Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

A lot of remarks about Amanda are nothing more than tattles. My childhood memories include those of tattle tales. I remember that they became more shunned than the people they ratted on. "Tattle tale, tattle tale, the children would call the informer. It became such a stigma to be branded a 'tattletale' that nobody ever ratted on each other.

Even young children were aware that ratting on another was a vile thing. I just wonder what ever happened to that youthful education. Why do some as adults see no wrong in being a tattle?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-tattletale.htm

The motivation for becoming a tattletale may be in part to maintain order in a household, or school environment, and also to garner attention for one’s self. A child may be encouraged not to be a tattletale, which can create complex issues. There are instances when a child should legitimately tell something but holds back for fear of being labeled as a tattletale. On the other hand, some children just can’t hold back and must “tell on” other children. They may also be particularly bad at keeping any kind of secrets.

Discriminating between when one should hold a secret and when one should inform an adult usually develops as a child ages. However, some adults display tattletale characteristics as well, having never outgrown the need to tell. In addition to seeking attention, an adult tattletale may also be motivated by other selfish reasons. He or she may sadistically enjoy the punishment or embarrassment of others, or “telling” may be a convenient way of getting rid of obstacles, e.g., other employees, to promotions at work, for example.
Their peers often dislike both the adult and child tattletale because they get other people in trouble. They may be avoided or shunned, which may actually make the person tattle more since need for attention is met with less frequency. Adults who do feel they should legitimately report something may fear the label of tattletale just as much as children do. If they observe illegal activities in the workplace or in their neighborhood, they still may not report because a tattler is often despised.

She did cartwheels. She kissed. She smoked marijuana. etc. Stuff like that all falls into the tattle category.

 

[Machiavelli]

The photo I'm using came from a forensic report prepared by the Scientific Police. It was taken with a special lighting source called a Crimescope, which can produce light in specific wavelengths as well as the balanced full-spectrum lighting used for this photo. They used this lighting so they could get a clear rendering of the shape of the bloodstain. Rindaldi chose to use photos taken with ordinary lighting for his analysis, and this image is not included in his report.

The photos you are using are not automatically generated by a crimescope equipment, their outline was manually ehnanced by the forensic team.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

photos of Meredith's room

I am dismayed by the change in appearance of Meredith's room between November 2nd and the middle of December. Was all of the tossing about of stuff documented on video? If not, how do we know whether or not it was done in accordance with guidelines about gloves, etc.?

 

[Withnail1969]

I am dismayed by the change in appearance of Meredith's room between November 2nd and the middle of December. Was all of the tossing about of stuff documented on video? If not, how do we know whether or not it was done in accordance with guidelines about gloves, etc.?

Why was the room left in this state? Why weren't the items documented, bagged, and taken away to be stored in sterile conditions pending possible testing? What kind of operation were these characters running?

It's hard to understand how they managed to zero in on the elusive bra clasp given the slovenly state of chaos they had created.

 

[Justinian2]

Why was the room left in this state? Why weren't the items documented, bagged, and taken away to be stored in sterile conditions pending possible testing? What kind of operation were these characters running?

It's hard to understand how they managed to zero in on the elusive bra clasp given the slovenly state of chaos they had created.

Not really.

1) Those with powers of circular reasoning know RS is guilty so therefore evidence must be around somewhere.

2) Those who wish not to use circular reasoning know that RS and AK are being framed.

Everybody knows why the police managed to zero in on the elusive bra clasp, it's just that their reasons are different.

 

[christianahannah]

The photos you are using are not automatically generated by a crimescope equipment, their outline was manually ehnanced by the forensic team.

Can you explain the process you mean in the above sentence?

Are there copies of evidence photos of the rug in its natural state (before enhancement)? Likewise, copies of evidence photos of enhancement of the rug which the consultants based their opinions on.

 

[Withnail1969]

Not really.

1) Those without the powers of circular reasoning know RS is guilty so therefore evidence must be around somewhere.

2) Those who wish not to use circular reasoning know that RS and AK are being framed.

Everybody knows why the police managed to zero in on the elusive bra clasp, it's just that their reasons are different.

Indeed. It seems an appropriate time to mention that Italy ranks 63rd on the World Corruption Index, joint with Saudi Arabia, making it the most corrupt country in Europe except for Greece, IIRC.

