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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Or the strap was cut while she was still alive and before she was flipped on her back. Either way, It makes no sense to claim the body was staged when the bra was cut off before the body was in its final resting spot. It makes even less sense to turn her on her side, when you can just cut it in the front. So the logical conclusion is Meredith was face down on the floor when the bra was cut. If there is no evidence in the blood or the blood on the body to support her being face down when the bra was cut, then it means it was cut before the stabbing.


There were bloody aspiration marks on her bra though. She was stabbed before the bra was removed. I think he tried to remove the bra by pulling on it and got frustrated and moved her onto her side real quick and cut it off. His DNA was found on the front of the bra between the cups where he would have then pulled it off of her while she was on her back again.

There is also a lot of blood on the neck cuff of her blue jacket. She was probably wearing that also when stabbed, explaining all the blood in that location.
 
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There were bloody aspiration marks on her bra though. She was stabbed before the bra was removed. I think he tried to remove the bra by pulling on it and got frustrated and moved her onto her side real quick and cut it off. His DNA was found on the front of the bra between the cups where he would have then pulled it off of her while she was on her back again.

There is also a lot of blood on the neck cuff of her blue jacket. She was probably wearing that also when stabbed, explaining all the blood in that location.

There was blood on the fastener? Rudy left bloody hand prints. There is no way to get all that blood on your hands and not leave it on the clothes. If his dna is anywhere on the bra or inside her without blood. Then it got there before the stabbing. Even mignini wants you to believe that Rudy was trying to rape Meredith and knox jumped in to help. Which means the attempted rape would have had to happen before the stabbing. Can't rape someone with their clothes on. How much blood was on her underwear? Any bloody hand prints on her body?
 
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I don't see there being any other explanation then Rudy continuing on to sexually assault MK after she was already bleeding. This can be seen by the great deal of blood by the wardrobe and moving around the corner from it. The amount of time MK was alive after the fatal neck wound is relatively short. There is blood near the wardrobe, aspiration marks on the wardrobe doors and finger marks on the inside of it. She was at the wardrobe before she was on her back with a pillow underneath her hips the way she was finally found.

The towels that were brought by Rudy were bloody, the comforter that was placed over her had severe blood marks also. These were all found where she was found lying on her back with her clothes removed and the pillow under her hips.

Photo of blood on the duvet:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/duvet.html

I think she was certainly moved onto her back (or possibly moved into that position herself). But does that necessarily mean the sexual assault continued? If we're to believe Rudy that he went to get towels to try and staunch the bleeding, he may have rolled her over to get better access to the wounds (which, after all, would have been hidden if she were lying on her side). The blood near the wardrobe just shows that she moved or was moved, but says nothing about whether she was being assaulted at that point; the blood on the towels and the duvet similarly just shows they were used/thrown over her after the wounds were made. I can't see that any of that proves the sexual assault was continuing at that stage.

I know Massei believed the pillow was placed where it was to facilitate the sexual assault, but I didn't find that part of his argument all that convincing: for one thing there were a bunch of other things lying under Meredith's body too, IIRC, not just the pillow; and for another grabbing a pillow seems like a somewhat random thing to do mid-assault. Isn't it possible the objects that were on the floor fell there during the struggle near the bed/bedside table (just as the lamp fell on the floor)?
 
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I think she was certainly moved onto her back (or possibly moved into that position herself). But does that necessarily mean the sexual assault continued? If we're to believe Rudy that he went to get towels to try and staunch the bleeding, he may have rolled her over to get better access to the wounds (which, after all, would have been hidden if she were lying on her side). The blood near the wardrobe just shows that she moved or was moved, but says nothing about whether she was being assaulted at that point.

I know Massei believed the pillow was placed where it was to facilitate the sexual assault, but I didn't find that part of his argument all that convincing: for one thing there were a bunch of other things lying under Meredith's body too, IIRC, not just the pillow; and for another grabbing a pillow seems like a somewhat random thing to do mid-assault. Isn't it possible the objects that were on the floor fell there during the struggle near the bed/bedside table (just as the lamp fell on the floor)?


