Public Education is a Socialist Monopoly

[Startz]

While on average teachers earn less than other college graduates, there are a small number of schoool districts that pay teachers fairly well. The median pay in Scarsdale, NY (an extremely affluent NYC suburb) was $116,000 as of a couple years ago.

If you look at student test scores, adjust for state median income, and compare against per student spending you find a slightly negative correlation. If you do the same looking at the effect of teacher salaries relative to median college-educated earnings in a state, you find a strong positive correlation. Although controlling for confounding variables is extraordinarily difficult, this does suggest that simply increasing spending is not terribly effective but that increasing teacher salaries does improve student outcomes.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Ha, ha, ha...be as jealous as you want to be. I have my $86,000 a year salary, 14 weeks paid vacation a year and a 7 hour work day.

Despite the insults slung around by the OP, I think it worth mentioning that I actually teach 11 months of the year. That's because I also teach every summer at the local community college, so I'm also a college professor in addition to being a high school instructor.

Yup, every year when we get to the last day of school (on a Friday) at my high school, I'm starting my preparations for my college course, which starts the following Monday. So my break is exactly... one weekend.

Wow, I'm such a slacker

To the OP: have you ever taught?

 

[MattusMaximus]

I read through all of this, and made a tick on a piece of paper every time jonathan quick posted an alternative to public schools.

My blank piece of paper tells me he doesn't have a particularly strong case. Adios, thread.

Actually, to be fair, he did say that he thought school vouchers was a viable alternative. So he's NOT okay with public money going to public schools, but he is okay with taxpayer dollars going to private institutions. So if the taxpayers are still paying for it, how is it NOT "socialism", exactly?

Seems to me the OP just wants a different kind of socialism.

 

[MattusMaximus]

i'm not sure that teachers graduated in the bottom third of their class, but have seen data on the GRE scores of their education professors that are dismaying.

This is a valid criticism of the teacher education system, in my opinion. One area which is in dire need of reform is better standards for prospective teachers. I cannot tell you how sick I got of hearing other teaching candidates in my program going on about how education was "such an easy major."

Of course, they took the easy road, got a less than impressive degree, and now many cannot find work or got substandard positions. However, I - with my advanced degree (M.S. in physics) and community college experience (I started to teach at the CC level before I was certified at the HS level) - got a damn good teaching position because I was a good candidate who didn't take the easy, slacker road.

See? Within the parameters of the public education system, the free market works

To my earlier point about lousy teacher preparation in university programs, I think that is partly the fault of education professors who foster such a lackadaisical environment. Change is really needed at that level, but I don't know how to institute it.

 

[Craig4]

So publicly funded public schools are socialist and publicly funded (through vouchers) private schools aren't?

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

"25% of public school teachers in Washington and Baltimore send their children to private schools." -

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/sep/22/20040922-122847-5968r/

Can't you teachers do ANY of your own homework?

Pathetic.

Grade "F" for all of you.

Wait a minute, I thought private schools didn't exist in the United States?

You did after all, say that public schools have a socialist monopoly on education.

Maybe you should learn what words mean before you use them in thread titles.

Also, how do you account for the fact that all the nations which outrank us in education also primarily use a public education program?

 

[Francesca R]

Nobel Laureate Milton Friedman campaigned tirelessly on behalf of kids getting a better education. His interim solution was school vouchers.

Not only do you quote mine Friedman out of context; then you attribute something to the fellow that you can't support.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

By the way, Jonathan, for an FYI

There's simply no reason to be so nasty. I don't know if a liberal killed your puppy when you were a kid or something, but there's just no need for the sort of language and anger you have expressed since joining JREF.

This is supposed to be a place of learning and dialogue, and though discussions of course get animated, people like you who are intent on starting off angry, completely unprovoked, really poison the well and just unnecessarily spread negativity.


Just because someone thinks differently than you doesn't mean you have to hate them. I'm a tree hugging vegetarian left leaning agnostic married to a thestic, right leaning war veteran who was raised on a cattle ranch, and we are madly in love. I've always had plenty of friends on both sides of the political spectrum.

It really makes me sad when I encounter people like you who just have so much hate for people just because they think differently than you do.

The big difference between you and me is that though I'm left leaning and you obviously are hard right, I don't consider the connotation "right" to be an insult just because it doesn't represent my personal ideology.

 

[Weak Kitten]

Just because someone thinks differently than you doesn't mean you have to hate them. I'm a tree hugging vegetarian left leaning agnostic married to a thestic, right leaning war veteran who was raised on a cattle ranch, and we are madly in love. I've always had plenty of friends on both sides of the political spectrum.

Wow, that's great. Are you one of those nice vegetarians who lets others eat meat around them and doesn't make faces or anything? Actually, I've know a lot of vegetarians like that.

Myself, I married a registered Republican who works as an accountant for the county. He is a sad accountant because it seems that the leading Republicans currently have all the economic understanding of a rabbit in matting season. We often talk about hoping that the moderate Republicans will leave the party and form some sort of fiscal responsibility party.

Anyway, the point is that the posters here have diverse viewpoints and backgrounds. It is wrong to assume that everyone arguing to keep schools publicly funded is a raging liberal.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Wow, that's great. Are you one of those nice vegetarians who lets others eat meat around them and doesn't make faces or anything? Actually, I've know a lot of vegetarians like that.

I cook meat for my husband all the time.

I don't think eating meat is in and of itself wrong, though I do think the conditions of factory farms are deplorable and morally wrong. My husband's family owns a wonderful free range black angus beef cattle ranch, and the cows are very well treated and have vast, wide open spaces to roam about in.