 

[RoseMontague]

I am dismayed by the change in appearance of Meredith's room between November 2nd and the middle of December. Was all of the tossing about of stuff documented on video? If not, how do we know whether or not it was done in accordance with guidelines about gloves, etc.?

Where did all the stuff in the later set of pictures come from? And the chair has moved, or possibly a different chair. I wonder if any of this stuff came from other rooms in the home?

 

[el buscador]

Indeed. It seems an appropriate time to mention that Italy ranks 63rd on the World Corruption Index, joint with Saudi Arabia, making it the most corrupt country in Europe except for Greece, IIRC.

Hi Withnail, can you give a cite for these claims?

 

[LondonJohn]

Well LJ, you are going to love this. I just hung up with my favorite GI doc after a long discussion about t(lag) and t(1/2) etc. He said he finds it extrememly difficult to believe the entire meal was still in the stomach after even 3 hours. He said "No way."

He was telling me about the transit studies they do for gastroparesis and he said they feed the patient a small amount of pudding-like substance and the average time to t(1/2) is 90 minutes. He said he even checked with a pathologist after he received my email. He said "Obviously if someone ate big chunks of steak or lots of fiber it would take longer but still not 3 or 4 hours."

I asked if he thought the entire meal could have been at the end of the small intestine after, perhaps, 5 hours and he said yes but then there wouldn't have been 500cc in the stomach. So unless Meredith ate substantially an hour before dying at 11:30PM then he just doesn't see how the ToD could have even been 9:30 without having something in her small intestine.

I work with dozens of GI docs and anesthesiologists, etc. so I will keep asking around. I have mostly professional relationships with the physicians with whom I work so I will have to find the opportune time to ask as they are all so busy. Most of the time I barely have time to answer whatever questions they are asking before they "have to go". But plenty of them call me at home (just like tonight) so I will certainly ask when that happens. After all, home is MY time so I should be able to ask an OT question

One thing he did say was GI docs are more interested in t(1/2) than t(lag) because t(1/2) is specifically studied for GI malfunction. He thinks forensic pathologists would be better versed in the area of stomach contents as they relate to ToD.

Very interesting points, thanks! It only goes to reinforce what all the published literature has to say on the matter. Meredith almost certainly died within three hours of starting her last meal. And this means she almost certainly died before 9.30pm. Furthermore, it's practically impossible, given the reported state of her stomach and intestines, that she died beyond 10.00pm.

I think some people have a huge amount of trouble understanding just how important and accurate this evidence is in determining ToD in this particular case. I think those people are, sooner or later, going to have to start questioning their strongly-held beliefs about this crime. I further believe (as I have always said) that Sollecito's and Knox's defence teams may have made errors in how they chose to address this issue in the first trial - even though they were slightly blindsided by Mignini's last-minute change in the prosecution ToD (and quite how that was allowed by the court, I have no idea...). I am supposing that the defence teams will be mounting a serious challenge on ToD in the appeals, together with the clear implications that a 9.00-9.30pm ToD would have upon Knox's and Solecito's possibility of involvement.

 

[Withnail1969]

Hi Withnail, can you give a cite for these claims?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Index

edit to add - forgot about Croatia and Montenegro, which are below Italy, if you can even call them countries. Bulgaria, Macedonia and Romania are joint 71st with Greece.

 

[christianahannah]

I am dismayed by the change in appearance of Meredith's room between November 2nd and the middle of December. Was all of the tossing about of stuff documented on video? If not, how do we know whether or not it was done in accordance with guidelines about gloves, etc.?

From what I remember, however others may correct my memory, the crimescene was not entered after November 6-7, 2007 (it may have been sooner that the house was sealed, I am not sure) until December 18, 2007.

I would imagine that every item in the room once the evidence had been cataloged and collected, would have been gone over again for any evidence which may have been missed (obviously, the bra clasp was missed). If this was done I do not know when it would have been done but prior to November 6-7 (and sooner if the flat was sealed before that time).

Stefanoni testifies to procedure of the technicians in the flat as to how the scene was processed (a technician in one room did not enter another, protective coverings used, etc.). Whether this same procedure was done after the evidence was collected and the rooms further searched (from November 3-6,7) I cannot say. This information may be included in the motivations.