Two indicators of the sexual assault are the pillow under her hips and her clothes being removed. You believe the pillow may be there by accident.

In your scenario her clothes would have been removed before Rudy realised how bad the wound is.

Why are there aspiration marks on the bra before it was removed.
Why is there so much blood on the neck cuff of the blue jacket.
Why are all the clothes found in a circle around where she was found lying.
Why are there blood marks on the cuffs of her socks.

How could she be aspirating blood but he doesn't think it is serious and cuts off the bra anyway?
 
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There was blood on the fastener? Rudy left bloody hand prints. There is no way to get all that blood on your hands and not leave it on the clothes. If his dna is anywhere on the bra or inside her without blood. Then it got there before the stabbing. Even mignini wants you to believe that Rudy was trying to rape Meredith and knox jumped in to help. Which means the attempted rape would have had to happen before the stabbing. Can't rape someone with their clothes on.

I think you make some very good points there, Chris. If Rudy had removed Meredith's jeans/underwear after the stabbing, wouldn't he have left more blood on both those items of clothing, as well as inside her body? Wouldn't there have been bloody marks from his hands on her body as well?
 
OK, you agree *. But he has to be discredited in the appeal or they are staying put ?

*on the futility of trying to incorporate parts of Curatolo's testimony into the defence case to form a new alibi.

OK - my original Q was not very clear perhaps.

But I'm struck by the failure to engage with the actual details of the appeal generally, relying instead on repetition of talking points and confused complaints about the case at large.

Curatolo's testimony (to which the certitude issue referred) places them away from RS' flat & close very to and observing the site of the murder.
Their (excited / agitated ?) behavior could indicate that the events that lead to the killing were already underway or being anticipated / prepared for.
Much more than this would be speculation on my part, there is plenty of debate on the various possibilities earlier in the thread.

My lack of certitude stems from the fact that until one of the killers comes clean we may never know precisely the sequence of events.

Unlike in the movies where the flashback at the end explains everything, the real world provides no such certainty.

A fact apparently lost on many of the 'skeptics' here - too much uncritical exposure to Hollywood / CSI obviously.

.


There is no need for certitude or even for certainty with regard to the sequence of the events of the murder. Establishing what happened is not essential -- some might say not even relevant -- to the defense's case.

The defense's job, obviously, is to establish that the evidence purported to suggest Amanda and Raffaele were involved in the crime is too weak to obtain a conviction. The defense already did that in the initial trial and they will do it again in the first appeal trial.

The issue is how to get the judges to be reasonable this time.
 
I think she was certainly moved onto her back (or possibly moved into that position herself). But does that necessarily mean the sexual assault continued? If we're to believe Rudy that he went to get towels to try and staunch the bleeding, he may have rolled her over to get better access to the wounds (which, after all, would have been hidden if she were lying on her side). The blood near the wardrobe just shows that she moved or was moved, but says nothing about whether she was being assaulted at that point; the blood on the towels and the duvet similarly just shows they were used/thrown over her after the wounds were made. I can't see that any of that proves the sexual assault was continuing at that stage.

I know Massei believed the pillow was placed where it was to facilitate the sexual assault, but I didn't find that part of his argument all that convincing: for one thing there were a bunch of other things lying under Meredith's body too, IIRC, not just the pillow; and for another grabbing a pillow seems like a somewhat random thing to do mid-assault. Isn't it possible the objects that were on the floor fell there during the struggle near the bed/bedside table (just as the lamp fell on the floor)?

I think that may be one of the few details Massei got right. I would not put any stock in Guede's story, which was the only possible story he could offer that did not make him responsible for the murder. The evidence shows that her throat was slashed when she was in front of the wardrobe, she was dragged face-down a couple of feet, rolled over, and sexually assaulted.
 
That's beautifully put.


I agree -- re RWVBWL. :)

Also saddening is the pointless extended trauma caused to the Kercher family by the bogus judicial process, and the further shock they will inevitably suffer when Amanda and Raffaele are ultimately vindicated. There are some who think they should be spared all this by everyone keeping quiet about the injustice, but of course it's no fault of Amanda and Raffaele that they should fight for the truth.

