Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

.....AK had been convicted for "Residential Disturbance" pursuant to a police-issued citation in connection with a rock throwing incident......

When I saw you were back beating this dead horse, treehorn, I checked LondonJohn's post, which you responded to, above. Lo and behold, right below it, I found this statement, made by you:

"I'm not heavily invested in any point."

Given your continued posts about Amanda and Raffaele's "bad reputations," I find that very hard to believe.

.....Have the police issued you a citation to appear in court for rock throwing?.....

Amanda was not issued a citation to appear in court for rock throwing and she was not "convicted" of anything. Those facts have been proven on these pages. Any further claims to the contrary are simply irrational.

 

[LondonJohn]

When I saw you were back beating this dead horse, treehorn, I checked LondonJohn's post, which you responded to, above. Lo and behold, right below it, I found this statement, made by you:

"I'm not heavily invested in any point."

Given your continued posts about Amanda and Raffaele's "bad reputations," I find that very hard to believe.




Amanda was not issued a citation to appear in court for rock throwing and she was not "convicted" of anything. Those facts have been proven on these pages. Any further claims to the contrary are simply irrational.

I too am fed up with these specious references to "convictions" and "courts" in relation to the party in Seattle. And I agree that those who persist in using such nomenclature as part of an attack on Knox's character seem to be quite heavily invested in a certain agenda.

Incidentally, when I was at uni, I think I could count on the fingers of one hand those students - out of maybe 50 or so that I knew - who didn't experiment with drink and/or drugs and/or sex. Further education is a "coming of age" in many ways, since one is often living away from parents for probably the first time, and since one feels - often for the first time - the liberty of finally reaching adulthood.

So I wouldn't find it to be indicative of any sort of personality disorder even if Knox had slept with three different men per week while in Perugia, or had experimented with virtually every kind of drug available. Of course I wouldn't condone that sort of behaviour, and didn't engage in it to that extent myself. But I know people who did, and they (and I) viewed it in hindsight as simply part of growing up. I most definitely would say that even those who engaged in these sorts of extreme behaviours never exhibited any symptoms of any kind of personality disorder. And it goes without saying that those of us who underwent less extreme experiences more akin to Knox's and Sollecito's experiences were the norm, rather than the exceptional.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Well LJ, you are going to love this. I just hung up with my favorite GI doc after a long discussion about t(lag) and t(1/2) etc. He said he finds it extrememly difficult to believe the entire meal was still in the stomach after even 3 hours. He said "No way."

He was telling me about the transit studies they do for gastroparesis and he said they feed the patient a small amount of pudding-like substance and the average time to t(1/2) is 90 minutes. He said he even checked with a pathologist after he received my email. He said "Obviously if someone ate big chunks of steak or lots of fiber it would take longer but still not 3 or 4 hours."

I asked if he thought the entire meal could have been at the end of the small intestine after, perhaps, 5 hours and he said yes but then there wouldn't have been 500cc in the stomach. So unless Meredith ate substantially an hour before dying at 11:30PM then he just doesn't see how the ToD could have even been 9:30 without having something in her small intestine.

I work with dozens of GI docs and anesthesiologists, etc. so I will keep asking around. I have mostly professional relationships with the physicians with whom I work so I will have to find the opportune time to ask as they are all so busy. Most of the time I barely have time to answer whatever questions they are asking before they "have to go". But plenty of them call me at home (just like tonight) so I will certainly ask when that happens. After all, home is MY time so I should be able to ask an OT question

One thing he did say was GI docs are more interested in t(1/2) than t(lag) because t(1/2) is specifically studied for GI malfunction. He thinks forensic pathologists would be better versed in the area of stomach contents as they relate to ToD.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Well LJ, you are going to love this. I just hung up with my favorite GI doc after a long discussion about t(lag) and t(1/2) etc. He said he finds it extrememly difficult to believe the entire meal was still in the stomach after even 3 hours. He said "No way."