The December 18 search/collection was videotaped and watched on monitor by the defense. I am not sure if there is any videotape of any further search done on the flat after evidence collection between November 2-3 to November 6-7.

 

[christianahannah]

Where did all the stuff in the later set of pictures come from? And the chair has moved, or possibly a different chair. I wonder if any of this stuff came from other rooms in the home?

It is the same chair, only moved. I don't think the stuff is from any other room but I am not sure. Amanda's lamp was already in Meredith's room. Following is a description from the motivations.

Pages 202-203:

[211] The situation in Meredith’s room as it appeared in the December 18 search was different from that of the first search: the mattress had been taken to the living room area; a lot of clothes which, during the first search hadn’t been catalogued, were on top of the bed slats; the closet doors, removed, were inside the room and leaning on the door; the small rug that was in the corner towards the wall on the right was found in front of the desk, a metre away from where it had been [before], and under this small rug, during the December 18 search, the small piece of bra with hooks was found, as well as the sock. This small rug hadn’t been analysed and one could see a few traces that perhaps were of a blood-derived nature. She added that it was not judged necessary to analyse the small rug because, although appearing soiled by a substance that was presumably blood, it was in an area where there was an enormous streak of blood‛ and so it was natural that it was soiled by the blood of the victim, without it taking on any particular meaning.

ETA

Page 273:

...and as was declared, no object that was taken out of any room was then brought back, and no object found in one room was taken to a different room or place in the house.

 

[LondonJohn]

The reasoning on this is worthy of Massei, anyone entering the flat would probably have shoes on and to make a bare print would have to take shoes off. I think Dan's theory on this bathmat print is the most likely scenario that I have seen thus far.

No, I think that the "professional defence counsel's" theory is by far the best and most logical. That's the one where the bath mat is superglued to the bathroom floor, making it incapable of being moved. Therefore Guede would have had to "break his (expletive deleted) knee" in order to place his right foot onto the superglued bath mat, if he were using the bidet to clean his trousers. Therefore Guede's foot didn't make the print.

Instead, the print was made by Sollecito, en route to the shower (although we'll overlook the fact that a right foot print in that position on the superglued bath mat is indicative of someone en route to the wall next to the shower....). What's more, even though Sollecito collected pure blood on the sole of his foot inside Meredith's room, he not only managed to preserve a large enough amount of liquid on his foot to make a solid print on the bath mat (despite needing to take at least three right-foot steps before stepping onto the superglued bath mat), but this print was miraculously made in a dilute blood/water mixture. Maybe Sollecito's foot was sweating profusely.......

 

[LondonJohn]

From what I remember, however others may correct my memory, the crimescene was not entered after November 6-7, 2007 (it may have been sooner that the house was sealed, I am not sure) until December 18, 2007.

I would imagine that every item in the room once the evidence had been cataloged and collected, would have been gone over again for any evidence which may have been missed (obviously, the bra clasp was missed). If this was done I do not know when it would have been done but prior to November 6-7 (and sooner if the flat was sealed before that time).

Stefanoni testifies to procedure of the technicians in the flat as to how the scene was processed (a technician in one room did not enter another, protective coverings used, etc.). Whether this same procedure was done after the evidence was collected and the rooms further searched (from November 3-6,7) I cannot say. This information may be included in the motivations.

The December 18 search/collection was videotaped and watched on monitor by the defense. I am not sure if there is any videotape of any further search done on the flat after evidence collection between November 2-3 to November 6-7.

But whatever the situation, it's abundantly clear that the crime scene was not preserved for the whole period between mid-November and mid-December. This should make all of the evidence subsequently recovered in mid-December subject to severe doubt over its validity (and yes, that means the additional evidence against Guede, too).

 

[RoseMontague]

From what I remember, however others may correct my memory, the crimescene was not entered after November 6-7, 2007 (it may have been sooner that the house was sealed, I am not sure) until December 18, 2007.

I would imagine that every item in the room once the evidence had been cataloged and collected, would have been gone over again for any evidence which may have been missed (obviously, the bra clasp was missed). If this was done I do not know when it would have been done but prior to November 6-7 (and sooner if the flat was sealed before that time).

Stefanoni testifies to procedure of the technicians in the flat as to how the scene was processed (a technician in one room did not enter another, protective coverings used, etc.). Whether this same procedure was done after the evidence was collected and the rooms further searched (from November 3-6,7) I cannot say. This information may be included in the motivations.