Meredith's family have been cruelly betrayed by the Perugia police and judiciary.


Well said, Antony.
 
I think you make some very good points there, Chris. If Rudy had removed Meredith's jeans/underwear after the stabbing, wouldn't he have left more blood on both those items of clothing, as well as inside her body? Wouldn't there have been bloody marks from his hands on her body as well?

The wounds could have very easily been made by a pocket knife. There have been some very good arguments presented about the knife. The assault/rape could have very easily happened before Rudy ever wielded the knife. First he beats her up, then he starts undressing her. He is having a hard time getting the bra off while she is still struggling. Pulls out knife. Cuts bra. Things get out of hand and thats when he stabs her.
 
Two indicators of the sexual assault are the pillow under her hips and her clothes being removed. You believe the pillow may be there by accident.

In your scenario her clothes would have been removed before Rudy realised how bad the wound is.

Why are there aspiration marks on the bra before it was removed.
Why is there so much blood on the neck cuff of the blue jacket.
Why are all the clothes found in a circle around where she was found lying.
Why are there blood marks on the cuffs of her socks.

How could she be aspirating blood but he doesn't think it is serious and cuts off the bra anyway?

I think he made the wounds in the process of cutting her bra/attempting to remove her T-shirt by rolling it up towards her neck, probably while he was standing behind her (she could either have been standing as well, forced to her knees or lying on her front). Since he was behind her, he wouldn't have been able to see what he was doing nor how deep were the wounds he was making. If the wounds were made in the process of cutting the bra and removing her top, the blood both under and on top of the bra would be explained.

I think the rest of her clothes could've been removed before the wounds were made. If you're holding a knife to someone's throat, the most difficult items of clothing to remove would be those on the top half of the person's body, since you would need to temporarily move the knife. It might also be the point at which the person would most likely fight back. Logically her jeans/underwear would be removed first, since they would be easier to remove and leave the attacker less vulnerable.

As I said, I think the pillow and the various other items on the floor found underneath Meredith's body may have been there as a result of the struggle. Did Rudy leave any bloody marks from his hands on/in her body? I thought Chris's point on that was a good one.
 
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Experts

Here is a "news" report on Amanda's latest works of art. For some reason I am reminded of that statement analysis fellow:
Jane: (Insert Dan Aykroyd quote here)
Just incredible.

These so-called experts' comments are so laughable it reminds of an old "definition" of an "expert"
To wit: How do you define an expert? The word must be parsed into its parts; X = has been and Spurt = Drip under pressure
 
On this, the 3rd anniversary of the murder of Meredith Kercher, may she rest in peace and may those who loved or love her find peace as well. MGBWY
 
There was blood on the fastener? Rudy left bloody hand prints. There is no way to get all that blood on your hands and not leave it on the clothes. If his dna is anywhere on the bra or inside her without blood. Then it got there before the stabbing. Even mignini wants you to believe that Rudy was trying to rape Meredith and knox jumped in to help. Which means the attempted rape would have had to happen before the stabbing. Can't rape someone with their clothes on. How much blood was on her underwear? Any bloody hand prints on her body?


Here is the photo Charlie just posted showing the aspiration marks on the bra:
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/bra.jpg

Rep 59. Rudy's DNA on the bra
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/selected_dna_results.pdf


My understanding is this DNA was found on the FRONT of the bra between the two cups. He would have pulled the bra off here after he cut it in the back.

Remember he went and got towels to stem the flow of her blood. He would have wiped his hand on the towels and they wouldn't have had a lot of blood on them.
 
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I agree. IIRC one of the defence experts suggested it was an assault which escalated gradually, and given Rudy's alleged previous behaviour and the fact he was most likely surprised in the house by Meredith returning, I think that's quite a likely scenario. It seems much more probable that, let's say, she screamed and he rushed over to try to silence her and things progressed from there, than that he suddenly decided to rush in and murder her on the spur of the moment.

