Public Education is a Socialist Monopoly

[JonathanQuick]

Education:
- socializes children ////

Quite so.

"Public education is a socialist monopoly, a real one." - the late Milton Friedman, professor emeritus and Nobel Laureate

 

[excaza]

Imagine thousands of private schools, all over America.

Paid for by whom? Santa Claus?

 

[John Jones]

2. Your fellow teachers are giggling about their cushy jobs, their easy hours, long vacations, and high pay, and you said NOTHING to any of them.

You don't get to pick other people's fights for them.

 

[majamin]

To: "argue why they shouldn't be paid that much" you stated:

Reason #1: Beginning teachers at the same district are paid roughly HALF as much, for doing the same work. Do you like being paid half as much as your peer for doing the same work?

This is an ambiguous argument that either states (1) that beginning teachers should get paid more, or (2) experienced teachers should get paid less. Neither argument makes sense. For one, experienced teachers get paid more because of their experience, as with most professions.

Reason #2: $95,000 for 9 months work is really quite excessive. That's the reason there are so many applicants per opening.

$95k per annum is not excessive if the work is important and specialized: teaching is both.

Are you saying that the larger the salary, the larger the number of applicants? Really? Have you been on a hiring committee so many times that you can make this broad declaration without evidence? And, the more qualifications you stipulate, the more unqualified applicants will apply? Counter-intuitive, but I'm open to any evidence that can echo this assertion.

Reason #3: Education majors score lower on SAT scores, on average, than any other major. If for no other reason, this is sufficient to pay considerably less than $95,000 a year.

No evidence cited. Care to provide?

 

[Alt+F4]

Your fellow teachers are giggling about their cushy jobs, their easy hours, long vacations, and high pay, and you said NOTHING to any of them.

WRONG. I was not giggling about my cushy job, easy hours, long vacation and high pay....I was laughing out loud how happy I am about it.

So what are you going to do about it Jonathan? Are you going to try to become the NYC School Chancellor and fire me? Of course not, you're just going to rant and rave on the Internet.

Gotta go now, those socialist indoctrination lessons ain't gonna write themselves!

 

[ria_rokz]

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Had a conservative said such a thing, he would have been mauled by your pals.
There would have been demand after demand to "prove" your allegations.

But anything stated by a Democrat/liberal is instantly accepted by the rest of the herd, as if it were Obamian gospel.

"When children start paying union dues, then I'll start representing them." - Albert Shanker, union boss

Well I'm sorry to break this to you Jonathan, but some of us have things to do rather than sit on this forum waiting to yell at people. That post hasn't even been up 24 hours. Relax.

bikderdruid also has personal experience with that particular union, so he may be able to speak to it differently than oh... I don't know... someone who just spouts random quotes and unreferenced news stories.

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to respond to my request regarding the New York City schools.

 

[ria_rokz]

after many years as a member, and many thousands paid in dues, i think the ATA is a money guzzling bureaucracy.
i'm not a big fan. sorry.
if it was an effective union, classroom conditions would be a lot better in conservative-stricken alberta.

I guess I have been fortunate to be in a variety of excellent classrooms, as a student, employee, and student teacher. I have no experience in schools in the capital or Calgary so maybe things really are that bad there. I have also had a lot of success with the ATA, although I have only been involved with them for a few years so you have an advantage over me on that. Until experience proves otherwise, I would like to agree to disagree with you on this one.

 

[bikerdruid]

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

Had a conservative said such a thing, he would have been mauled by your pals.
There would have been demand after demand to "prove" your allegations.

But anything stated by a Democrat/liberal is instantly accepted by the rest of the herd, as if it were Obamian gospel.

cool.
but, please don't confuse me with a liberal
i'm waaaay more left than that.

a teacher's job is to work for the children, not the bureaucrats.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I am just astonished at the level of vitriol and hate being spewed forth. I've occasionally seen this kind of thing in discussions about race or religion, but not so much political leanings and never singling out a profession. It makes me wonder what kind of trauma was experienced to cause such a violent reaction.

It also occurs to me that if what Jonathan says is true and he earns enough to pay $86,000 in taxes... well, he must have had some pretty good teachers somewhere along the way.

 

[Doubt]

Since the guy who started this refused to support his claim, here is one source of data on teacher incomes:

http://tiny.cc/ahtkb

That shows the national averages for public school teachers. Now if somebody decides to supply some evidence for his 95K theme, we have a way to see if it is plausible.

But as shown on that page, the 90th percentile is $65,830 dollars a year. Not bad money but a long, long way from 95K. The average is less, obviously.

So, there we have some evidence. Anybody got a higher number with something to support it?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Your errors, One Eye, are these:

1. When the economy was MUCH BETTER, there were still more applicants than positions for teaching jobs.

It depends on what fields you're talking about. If you are talking about high school English, social studies, physical education, or anything in elementary education, then you're definitely correct. In those fields of teaching, there are way more people earning certification than there are jobs - this was true years before the economy went into recession. And this was one of my big criticisms of the method by which universities prep prospective teachers: that there are too many people being prepped for areas where there aren't enough jobs and this leads to the "lazy major" syndrome. It is a big problem which needs to be addressed - I made this point much earlier in the thread.

