also experience bullying as a result of being different.

Perhaps if NTs would engage their frontal lobes to override their primitive animal instincts, that seem to activate when they encounter someone "different", autistics wouldn't have anything to whine about.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I cannot make adjustments to my perception based on something I do not know.

Well, the point was right there, but you seem to have missed it. You can adjust your expectations...in light of a mature awareness that 'rude' means 'not following the unwritten rules of my family/class/town/country'. You can adjust your responses. Indeed, to some degree you can make adjustments to your perception because you know there's plenty of things you do not know.

But let's get beyond that, for fear of reinforcing the erroneous ideas some posters appear to have - that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that.

 

[Jr1985]

Who is this "we" that you speak of? My nephew has severe autism. He's 10 and can't use a fork and you're darn right I want a cure.

Does he? If you search for "in my language" on youtube you will see a girl with autism, who cant even speak, and she doesn't want a cure.

If we cured autism I wonder if that would eliminate even the positive traits. Like honestly, loyalty, attention to detail, etc. People like Einstein and Alan Turing, who invented one of the first computers and helped break the enigma code, had autistic traits. Clusters of autism are found in areas like Silicon Valley, where technical ability is advantageous. So without autism genes we may not have the technology we have today. Perhaps we'd still be sitting around a fire in a cave, chatting about the weather...

Of course, I would fully support anyones decision to be cured of autism if they felt they really wanted it, if/when it's discovered.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Does he? If you search for "in my language" on youtube you will see a girl with autism, who cant even speak, and she doesn't want a cure.

If we cured autism I wonder if that would eliminate even the positive traits. Like honestly, loyalty, attention to detail, etc. People like Einstein and Alan Turing, who invented one of the first computers and helped break the enigma code, had autistic traits. Clusters of autism are found in areas like Silicon Valley, where technical ability is advantageous. So without autism genes we may not have the technology we have today. Perhaps we'd still be sitting around a fire in a cave, chatting about the weather...

Of course, I would fully support anyones decision to be cured of autism if they felt they really wanted it, if/when it's discovered.

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims. This site offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?

 

[Damien Evans]

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims. This site offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?

How does "unable to care for herself" = "someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?"

 

[Skwinty]

... that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that.

That is certainly not the way I think about it.

My point is:

Were I to be in a public place and someone was rude to me specifically,and by rude I mean,

Rudeness "constituted by deviation from whatever counts as politic in a given social context, is inherently confrontational and disruptive to social equilibrium" (Kasper, 1990, p. 208). Rudeness, particularly with respect to speech, is necessarily confrontational at its core."

my initial reaction is to walk away as I don't actively seek confrontation.
That of course means I do not try to find a reason why the person is the way they are.

My point is: Why should I make the effort if I do not know the person, I will probably never see them again .

On the other hand, if I knew the person and I knew of their condition then I will certainly adjust my perception.

 

[Uncayimmy]

How does "unable to care for herself" = "someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?"

Why are you asking that question?

I wrote my statement very carefully. The requirement was "if there's a 'cure' available." JR1985 referred to someone who is not self-sufficient saying that she didn't want a "cure." If such a cure becomes available and she chooses not to partake, I'm saying that creates an ethical dilemma because in effect the person will be choosing to continue not to be self-sufficient.

 

[Jr1985]

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

Well unfortunately I'm bit aware of any scientific study, but I can provide a quote from Tony Attwood, who is a psychologist specializing in AS.

"Tony's Perspective

From my clinical experience I consider that children and adults with Aspergers Syndrome have a different, not defective, way of thinking.

The person usually has a strong desire to seek knowledge, truth and perfection with a different set of priorities than would be expected with other people. There is also a different perception of situations and sensory experiences. The overriding priority may be to solve a problem rather than satisfy the social or emotional needs of others.

The person values being creative rather than co-operative.

The person with Aspergers syndrome may perceive errors that are not apparent to others, giving considerable attention to detail, rather than noticing the “big picture”.

The person is usually renowned for being direct, speaking their mind and being honest and determined and having a strong sense of social justice.

The person may actively seek and enjoy solitude, be a loyal friend and have a distinct sense of humour.

However, the person with Aspergers Syndrome can have difficulty with the management and expression of emotions.

Children and adults with Aspergers syndrome may have levels of anxiety, sadness or anger that indicate a secondary mood disorder. There may also be problems expressing the degree of love and affection expected by others. Fortunately, we now have successful psychological treatment programs to help manage and express emotions."

From Tony Attwood's website.

I can say from personal experience that I, and other people with AS have difficulty lying. Some people can be brutally honest, e.g. Answering "yes" when asked "does this dress make me look fat?". I think it partially comes from not understanding social "rules".