Another thing I disagree with in Charlie's scenario is the length of time the attack would have lasted. Although it might be possible to say that the three neck wounds were made within a short space of time from one another, I can't see how it's possible to say how long the assault might have lasted before that, since there would have been no signs of it. IMO, it's more likely there was a fairly extended period of time before the wounds were made, that they were made at a particular point during the struggle (probably when he was behind her and trying to remove her bra) and that the assault stopped at that point once it was evident how seriously she was injured. Rudy fetching the towels also fits better with this scenario.

At any rate, I don't see how it's possible to rule out the possibility of a more gradual assault which led (perhaps unintentionally) to murder. For me, one of the major problems with an attack that was over by, let's say, 21:05 is that I don't believe Rudy would've hung around for nearly an hour afterwards to take the cell phones. Looking at the evidence over-all, Rudy's alleged previous behaviour and the way the attack most likely started (as an interrupted burglary, not an intentional rape and murder) an assault which became gradually more serious over a period of, say, 30-40 minutes seems at least as likely as a very short deliberate attack.

IIRC the autopsy report states MK had 46 bruises on her body - that seems like a lengthy and fierce fight by MK to me - not the relatively sudden, short and unprovoked attack in Charlie's scenario.
 
Rember he went and got towels to stem the flow of her blood. He would have wiped his hand on the towels and they wouldn't have had a lot of blood on them.

I have to say I find it even less likely that he would've stopped, run into the bathroom twice to get towels to staunch the bleeding, and only then assaulted her. I could perhaps buy that he continued initially and then stopped to get the towels. But then there would've been blood on his hands (as there would've been after handling the blood-soaked towels as well) and therefore bloody traces of the assault on her body.
 
IIRC the autopsy report states MK had 46 bruises on her body - that seems like a lengthy and fierce fight by MK to me - not the relatively sudden, short and unprovoked attack in Charlie's scenario.

That's a very good point. I agree, that would definitely seem to indicate a longer struggle.
 
IIRC the autopsy report states MK had 46 bruises on her body - that seems like a lengthy and fierce fight by MK to me - not the relatively sudden, short and unprovoked attack in Charlie's scenario.

Have you ever been it or witnessed a real fight?

A blow that only takes a fraction of a second will generate a bruise.
 
IIRC the autopsy report states MK had 46 bruises on her body - that seems like a lengthy and fierce fight by MK to me - not the relatively sudden, short and unprovoked attack in Charlie's scenario.

Thats the reason I believe the knife wasn't wielded until midway through the sexual assault. If the fight would have started with the knife there would be alot more cuts and alot less bruises.
 
Originally Posted by Onofarar
IIRC the autopsy report states MK had 46 bruises on her body - that seems like a lengthy and fierce fight by MK to me - not the relatively sudden, short and unprovoked attack in Charlie's scenario.


-----

That's a very good point. I agree, that would definitely seem to indicate a longer struggle.

You best go with Kestrels idea - the lack of defensive wounds or trace evidence under the fingernails is problematic to say the least.

But if its short & sharp starting at 9 why does it take 40/50 + minutes to pick up keys & phone.

That's a long time to hang around the scene after an unplanned murder - yet he still forgets to flush, or wipe his bloody prints.

Hard to sell to a jury.

ETA That noisy 'break-in' may have created more problems than it solved - by fixing the start of the attack at 9.

.
 
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I have to say I find it even less likely that he would've stopped, run into the bathroom twice to get towels to staunch the bleeding, and only then assaulted her. I could perhaps buy that he continued initially and then stopped to get the towels. But then there would've been blood on his hands (as there would've been after handling the blood-soaked towels as well) and therefore bloody traces of the assault on her body.


A photo of the jacket to consider:
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1447

Look how much blood is on around the neck of the jacket. It is likely she was stabbed while still wearing the jacket.

Blood on the cuff of a sock:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=165599630131183&set=a.124466634244483.15396.106344459390034

Did bloody hands remove them?


Charlie,

Rep 114 - the underwear just say MK's DNA was found. Do you know if there was blood on the underwear?

Rep 115 - the jeans, says the same - but I know there was blood on the jeans. It's visible in photos even.

Didn't they do any testing on the long sleve T-shirt ? I don't see it mentioned at all....
 
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