He was telling me about the transit studies they do for gastroparesis and he said they feed the patient a small amount of pudding-like substance and the average time to t(1/2) is 90 minutes. He said he even checked with a pathologist after he received my email. He said "Obviously if someone ate big chunks of steak or lots of fiber it would take longer but still not 3 or 4 hours."

I asked if he thought the entire meal could have been at the end of the small intestine after, perhaps, 5 hours and he said yes but then there wouldn't have been 500cc in the stomach. So unless Meredith ate substantially an hour before dying at 11:30PM then he just doesn't see how the ToD could have even been 9:30 without having something in her small intestine.

I work with dozens of GI docs and anesthesiologists, etc. so I will keep asking around. I have mostly professional relationships with the physicians with whom I work so I will have to find the opportune time to ask as they are all so busy. Most of the time I barely have time to answer whatever questions they are asking before they "have to go". But plenty of them call me at home (just like tonight) so I will certainly ask when that happens. After all, home is MY time so I should be able to ask an OT question

One thing he did say was GI docs are more interested in t(1/2) than t(lag) because t(1/2) is specifically studied for GI malfunction. He thinks forensic pathologists would be better versed in the area of stomach contents as they relate to ToD.

This is exactly the understanding I had going into this discussion, based on Michael Baden's book as well as a number of cases I have followed where murderous husbands have had their alibis destroyed by the coroner's report. When I first heard that her stomach was completely full, I saw it as proof that she was killed right after she got home. Danceme and others have come up with research suggesting that this evidence falls short of proof, but it is still a very strong indication.

 

[christianahannah]

It seems to me that the first pre-requisite for analyzing the print on the bathmat is an accurate outline of its shape. Drawing it by hand is too subjective, in my opinion, but extracting the shape with a graphics program is a slightly tricky process.

I used Gimp to create an outline that I believe is as close to being accurate as we can get, and I have posted it at:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/footprint_outline.jpg

This is a composite of several iterations to show the method I used. On the left is the Crimescope photo of the footprint from a pdf of the police forensics report, enlarged to about twice the native resolution of the pdf. It is the basis of my outline.

Next is the image I got when I further enlarged the crimescope photo, and then selected pixels by color value with a 25% tolerance on the initial selection, reduced to a 10% tolerance to pick up the edges. I used an edge detect filter to reduce the image to a grayscale negative, which I inverted to produce the first iteration shown in my composite.

Next, I filled the area around the footprint in white, and filled the inside of the footprint in gray, using a high enough tolerance to produce the solid mass that is the second iteration in my composite.

Finally, I used the edge detection filter again and inverted the result to produce a dark line with a white background.

Thank you for the information Charlie. I could draw the outline by hand (and I promise not be subjective) but I am not sure which photos of the bath mat are from actual court documents. The photo you include in your link is from Rinaldi's report?

When I look at evidence photos of the bath mat early on November 2 is that how the bath mat looked when first encountered by Amanda and then by the police? Or has it been enhanced? The reason I ask is that when I look at enlarged photos of the bath mat (which I assume is unenhanced) I see a rounded curve to the left of the toe more than what you have done with your computer image. But that may be part of the enlargement of the photo.

 

[Machiavelli]

To continue, here's my attempt at fitting Raffaele's print. The outline is autogenerated, no hand-drawing, size of the print is set according to Rinaldi's pdf and checked with Photoshop ruler tool to be correct. Outer edge of the outline is the outer edge of the reference print.

Yes. But the in the Rinaldi pictures the reference width of Solelcito's print is 95 millimeters, the bathmat has a reference width of 99 mm, that may become possible 96-97 if the bathmat print is rotated 2-4 degrees colckwise, but not less. The scale in your drawing cannot be correct, since you have a bathmat print "narrower" than Sollecito's print while in fact it is "wider" in the reference area. As far as I can see you have demonstrated that the bathmat print doesn't belong to a yeti.