Also, I don't like to say one thing, and mean another, or pretend to be nice to someone while back stabbing them.

I realise of course that this is just anecdotal, and therefore unreliable. But another positive trait that I do have evidence for is that we are less likely to see the purpose behind events in our lives. In other words, we are less likely to make up fairytales, such as "God did it" or "it was meant to be", to explain things.

www(dot)scientificamerican(dot)com/blog/post.cfm?id=people-with-aspergers-less-likely-t-2010-05-29

The person to whom you are referring is, I believe, Amanda Baggs. There's quite a bit of controversy surrounding her claims offers some details noting that she was high functioning well into her teens, abused hallucinogens, and proclaimed to have other mental disorders.

I wasn't aware of this, interesting...

That controversy aside, there's an an elephant in the room. I'll probably catch a raft of **** for saying this, but if someone who is unable to care for herself and requires society to essentially keep her alive, then if there's a "cure" available, society faces an ethical dilemma. Does society have an obligation provide care for someone who chooses not to be self-sufficient?

That thought had occurred to me after I made my post... and I would have to agree with you there. I'm not sure that it's fair for someone, who needs constant care from family, etc, to stay that way if there is an alternative. I imagine it puts immense pressure on her family, or whoever cares for her.

 

[jiggeryqua]

That is certainly not the way I think about it.

My point is: Why should I make the effort if I do not know the person, I will probably never see them again .

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua
... that the only impact of Asperger's is to make some folk unlikeable, and that we seek legislation to make people put up with that.

(my added emphasis)

Apparantly you do think about it that way, or why else use that example? I do not believe any autist is seeking legislation that would oblige you to socialise with anyone at all. Remarkably, we're rather more concerned with employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc. Would you care to address those issues at all?

 

[jiggeryqua]

I wasn't aware that honesty and loyalty were traits of autism. Do you have a citation for that?

let me google that for you

There's a little more to skepticism than a knee-jerk rejection of ideas you don't like or the refusal to do research of your own when you'd rather hang on to treasured, but ignorant, opinions.

 

[Uncayimmy]

let me google that for you

There's a little more to skepticism than a knee-jerk rejection of ideas you don't like or the refusal to do research of your own when you'd rather hang on to treasured, but ignorant, opinions.

Can you show me where I rejected any ideas? I asked the person making an assertion to provide evidence, which is standard practice. Why should I be obligated to do the research for someone else? At least that person provided an expert opinion. You, by contrast, simply told me to Google it. All I see on the first page are a bunch of anecdotes.

Not to be pedantic, but I believe there is a difference between having difficulty lying and being honest. A cursory glance at some of these non-scholarly links did not address lies of omission, which is allowing someone to believe something that is not true. They mostly centered around apparent difficulty lying and what some term inappropriate honesty. I didn't see where other aspects of honesty were discussed such as infidelity and theft.

I'm not forming a conclusion either way. I'm simply asking for evidence. So far I haven't seen any scholarly works regarding honesty or a clear definition of what it entails.

I will also note that you did not address loyalty. I suppose I'm supposed to Google that as well. I tried. No scholarly articles. I suppose it's plausible since those with Asperger's find difficulty dealing with change. Is that really loyalty? For example, if someone stays a job they hate because they are scared of going on job interviews, are they loyal? It's an interesting philosophical debate.

Thing is, I really don't want to make generalizations about anyone without a reasonable statistical basis. I really don't care if the characteristic is good or bad. I also don't like seeing attributes receiving a "positive spin" just to make a group look good. Therefore, I inquired. It is up to those making claims to justify their positions. Right now, I have no opinion either way.

 

[Skwinty]

(my added emphasis)

Apparantly you do think about it that way, or why else use that example? I do not believe any autist is seeking legislation that would oblige you to socialise with anyone at all. Remarkably, we're rather more concerned with employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc. Would you care to address those issues at all?

I don't think that Aspergian or autistics are trying to get legislation in place to force people to like them.

I agree and empathise with the issues sufferers face wrt employment opportunities, workplace harassment, access to services etc.

I do not have any personal experience with the condition, so I am ignorant of the symptons across the spectrum.

I would be hacked off if I suffered from the condition and couldn't get a job or access to public services because of it.

What would you suggest is the best way for neurotypicals to assist in the quest for better opportunities in life?

 

[Jr1985]

Can you show me where I rejected any ideas? I asked the person making an assertion to provide evidence, which is standard practice. Why should I be obligated to do the research for someone else? At least that person provided an expert opinion. You, by contrast, simply told me to Google it. All I see on the first page are a bunch of anecdotes.