However, if you're talking about high school mathematics, physics, chemistry, or special education, then people with certification in those areas are much more marketable. At least, they were prior to the economy tanking. Nowadays even well-qualified physics teachers are having some trouble finding work because some districts are cutting back their programs and the physics teachers with them since so few kids take physics at some schools. I know this because I am actually working with a number of out-of-work physics teachers to try getting them employed. The problem is that the jobs just aren't there now.

And if good, well-qualified physics teachers are having that trouble (there aren't a lot of them, I'll admit), then what do you think it's like for that first batch of people I talked about - the ones who majored in English or social studies education? It ain't pretty.

But then, there's the free market within the education profession again. If you majored in a field which has a glut of people in it to begin with, as opposed to a more selective field (like physics), then you're going to have a much harder time finding a job. The math is pretty simple.

2. Your fellow teachers are giggling about their cushy jobs, their easy hours, long vacations, and high pay, and you said NOTHING to any of them.

Yeah, you know all about the conversations I have with my colleagues - sounds to me like you're psychic or something. I suggest playing the lottery

Incidentally, it might interest you to know that as both union president last year and ex-officio this year, I have on a number of occasions told some of my union members to "shut up and soldier". Whining, whether it comes from ideologues like you or my fellow teaching colleagues, is something for which I have little tolerance.

Double standards like this are rampant among the left. But I repeat myself.

Double standards are rampant among anyone more wed to their ideology than to reality. Try looking in the mirror for a lesson in that.

3. The first ones to go are usually the janitors, and other classified employees.

At my district when we had layoffs this past year, we did lose some non-union staff, but we also lost some of our unionized faculty. I was the president of my union this past year when we were making these hard decisions, and we even got to the point where our union leadership (at my urging) was discussing whether or not we should take a pay cut to save some people. In the end we didn't have to do that because we worked with the administration to find other cost-cutting measures.

We saved some jobs (both union & non-union), but we couldn't save them all. Life sucks sometimes.

4. Administrations EVERYWHERE are grotesquely bloated, as even teachers will admit, but only if they are honest. Administrations should be cut first.

The administration at my school was cut. Everybody at my school - from staff to faculty to administration - has been hit in some way. Nobody has been immune from the cuts. Nor, in this environment, should we be immune. I must applaud my administration for having the balls to step up to the plate on this one.

I am not a sheep. ...

So you talk the talk, but you're unwilling to walk the walk? No surprise there.

The difference is that I don't go talking a lot of smack about fields in which I have no expertise. You, apparently, think that you are somehow, magically, an expert in a subject about which you know next to nothing. Must be those amazing psychic powers of yours

 

[MattusMaximus]

I am just astonished at the level of vitriol and hate being spewed forth. I've occasionally seen this kind of thing in discussions about race or religion, but not so much political leanings and never singling out a profession. It makes me wonder what kind of trauma was experienced to cause such a violent reaction.

It is entirely possible that people who spew such vitriol are also just plain jerks

It also occurs to me that if what Jonathan says is true and he earns enough to pay $86,000 in taxes... well, he must have had some pretty good teachers somewhere along the way.

Nah, I'm sure he taught himself how to read, write, do math, and use a computer. He never needed any teachers, because he's just that awesome!

 

[JonathanQuick]

cool.
but, please don't confuse me with a liberal
i'm waaaay more left than that.

a teacher's job is to work for the children, not the bureaucrats.

Ah, a Marxist.

How unusual for a Leftist to honestly admit his extremism, instead of lying about it. Most call themselves "moderates" or "independents."

 

[JonathanQuick]

Since the guy who started this refused to support his claim, here is one source of data on teacher incomes:

http://tiny.cc/ahtkb

That shows the national averages for public school teachers. Now if somebody decides to supply some evidence for his 95K theme, we have a way to see if it is plausible.

Doubt, your little block calls you an "Illuminator."

You posted nothing illuminating above. Quite to the contrary.
This is the problem with teachers.

1. You all march in lockstep, leftist lockstep. Not one of you has the courage to break union ranks and TRY TO UNDERSTAND what I am saying.

Not one of you.

2. I cited, specifically, the "TOP PAY," the "SUPER MAX" and so of course you parade out "averages" for ALL teachers, and compare apples and zebras.

Is that how you people teach your charges?

But as shown on that page, the 90th percentile is $65,830 dollars a year FOR AVERGE SALARIES. Not bad money but a long, long way from 95K. The average is less, obviously.

I believe I also stated that first year teachers in this district make something on the order of $45,000 or $50,000. The averages are "a long, long way from 95K."

So, there we have some evidence. Anybody got a higher number with something to support it?

Yes you DO "have some evidence." Powerful stuff.

Averages versus the top tier.

