Public Education is a Socialist Monopoly

[Mashuna]

What "vitriol, exactly?
What "hate being spewed forth"? Cite it.

You see, discussion and debate, like education, consists of specifics, it consists of facts, not empty generalizations devoid of meaning and fact.

I quote you, I quote Milton Friedman, and union bosses.
You respond by "just (being) astonished at the level of vitriol...")

What "violent reaction"? It appears to me that your side has been more vitriolic, and more hateful than I have. Look, here comes some now:




Of course, when you put a cute little smiley face at the end, it's all good.
Making reference to ME as a jerk is, well, so very justified, isn't it.



The *scholarship* of everyone here is truly impressive, second only to the *tolerance* and *open-mindedness*.

Kudos to all of you.

Let me offer up a concept that eludes this group: entrepreneurial initiative, and creativity.

Henry Ford had it. Not a particularly bright guy in terms of book learning, however.
For book learning, you might look to Theodore Kaczynski, former professor at Berkeley.
Then he became the Unabomber.

I had some great teachers. Not ONE of them, not ONE talked like this group does. Nor do you people talk like this in your classrooms, nor to the parents of your students, unless they oppose your latest DEMANDS for yet more money.
This year.

Please try hard not to get banned from the forum. You're one of the funniest posters around at the moment. Bishadi is just getting old.

 

[cwalner]

i'm an anarcho-commune-ist.

or as Eric Cartman would say:
God-Damn Hippy.

 

[JonathanQuick]

If your poor attitude coming right out of the gate isn't self-evident by now, after having been called on it several times and had it quoted back to you, I don't know how else to point it out. I'm a good teacher, but I'm not that good.

Having faced a relentless onslaught of ad hominem attacks, I asked for specifics.

YOU have the temerity to call that a "poor attitude."

On top of that, you call yourself "a good teacher."

Tell me, how many times in your classroom do you call students "ignorant"?

How many times do you tell your students they "don't know anything"?

The hateful language used throughout this exchange is not the least bit unusual. It is characteristic of every message board frequented by Leftists.
It is truly shameful, but pointing this out never seems to elicit anything but a pathetic attempt to justify continued Leftist condescension and intolerance.

 

[jj-158]

Why do you even bother? This is like talking to a wall, except the wall is easier on the ears.

Attack the argument, not the arguer.

 

[JonathanQuick]

• Do you have evidence of this 95K salary figure - yes or no?
• If yes, does the small portion (less than 10%) of these teachers who
  make that much constitute a widespread problem?
• Is the other 90% who make less than ~65K excessive?
• If yes, how much should they make?
• Should pay be measured by qualifications, experience, and results?
• If the top earners making 95K are the most qualified, experienced, and get the best results, are they overpaid?
• If yes, how much should they make?
• Why do you think looking at the top wage earners (less than 10%) is more relevant than the average or median earners when deciding if teachers are overpaid?

Your pal:

Prediction: none of the above questions will be answered. Instead the poster who posted them will be insulted and the questions will be painted as insults.

The brilliance of teachers never ceases to amaze me. No, really.
You lovelies have called me ignorant and anti-science and claimed I don't bother to read and know nothing, and then you suggest I will INSULT YOU!

That's richer than Democrats complaining about Bush spending and then celebrating Obama's spending outrageously MORE.

1. That figure has been published in our local newspapers. Where my locale is is none of your business. I have been threatened before by Leftists and personally eschew violence. The Left does not. Exhibit #1 is union thuggery.

2. What difference does it make how many earn $95,000. I don't know and don't care. The claim that teachers are so underpaid is belied by this one statistic.

3. How much teachers SHOULD make is a proper point for debate. What teachers should NOT claim, year after year after year, is that they are "underpaid" and "could make SO MUCH MORE in the private sector."

Please, stop the lies.

4. I never said top wages are "more relevant." Wherever did you get such an idea.

Leftists are always putting words in my mouth.
Most anti-intellectual of the left.

Lovely avatar, Ichabod. I assume that is how you look and that you are proud of it. Do you appear that way in classrooms too?

 

[cwalner]

2. What difference does it make how many earn $95,000. I don't know and don't care. The claim that teachers are so underpaid is belied by this one statistic.
...
4. I never said top wages are "more relevant." Wherever did you get such an idea.

gee, JQ, I have no idea. Where would we ever have gotten such an idea?