Not to be pedantic, but I believe there is a difference between having difficulty lying and being honest. A cursory glance at some of these non-scholarly links did not address lies of omission, which is allowing someone to believe something that is not true. They mostly centered around apparent difficulty lying and what some term inappropriate honesty. I didn't see where other aspects of honesty were discussed such as infidelity and theft.

I'm not forming a conclusion either way. I'm simply asking for evidence. So far I haven't seen any scholarly works regarding honesty or a clear definition of what it entails.

I will also note that you did not address loyalty. I suppose I'm supposed to Google that as well. I tried. No scholarly articles. I suppose it's plausible since those with Asperger's find difficulty dealing with change. Is that really loyalty? For example, if someone stays a job they hate because they are scared of going on job interviews, are they loyal? It's an interesting philosophical debate.

Thing is, I really don't want to make generalizations about anyone without a reasonable statistical basis. I really don't care if the characteristic is good or bad. I also don't like seeing attributes receiving a "positive spin" just to make a group look good. Therefore, I inquired. It is up to those making claims to justify their positions. Right now, I have no opinion either way.

Well I found this -

Abstract
The present study explored the relations among lie-telling ability, false belief understanding, and verbal mental age. We found that children with autism spectrum disorder (ASD), like typically developing children, can and do tell antisocial lies (to conceal a transgression) and white lies (in politeness settings). However, children with ASD were less able than typically developing children to cover up their initial lie; that is, children with ASD had difficulty exercising semantic leakage control—the ability to maintain consistency between their initial lie and subsequent statements. Furthermore, unlike in typically developing children, lie-telling ability in children with ASD was not found to be related to their false belief understanding. Future research should examine the underlying processes by which children with ASD tell lies.

Exploring the Ability to Deceive in Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders

Annie S. Li, Elizabeth A. Kelley, Angela D. Evans and Kang Lee


So people with AS can lie, they're just bad at it. I suppose some of us realise that it's easier to be honest, since we are so bad at telling lies? I know from my experience I can tell lies, but I really don't like it, and prefer to be honest.

As for loyalty, nothing came up on pubmed, but it's possible it's related to our difficulty with lying? If you don't like lying, then it's probably difficult for you to be really friendly to someone's face, and then backstab them?

Having read Tony Attwood's books, etc, I suppose I just attributed these characteristics in myself to AS. Maybe I'm just a nice person Then again, having read about other people's experiences, I'd be inclinded to believe it's true.

AS for trying to put a "positive spin" to try and make us look "good", when you live with something like AS it's very easy to get depressed about all of the negatives that come with it, such as loneliness and isolation. Especially when some people view autism as a terrible tragedy (maybe it is for the extreme end of the spectrum?). However, since it's something I'm stuck with I try to focus on the positives, to make life a bit easier. I don't want to see myself as a tragedy, and I do believe there are positives to having AS. Although, I am well aware that it isn't all "good" and if some autistic people want cured then so be it. If they ever invented a cure for autism I would really have to think about whether I wanted to take it or not. It wouldn't be as easy a decision as say taking a cure for cancer, because I feel AS is a fundemental part of who I am, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Therefore, I inquired.

Honest enquiry, from someone who wanted to know? Wouldn't that have involved some simple searching of your own? As opposed to 'Pfft, prove it' on an internet forum? I mean, if I really wanted to know something, I'd put some effort into finding out - and if I just wanted to hang on to my position in an argument, I'd insist that someone else did the work, with no certain knowledge that they would have received the communicated request and no earthly idea when they might respond. Maybe that's just me...

My apologies, by the way, it's really quite discourteous of me to respond to those parts of your posts quoted by others while keeping you on ignore.

 

[jiggeryqua]

What would you suggest is the best way for neurotypicals to assist in the quest for better opportunities in life?

In addition to my earlier post regarding the assessment of applicants for job vacancies, with particular reference to interview processes, might I respectfully suggest 'education'? I'm not proposing that 'Autism Studies' squeeze the Literacy Hour out of the primary curriculum, it's hardly a priority, but those neurotypicals in this thread whose enquiries are honest might easily spare sufficient time to find all the information they require online.

I repeat that I didn't come here with a crusading purpose, a manifesto or an 'emphasis on excessive entitlement'. (What ever happened to TubbaBubba, by the way? It surely can't have taken this long to come up with answers to all the questions he prompted. I do hope he's alright.) I don't consider myself an expert on autism of any degree, I merely experience it. I certainly don't set myself up as any kind of spokesperson for anyone other than myself. Again, there are plenty of experts, and self-appointed autism spokespeople, online if you care to seek them out.