Grade: D-

 

[JonathanQuick]

Originally Posted by NobbyNobbs:
I am just astonished at the level of vitriol and hate being spewed forth.//It makes me wonder what kind of trauma was experienced to cause such a violent reaction.

What "vitriol, exactly?
What "hate being spewed forth"? Cite it.

You see, discussion and debate, like education, consists of specifics, it consists of facts, not empty generalizations devoid of meaning and fact.

I quote you, I quote Milton Friedman, and union bosses.
You respond by "just (being) astonished at the level of vitriol...")

What "violent reaction"? It appears to me that your side has been more vitriolic, and more hateful than I have. Look, here comes some now:

It is entirely possible that people who spew such vitriol are also just plain jerks

Of course, when you put a cute little smiley face at the end, it's all good.
Making reference to ME as a jerk is, well, so very justified, isn't it.

NobbyNobbs (again): It also occurs to me that if what Jonathan says is true and he earns enough to pay $86,000 in taxes... well, he must have had some pretty good teachers somewhere along the way.

One-Eye:
Nah, I'm sure he taught himself how to read, write, do math, and use a computer. He never needed any teachers, because he's just that awesome!

The *scholarship* of everyone here is truly impressive, second only to the *tolerance* and *open-mindedness*.

Kudos to all of you.

Let me offer up a concept that eludes this group: entrepreneurial initiative, and creativity.

Henry Ford had it. Not a particularly bright guy in terms of book learning, however.
For book learning, you might look to Theodore Kaczynski, former professor at Berkeley.
Then he became the Unabomber.

I had some great teachers. Not ONE of them, not ONE talked like this group does. Nor do you people talk like this in your classrooms, nor to the parents of your students, unless they oppose your latest DEMANDS for yet more money.
This year.

 

[IchabodPlain]

Doubt, your little block calls you an "Illuminator."

You posted nothing illuminating above. Quite to the contrary.
This is the problem with teachers.

1. You all march in lockstep, leftist lockstep. Not one of you has the courage to break union ranks and TRY TO UNDERSTAND what I am saying.

Not one of you.

2. I cited, specifically, the "TOP PAY," the "SUPER MAX" and so of course you parade out "averages" for ALL teachers, and compare apples and zebras.

Is that how you people teach your charges?



I believe I also stated that first year teachers in this district make something on the order of $45,000 or $50,000. The averages are "a long, long way from 95K."



Yes you DO "have some evidence." Powerful stuff.

Averages versus the top tier.

Grade: D-

• Do you have evidence of this 95K salary figure - yes or no?
• If yes, does the small portion (less than 10%) of these teachers who
  make that much constitute a widespread problem?
• Is the other 90% who make less than ~65K excessive?
• If yes, how much should they make?
• Should pay be measured by qualifications, experience, and results?
• If the top earners making 95K are the most qualified, experienced, and get the best results, are they overpaid?
• If yes, how much should they make?
• Why do you think looking at the top wage earners (less than 10%) is more relevant than the average or median earners when deciding if teachers are overpaid?

 

[Roboramma]

Prediction: none of the above questions will be answered. Instead the poster who posted them will be insulted and the questions will be painted as insults.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

What "vitriol, exactly?
What "hate being spewed forth"? Cite it.

You see, discussion and debate, like education, consists of specifics, it consists of facts, not empty generalizations devoid of meaning and fact.

I quote you, I quote Milton Friedman, and union bosses.
You respond by "just (being) astonished at the level of vitriol...")

What "violent reaction"? It appears to me that your side has been more vitriolic, and more hateful than I have. Look, here comes some now:




Of course, when you put a cute little smiley face at the end, it's all good.
Making reference to ME as a jerk is, well, so very justified, isn't it.



The *scholarship* of everyone here is truly impressive, second only to the *tolerance* and *open-mindedness*.

Kudos to all of you.

Let me offer up a concept that eludes this group: entrepreneurial initiative, and creativity.

Henry Ford had it. Not a particularly bright guy in terms of book learning, however.
For book learning, you might look to Theodore Kaczynski, former professor at Berkeley.
Then he became the Unabomber.

I had some great teachers. Not ONE of them, not ONE talked like this group does. Nor do you people talk like this in your classrooms, nor to the parents of your students, unless they oppose your latest DEMANDS for yet more money.
This year.

If your poor attitude coming right out of the gate isn't self-evident by now, after having been called on it several times and had it quoted back to you, I don't know how else to point it out. I'm a good teacher, but I'm not that good.

 

[Chaos]

If your poor attitude coming right out of the gate isn't self-evident by now, after having been called on it several times and had it quoted back to you, I don't know how else to point it out. I'm a good teacher, but I'm not that good.

Why do you even bother? This is like talking to a wall, except the wall is easier on the ears.

 

[bikerdruid]

Ah, a Marxist.

How unusual for a Leftist to honestly admit his extremism, instead of lying about it. Most call themselves "moderates" or "independents."

not a marxist....
i think that kropotkin and bakunin were a lot more insightful.
i'm an anarcho-commune-ist.
and proudly so, thanks.
i am certainly not a moderate. the status quo is not acceptable.