Also, I just watched an episode of Tog Gear, where they profiled a new Bugatti that sells for £1.5M = $2.38M. By your logic, this conclusively proves that cars are too expensive for most people to afford.

This is why most people use the median (not even the more common mean) when discussing aggregates like home prices and salaries for a given profession.

Therefore your choice to use top salary of teachers to discuss teachers salaries in general is just wrong and meaningless. It is more indicative of an ideological axe to grind rather than a willingness to discuss the realities of what teachers earn and what their services are worth

 

[Ducky]

gee, JQ, I have no idea. Where would we ever have gotten such an idea?

Also, I just watched an episode of Tog Gear, where they profiled a new Bugatti that sells for £1.5M = $2.38M. By your logic, this conclusively proves that cars are too expensive for most people to afford.

This is why most people use the median (not even the more common mean) when discussing aggregates like home prices and salaries for a given profession.

Therefore your choice to use top salary of teachers to discuss teachers salaries in general is just wrong and meaningless. It is more indicative of an ideological axe to grind rather than a willingness to discuss the realities of what teachers earn and what their services are worth

To be fair, I am totally of the opinion the Veyron should be handed out to everyone who wants one for free.

Oh drat, does this mean I'm one of those stinking leftists? let the flames from Jonathan begin.

I'll be over there having coffee with MattusMaximus. Someone tell SCat there's soy lattes.

 

[cwalner]

To be fair, I am totally of the opinion the Veyron should be handed out to everyone who wants one for free.

Sounds like a roundabout Eugenics plan. Give everybody a road car that can get up to 250 mph and let natural selection take its course.

 

[excaza]

2. What difference does it make how many earn $95,000. I don't know and don't care. The claim that teachers are so underpaid is belied by this one statistic.

This logic is astoundingly awful...

 

[MattusMaximus]

2. What difference does it make how many earn $95,000. I don't know and don't care. The claim that teachers are so underpaid is belied by this one statistic.

If you "don't care" about how many teachers earn $95,000+ per year, then why do you keep trotting it out? If it is irrelevant, why do you say it is an argument against the idea that teachers are underpaid? You aren't even being consistent within your own argument.

In addition to this internal inconsistency within your own arguments, the fact that you repeatedly make this claim about teacher pay means that you

a) know very little about statistics, or

b) are cherry-picking data to suit your argument.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim? Such as, perhaps, actual statistics? Or did you just come up with this "unimportant" number out of the blue? So, in short, you are making little sense. But if your goal is to rant & rave, you're doing a great job of that. Please continue

ETA: Looks like excaza beat me to it.

 

[excaza]

ETA: Looks like excaza beat me to it.

and cwalner beat me

Jonathan, you still haven't addressed who is going to pay to send everyone to private schools.

The government? Oops! That's socialist!

Nor have you addressed how shifting every single student from a "public" school to a "private" school will change well...anything. So they'll all be "private" and eventually separate themselves into better "private" (where the rich people send their kids) and worse "private" (where the poor people go). You're left with the same exact system that exists now, just with a different name.

 

[IchabodPlain]

Your pal:

No, not my pal. I've never met, nor ever previously conversed with that user.

The brilliance of teachers never ceases to amaze me. No, really.
You lovelies have called me ignorant and anti-science and claimed I don't bother to read and know nothing, and then you suggest I will INSULT YOU!

I've never responded to you, so could never have called you any of the names you've listed. Furthermore, I am not a teacher, nor do I have plans on becoming one.

That's richer than Democrats complaining about Bush spending and then celebrating Obama's spending outrageously MORE.

I'm not a Democrat, nor did I vote for Obama.

1. That figure has been published in our local newspapers. Where my locale is is none of your business. I have been threatened before by Leftists and personally eschew violence. The Left does not. Exhibit #1 is union thuggery.

I couldn't care less about where your locale is. I asked for evidence of your claim which you haven't provided. So, I will ask again:

Do you have any evidence for the 95K salary figure?

2. What difference does it make how many earn $95,000. I don't know and don't care. The claim that teachers are so underpaid is belied by this one statistic.

Not really. If the top 1% of teachers earn 95K, but teach in magnet programs at public schools and are the most qualified, experienced, and educate students which go on to have the best test scores, etc, then maybe the figure is justified (which would depend on the qualifications, experience, and results from teachers who also teach comparative classes, but earn less and live in/near the same geographic region as teacher pay in Kansas with New York City isn't really comparable).