 

[Chris C]

Just like there is "zero requirement" for the prosecution to show/ prove 'motive' for a 'guilty' verdict to ensue.

Maybe someone can correct me on this. However, in the US, if you enter something into evidence as part of a motive and you later change motives, doesn't that evidence get tossed if it only applys to the motive.

 

[Chris C]

When I saw you were back beating this dead horse, treehorn, I checked LondonJohn's post, which you responded to, above. Lo and behold, right below it, I found this statement, made by you:

"I'm not heavily invested in any point."

Given your continued posts about Amanda and Raffaele's "bad reputations," I find that very hard to believe.




Amanda was not issued a citation to appear in court for rock throwing and she was not "convicted" of anything. Those facts have been proven on these pages. Any further claims to the contrary are simply irrational.

The problems with guilters in this case. They see Knox getting in trouble for a little noise polution as an early indicator of Assisted Rape and Murder.
Yet they dont see a person with numerous break ins and threatening numerous people with knives as an early indicator of breaking in a house and stabbing someone to death.
They dont care about Guede as long as Knox is in jail. If Guede walks in 5 years and changes his story to say Knox/Sollecito wasn't involved they still wouldn't believe it. To them Knox had to be involved in this crime. There is no other possibility.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

what is manga

In the August 28th edition The Economist had an article which described manga: "In Japan manga is a mainstream medium, with sales of magazines and books amounting to around $5 billion a year. Though many are juvenile, violent, or pornographic, others are intricate narratives skillfully illustrated and meant to educate as much as to entertain. They are increasingly popular abroad and starting to make their way into museum exhibitions..."

I do not know what sort of manga Raffaele Sollecito liked, but those who have cast aspersions about his character based on his fondness for this genre have not put forth any specifics of which I am aware. Therefore, this looks like more character assassination. I have previously given two reasons why Amanda Knox's date-rape short story should not be considered remarkable: it is not uncommon to see shocking elements in undergraduate fiction and her teacher specifically encouraged it. What is remarkable is the lengths to which some people will go to sling mud at these two.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Thank you for the information Charlie. I could draw the outline by hand (and I promise not be subjective) but I am not sure which photos of the bath mat are from actual court documents. The photo you include in your link is from Rinaldi's report?

When I look at evidence photos of the bath mat early on November 2 is that how the bath mat looked when first encountered by Amanda and then by the police? Or has it been enhanced? The reason I ask is that when I look at enlarged photos of the bath mat (which I assume is unenhanced) I see a rounded curve to the left of the toe more than what you have done with your computer image. But that may be part of the enlargement of the photo.

The photo I'm using came from a forensic report prepared by the Scientific Police. It was taken with a special lighting source called a Crimescope, which can produce light in specific wavelengths as well as the balanced full-spectrum lighting used for this photo. They used this lighting so they could get a clear rendering of the shape of the bloodstain. Rindaldi chose to use photos taken with ordinary lighting for his analysis, and this image is not included in his report.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

When I look at evidence photos of the bath mat early on November 2 is that how the bath mat looked when first encountered by Amanda and then by the police? Or has it been enhanced? The reason I ask is that when I look at enlarged photos of the bath mat (which I assume is unenhanced) I see a rounded curve to the left of the toe more than what you have done with your computer image. But that may be part of the enlargement of the photo.

If you look at the photo Rinaldi used for his analysis, you will see that the lighting is angled so the pile of the rug casts shadows. The lighting in the Crimescope photo is angled at 90 degrees to the surface of the rug, so nothing is hidden by shadows.

 

[samba]

Maybe someone can correct me on this. However, in the US, if you enter something into evidence as part of a motive and you later change motives, doesn't that evidence get tossed if it only applys to the motive.

Awhile ago I posted about the proposed motives in this case. The changing motives thing really bothers me. Although I guess it isn't necessary for the prosecution to provide a motive, if I were a juror I would certainly question the evidence vs. the "supposed" motive (and be extremely leery of any prosecution team that seems to be grasping).