 

[Aitch]

In other words, my level of acceptance into society and the amount of respect society shows me, is directly proportional to my attitude and behaviour.

So, not in favour of a ******* Speak up for ******* Tourettes, you ******* *******! then?

 

[Uncayimmy]

Well I found this -


Exploring the Ability to Deceive in Children with Autism Spectrum Disorders

Annie S. Li, Elizabeth A. Kelley, Angela D. Evans and Kang Lee

Thanks again.

So people with AS can lie, they're just bad at it. I suppose some of us realise that it's easier to be honest, since we are so bad at telling lies? I know from my experience I can tell lies, but I really don't like it, and prefer to be honest.

I've had some personal experience with those with Asperger's, and I find your experience consistent. It does pose a few interesting questions. I'm sure there's a spectrum for how comfortable people feel about lying. Since to my knowledge no one has ever been "cured" of autism, we really can't say that it's harder morally for them to lie since that's such a personal issue. For example, how can you and I compare our moral resistance?

From what I've read those with autism have difficulty lying and seem to recognize it. Therefore, it seems they are less likely to lie. Does that make them more honest? In one sense, yes. But in the sense of being honest in moral character, I don't think it does. There's a saying that goes, “The trite saying that honesty is the best policy has met with the just criticism that honesty is not policy. The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.” I think of an honest man as doing the right thing even when he knows he won't be caught.

As for loyalty, nothing came up on pubmed, but it's possible it's related to our difficulty with lying? If you don't like lying, then it's probably difficult for you to be really friendly to someone's face, and then backstab them?

That very well could be. There's also the resistance to change, right?

Having read Tony Attwood's books, etc, I suppose I just attributed these characteristics in myself to AS. Maybe I'm just a nice person Then again, having read about other people's experiences, I'd be inclinded to believe it's true.

To be fair, who's going to write articles and books portraying those with AS in a negative light? There's a natural tendency to look for the good, so we see articles telling us that without people with AS, we'd have missed out on technological advances (one article I read said we'd still be reading by candlelight). In principle I don't disagree with the larger premise. It's rare to find people highly successful in one area who are also well-balanced. An obsession about toasters is not all that productive. Obsession about music gives us Mozart.

AS for trying to put a "positive spin" to try and make us look "good", when you live with something like AS it's very easy to get depressed about all of the negatives that come with it, such as loneliness and isolation. Especially when some people view autism as a terrible tragedy (maybe it is for the extreme end of the spectrum?). However, since it's something I'm stuck with I try to focus on the positives, to make life a bit easier. I don't want to see myself as a tragedy, and I do believe there are positives to having AS. Although, I am well aware that it isn't all "good" and if some autistic people want cured then so be it. If they ever invented a cure for autism I would really have to think about whether I wanted to take it or not. It wouldn't be as easy a decision as say taking a cure for cancer, because I feel AS is a fundemental part of who I am, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.

I certainly respect what you're saying. Loneliness and isolation can be very painful. Whatever hand you're dealt is the hand you have to play, so look for the best ways to play that hand. I could certainly see why someone would resist a change that would drastically change who they are and how they perceive the world.

This discussion (at least in my mind) touches on a broader subject we've seen bandied about over the years. As new "disorders" are recognized, there's the reaction of, "Well, back when I was coming up those people were just <whatever>. They didn't have a disorder." ADHD comes to mind as a good example.

I think time and technology, especially the Internet, will reveal more and more groups like that. In my own experience I have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome. I've discussed it here and with people I know. Several have commented that they themselves or others they know seem to have the same thing. They didn't know such a label existed (if they seek treatment, it's often misdiagnosed as insomnia by general practitioners). Most of society considers us night owls who just prefer to go to bed late and don't like getting up in the morning, even though for many of us it can cause practical problems in life. In a way I am faced with changing a fundamental part of who I have been for the last 44 years. The prospect is daunting, and it's going to require a lot of effort to make the change and keep it going.

I can only imagine the backlash if somebody starts as DSPS foundation to advocate reasonable accommodations for us. Obviously, if a business has to serve customers at a certain time in the morning, it may be unreasonable to require them to allow somebody to come in later. However, if the job could be done just as well from 10-7 as it can from 8-5, why not let us keep those hours?

The natural reaction will be, "Just set a bunch of alarms and get your ass out of bed!" The reality is that it can be extremely difficult to wake up. More importantly, we end up running a sleep deficit during the week, which is bad for health (heart disease, diabetes, obesity, depression). Those who are "sleep typical" cannot grasp what we go through. It's not a choice.

I'm sure there are lots of other "disorders" out there. There are probably lots of clusters of similar characteristics people have that we simply haven't recognized yet. It's all very fascinating.