The December 18 search/collection was videotaped and watched on monitor by the defense. I am not sure if there is any videotape of any further search done on the flat after evidence collection between November 2-3 to November 6-7.

That would be the proper procedure and it appears they put on this protective gear before entering the flat and going to their assigned locations, assuming they all stuck to that plan). The problem with this is as I have pointed out the fact that the bottom of thier booties come in contact with the floor in other locations prior to them entering the room. This should not cause a problem as long as they don't step on the evidence or move the evidence to a place where they have stepped before (or, say picking up the evidence off the floor and dropping it back onto an area of the floor where 2 of them had just walked on and recording that on video-LOL). The possibility of contamination by this means must be considered especially in light of the fact of at least two other unidentified profiles on the bra clasp (I doubt 4 or 5 people handled that bra clasp) and the fact that even Raffaele's DNA profile may be in the LCN range as argued in his appeal.

 

[Withnail1969]

No, I think that the "professional defence counsel's" theory is by far the best and most logical. That's the one where the bath mat is superglued to the bathroom floor, making it incapable of being moved. Therefore Guede would have had to "break his (expletive deleted) knee" in order to place his right foot onto the superglued bath mat, if he were using the bidet to clean his trousers. Therefore Guede's foot didn't make the print.

Correct. It was impossible for Guede to remove his shoes to rinse off blood without breaking his legs. I'm sure a lot of people every year find themselves in plaster just because they wanted to scrub a stain off their trainers. If only people would realise they would break their legs by removing their shoes.

 

[daydreamer]

Changing Your Mind

I am impressed by the level of knowledge about the case that has been demonstrated in this forum on both sides. People seem pretty entrenched on their positions here and I was wondering if anyone has changed their minds about as to guilt or innocence. And if they did switch, what was the item that turned the tide.
Personally, I was about 90/10 for guilt in the early days ( Jan ’08). Most of my input was from TJMK and PMF. Later in 2008, I started reading Perugia Shock, where I learned about the false HIV results and 3 fried computers. I started questioning the prosecution’s tactics, evidence and logic. By the end of 2008, I was about 50/50 on guilt. I actual trial was an eye-opener and hearing the “other side” has pushed me to 90/10 on innocence.
I would like to if you changed you position, what was the deciding factor. Or possibly, what would it take to change your mind. For me it was the tactics, evidence and logic of the prosecution.

 

[Withnail1969]

I am impressed by the level of knowledge about the case that has been demonstrated in this forum on both sides. People seem pretty entrenched on their positions here and I was wondering if anyone has changed their minds about as to guilt or innocence. And if they did switch, what was the item that turned the tide.
Personally, I was about 90/10 for guilt in the early days ( Jan ’08). Most of my input was from TJMK and PMF. Later in 2008, I started reading Perugia Shock, where I learned about the false HIV results and 3 fried computers. I started questioning the prosecution’s tactics, evidence and logic. By the end of 2008, I was about 50/50 on guilt. I actual trial was an eye-opener and hearing the “other side” has pushed me to 90/10 on innocence.
I would like to if you changed you position, what was the deciding factor. Or possibly, what would it take to change your mind. For me it was the tactics, evidence and logic of the prosecution.

The Massei report. The witnesses are without exception highly questionable, and the reasoning in the report is bizarre.

 

[RoseMontague]

I am impressed by the level of knowledge about the case that has been demonstrated in this forum on both sides. People seem pretty entrenched on their positions here and I was wondering if anyone has changed their minds about as to guilt or innocence. And if they did switch, what was the item that turned the tide.
Personally, I was about 90/10 for guilt in the early days ( Jan ’08). Most of my input was from TJMK and PMF. Later in 2008, I started reading Perugia Shock, where I learned about the false HIV results and 3 fried computers. I started questioning the prosecution’s tactics, evidence and logic. By the end of 2008, I was about 50/50 on guilt. I actual trial was an eye-opener and hearing the “other side” has pushed me to 90/10 on innocence.
I would like to if you changed you position, what was the deciding factor. Or possibly, what would it take to change your mind. For me it was the tactics, evidence and logic of the prosecution.

The Massei report convinced me of innocence as well. This seems to be a common theme.