Mignini various motives were as follows:

1. the Satanic ritual one
2. drug-fueled sex orgy gone bad
3. theft of MK's money
4. Amanda just not liking Meredith...for being prim & proper
5. Amanda being a natural born killer

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the "final" motive Mignini settled on in his closing arguments was #4. That motive sounds to me like AK would have premeditated this murder. That doesn't seem to align with the evidence...as the killing seemed to be a spontaneous act.

 

[samba]

What is the basis for this (highly dubious) assertion?

Additionally, RS had a criminal record for possession and AK had been convicted for "Residential Disturbance" pursuant to a police-issued citation in connection with a rock throwing incident.

Both also admitted to abusing street drugs to the point of memory loss.

Both also appear to have had an unusual interest in the subject of drug-related rape and/or rape-at-knife point (authoring and publishing short stories about rape/ stalking, rumors about a UW "rape prank", collecting knives, animal porn and Manga comics depticing rape at knife point).

It's absurd to suggest there were absolutely NO antecedents.

It just isn't true.

Have you got a criminal record for possession? Have the police issued you a citation to appear in court for rock throwing? Have you got a knife collection? Do you like animal porn and rape comics? Have you abused controlled substances to the point of memory loss? Are people in your home town still gossiping about a "rape prank" that you are alleged to have instigated? Have you authored or published any short stories about rape?

Pre-homicide, AK and RS were about as "wholesome" as RG.

All 3 appear to have a 'dark side' and were engaging in various forms of antisocial behavior (unlawful or otherwise) before Nov. 1/07.

What happened is an unexpected/ statistically unlikely shock, but it is flat out wrong to assert that any of the 3 accused/ convicted were without signs and symptoms of deeper problems that arguably evince a propensity for participation in a rape-prank gone awry.

You seem to be more concerned about Amanda's history than does Mignini. In his appeal asking for a tougher sentence, his response to her having a clean record is:

"The prosecution is appealing against this reasoning by saying: a clean record carries weight when an offender is of advanced age; with the offenders here being barely out of the age of minority, a clean record has little or no significance in terms of mitigation"

Even though he does mention the fine later in the appeal, he apparently feels that she has a pretty clean record. If he didn't, why did he feel that it was necessary to say that...of course she has a clean record...she's young.

 

[Fine]

Incidentally, "Part 2" of Yummi's analysis is interesting, inasmuch as it discusses what Yummi believes is a "remarkable feature" - the possible blood/water imprint of a second, smaller foot in the centre of the bath mat.

However, if this collection of stains WAS made by a footprint, the foot in question was around 180mm in length (the police ruler on the mat in the same photo is very useful in this regard!). And this corresponds to a child's foot with EUR size 28 or 29 shoe. So either Yummi believes that a young child was also involved in the murder or clean up, or it's another example of the deficiency of this analysis.

_____________________

Here's the photograph....

Looks like a smaller bloody footprint to me. (And, err, need we wonder why someone would dare suggest that there are other bloody prints on this bathmat?) Instead of contemplating the involvement of small children in Meredith's murder--- or insinuating that Machiavelli's study here shows its deficiencies--- shouldn't we just assume that the "smaller" print is partial, an incomplete impression of a person's foot? Surely there are partial impressions of something-or-other elsewhere on the bathmat.

Next question. Why has Machiavelli outlined that smaller print in PINK, of all colors? Another deficiency?

///

 

[Chris C]

_____________________

Here's the photograph....


[qimg]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1314/5106871743_cd56152216.jpg[/qimg]

Looks like a smaller bloody footprint to me. (And, err, need we wonder why someone would dare suggest that there are other bloody prints on this bathmat?) Instead of contemplating the involvement of small children in Meredith's murder--- or insinuating that Machiavelli's study here shows its deficiencies--- shouldn't we just assume that the "smaller" print is partial, an incomplete impression of a person's foot? Surely there are partial impressions of something-or-other elsewhere on the bathmat.