3. How much teachers SHOULD make is a proper point for debate. What teachers should NOT claim, year after year after year, is that they are "underpaid" and "could make SO MUCH MORE in the private sector."

Teachers (whether you agree with their position or not) are making the argument that they should make more. However, you didn't answer my question - are those 90% of teachers who make less than 65K overpaid? what about the 50% who make less than ~50K?

Please, stop the lies.

Show me a single lie I have told.

4. I never said top wages are "more relevant." Wherever did you get such an idea.

Implicitly, you did exactly that. You're using a statistic (which you can't substantiate) about the top nth% of teachers salaries to make generalizations about teachers pay on the whole.

Leftists are always putting words in my mouth.
Most anti-intellectual of the left.

I'm a registered Republican, thank you. I've put no words in your mouth. Rather, I asked you a list of questions.

Lovely avatar, Ichabod. I assume that is how you look and that you are proud of it. Do you appear that way in classrooms too?

It's actually a painting by Chuck Close.

 

[commandlinegamer]

Is this an insult the lefties thread?

Bring it on then! We'll dig up ole' Karl and parade him through the streets of Washington!

'Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose...etc.'

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Having faced a relentless onslaught of ad hominem attacks, I asked for specifics.

You mean specifics like where that $95,000 figure came from?

On top of that, you call yourself "a good teacher."

Yep!

Tell me, how many times in your classroom do you call students "ignorant"?

Zero.

How many times do you tell your students they "don't know anything"?

Again, zero. Where do you get such ridiculous ideas?

Your pal:



The brilliance of teachers never ceases to amaze me. No, really.
You lovelies have called me ignorant and anti-science and claimed I don't bother to read and know nothing, and then you suggest I will INSULT YOU!

Please cite in which post I called you ignorant and anti-science and claimed you don't read and know nothing.



2. What difference does it make how many earn $95,000. I don't know and don't care. The claim that teachers are so underpaid is belied by this one statistic.

4. I never said top wages are "more relevant." Wherever did you get such an idea.

[/QUOTE]

Wow.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Nor have you addressed how shifting every single student from a "public" school to a "private" school will change well...anything. So they'll all be "private" and eventually separate themselves into better "private" (where the rich people send their kids) and worse "private" (where the poor people go). You're left with the same exact system that exists now, just with a different name.

Except that if such a system were to come into place, there are certain constitutional protections which would no longer apply, such as the separation of church & state. I think that's one reason why so many fundamentalists support school vouchers in the first place.

 

[uruk]

~snip~Brand new BMWs, Mercedes, Lexuses, Volvos, and other high-end cars.

Then I went to the District headquarters, and photographed those PLUS two new Jaguars.

I sent all these digital photos to the subject teacher, the board of education, the district bigwigs, and the newspaper.

~snip~

Why are you blaming the teachers for what administration makes or buys? Blame the administration, not the teachers.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Is this an insult the lefties thread?

Actually, I think it's an insult anyone & everyone who doesn't immediately agree with me thread

 

[uruk]

Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
I have asked you several times in this thread for evidence about the 95k a year. You have ignored this request. Evidence please. There is no reason for anyone here to take your word for it. Failure to support this assertion looks dishonest.

Put up or shut up. If you have no evidence, just say so.

BTW, One of the reasons I want the info is to see if I can compare it to local demographic info.



Funny that no leftist EVER questions the veracity of a fellow lefty.

Doubt doesn't ask YOU to "put up or shut up." Only me.
Such is the integrity, the fairness, the honesty of the left.

As if HIS investigations would be fair and objective, much less conclusive.

Since when is Alberta a State in the U.S?

 

[uruk]

If you are referring to teachers as seriously lacking in "this skill" (knowledge-based education and teaching students to be effective critical thinkers), I agree.

New York City schools were featured on a national news investigation a few years ago, and they showed a huge building where hundreds of incompetent teachers were housed daily. They teach nobody. They do whatever they want. They cannot be fired because of the teachers' union.

It is disgraceful. What have teachers done to correct this abomination?

It is widespread throughout America, this inability to fire incompetent teachers.

Not down here. The Mission school district is "not renwing the contracts" of some 15 odd teachers in one school alone. All of them union. I don't know where you get your info buddy, but you are way off.

 

[Ducky]

So all we've really worked out in this thread is that left-leaning liberals suck and everyone should get a Bugatti Veyron for free.

Amirite?