Next question. Why has Machiavelli outlined that smaller print in PINK, of all colors? Another deficiency?

///

I'm guessing the reason it wasnt entered into evidence as a smaller foot is because the defense would have chewed that theory to pieces. Mainly because that imprint would have to be a right foot not a left foot. Plus who would you match it to. If that foot print turns out too be to long or too small for knoxs then you have to add another unidentified person to the mix. With the bloody print that said belonged to Sollecito part of the heal is missing so you can't get a length. That one if you claim as a footprint you can get a length. So if you want to claim it as knoxs, compare its length to Amanda's and see if it matches. Plus I'm pure guessing, but Im sure the prosecution tried to make it look like knox's and failed.

 

[Mary_H]

You seem to be more concerned about Amanda's history than does Mignini. In his appeal asking for a tougher sentence, his response to her having a clean record is:

"The prosecution is appealing against this reasoning by saying: a clean record carries weight when an offender is of advanced age; with the offenders here being barely out of the age of minority, a clean record has little or no significance in terms of mitigation"

Even though he does mention the fine later in the appeal, he apparently feels that she has a pretty clean record. If he didn't, why did he feel that it was necessary to say that...of course she has a clean record...she's young.

Excellent point, samba.

 

[RoseMontague]

This is what I can only describe as a blog rant against the new book by Rocco and the criticism of the Italian justice system by the US.

http://translate.google.com/transla.../blog.libero.it/lavocedimegaride/9421772.html

I thought this response by the Italy USA Foundation was interesting:

Thank you for your communication, but unfortunately we can not take action on messages of people with obvious disorders and behavioral problems for which we would like to suggest a path psychotherapeutic at specialized facilities. Thank you for contacting the Foundation USA Italy.

 

[Withnail1969]

The theory has been posited elsewhere that Rudy Guede could not possibly have left the bloody barefoot print in the bathroom. This is because he was wearing shoes during the actual murder in Meredith's room.

Of course, if someone is wearing shoes, it is impossible for that person to take off their shoes. If someone was wearing shoes in one room, then they must have been wearing shoes in another.

Whoever left the footprint can't have been Rudy Guede because Rudy was wearing shoes. Therefore the footprint must be Rafaelle Sollecito's. But he must have arrived at the cottage barefoot, because it wouldn't have been possible for him to take his shoes off at the cottage.

 

[RoseMontague]

The theory has been posited elsewhere that Rudy Guede could not possibly have left the bloody barefoot print in the bathroom. This is because he was wearing shoes during the actual murder in Meredith's room.

Of course, if someone is wearing shoes, it is impossible for that person to take off their shoes. If someone was wearing shoes in one room, then they must have been wearing shoes in another.

Whoever left the footprint can't have been Rudy Guede because Rudy was wearing shoes. Therefore the footprint must be Rafaelle Sollecito's. But he must have arrived at the cottage barefoot, because it wouldn't have been possible for him to take his shoes off at the cottage.

The reasoning on this is worthy of Massei, anyone entering the flat would probably have shoes on and to make a bare print would have to take shoes off. I think Dan's theory on this bathmat print is the most likely scenario that I have seen thus far.

 

[Withnail1969]

The reasoning on this is worthy of Massei, anyone entering the flat would probably have shoes on and to make a bare print would have to take shoes off. I think Dan's theory on this bathmat print is the most likely scenario that I have seen thus far.

Clearly Rudy made the print during his quick cleanup of his jeans and sneakers. I don't see how Rudy could have effectively rinsed the blood off his (white?) tennis shoes without taking them off. And there's certainly no way he could have left the cottage obviously covered in blood.

One way or another, Rudy left the print during the partial cleanup which he already admitted to doing. No mystery.

Did Dan O say that Rudy had to run back to Meredith's room to get the keys to get out after finding the front door locked? If so, that makes total sense.