I personally love animals so much that I just don't want to eat them, but I don't think anyone else should feel compelled to feel that way.

I'm very much a "to each his own" kind of person.

And I also agree with you that it is quite silly to suggest that only liberals are for public education. I came from an upper middle class community with both liberals and conservatives alike, and there were plenty kids of conservatives at public school who could have easily been sent to private ones. It's just like, as I said earlier, our public school was simply better than any of the private ones around, minus Cushing Academy, the boarding school, so why would they have?

 

[JonathanQuick]

Despite the insults slung around by the OP, I think it worth mentioning that I actually teach 11 months of the year.

My wife was a teacher for years. Years. Teachers' contracts typically call for ~180 work days a year. Anything more than that, and you get extra pay, don't you.

Now as to "insults," I have attended school board meetings where teachers called anyone who didn't march in lockstep with them "Nazis."

Teachers always portray themselves as martyrs, "dedicated" is a favorite term. Ah yes, "dedicated." So unquantifiable, so immaterial. A "dedicated" incompetent is still worthless.

Now on to your next point(s).

That's because I also teach every summer at the local community college, so I'm also a college professor in addition to being a high school instructor.

Color me impressed. Ward Churchill was a college professor as well.
So is Nicholas DeGenova, of similar infamy. Oh and don't forget Bill Ayers, the terrorist.

Yup, every year when we get to the last day of school (on a Friday) at my high school, I'm starting my preparations for my college course, which starts the following Monday. So my break is exactly... one weekend.

Please, I need my hankerchief. You're making me cry. I mean, compared to those overpaid slackers in American uniforms in Iraq and Afghanistan, you're something very special.

Wow, I'm such a slacker

To the OP: have you ever taught?

Have you ever earned combat pay, and heard incoming?

It is almost a requirement to be a card-carrying Leftist in order to teach.
All others are ostracized, not tolerated. They do not comport to the socialist mentality as so elegantly described by Harvard Professor, Ruth Wisse, in her Wall Street Journal article: The Herd of Independent Minds

 

[excaza]

Yeah, you're clearly interested in rational, civilized discussion.

 

[JonathanQuick]

By the way, Jonathan, for an FYI

There's simply no reason to be so nasty. I don't know if a liberal killed your puppy when you were a kid or something, but there's just no need for the sort of language and anger you have expressed since joining JREF.

Please, quote my nastiest language.

While I wait to read your impression of whatever I said that was so nasty, these are a few of my favorite compliments from Leftists:

"It used to be **** (rhymes with "Nick") and ****** (rhymes with "bigger"), but now it's 'tax cut'." - Charles Rangel, liberal, New York

"The extra chromosome right wing." - Former Vice President, Al Gore, who flunked out of Vanderbilt Divinity School

"fascists, Nazis, racists, greedy rich, flat earthers, brain dead, right wing religious extremists, anti-science...."

This is supposed to be a place of learning and dialogue, and though discussions of course get animated, people like you who are intent on starting off angry, completely unprovoked, really poison the well and just unnecessarily spread negativity.

I quoted a union boss, and a Nobel Laureate. Naturally their words infuriate you. Naturally. But hate speech from a fellow Lefty... not a blink from you.
Only complete agreement.

Where's your integrity?

Just because someone thinks differently than you doesn't mean you have to hate them. I'm a tree hugging vegetarian left leaning agnostic married to a thestic, right leaning war veteran who was raised on a cattle ranch, and we are madly in love. I've always had plenty of friends on both sides of the political spectrum.

And you've always thought of, if not called, Dan Quayle "stupid," and Ronald Reagan "stupid" and George Bush "stupid."

When have you EVER rebuked a fellow Leftist for their hate speech?

Be honest, all of you. Think about that one even if you cannot or will not answer it openly here.

It is your assignment for the day.

It really makes me sad when I encounter people like you who just have so much hate for people just because they think differently than you do.

Let me repeat: I opened by quoting a Nobel Laureate. You're calling a distinguished professor hateful? You're calling a teachers' union president hateful?

Wait a minute. On that last note, I really do agree with you. The only trouble is, Albert Shanker was behaving in a hateful manner towards the kids.

The big difference between you and me is that though I'm left leaning and you obviously are hard right, I don't consider the connotation "right" to be an insult just because it doesn't represent my personal ideology.

How about "neocon"?
How about "right wing religious extremist"?
How about "clinging to their Bibles and guns"?
You know, those things your beloved husband clings to?
The very things our Founding Fathers clung to.

And speaking of agnostics and their kindred, how about that love-child, Richard Dawkins, huh! Even his fellow evolutionist said, "Dawkins book, The God Delusion, makes me embarrassed to be an atheist."

"The Pope is evil." - atheist Richard Dawkins in one of his many e-mails to me

Truly a bitter, hateful, and very petty man, Dawkins. Oh, and a teacher.

 

[Cleon]

They do not comport to the socialist mentality as so elegantly described by Harvard Professor, Ruth Wisse, in her Wall Street Journal article: The Herd of Independent Minds

Weird, how teachers and professors are everything wrong with the world until you find one that agrees with you. You're not going to compare her with DeGenova, Ayers, or Churchill? I wonder why not.

 

[excaza]

So, Jonathan, when did you want to dispense with your idiotic ranting and actually discuss education?

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Please, quote my nastiest language.

This was already done in #25, but I'll repost:

Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
Say, you're not a Democrat, are you?
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...facts matter little to those on the left.
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
The left... ...One such leftist...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...how the left reviled President Bush... But when a lefty does likewise...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...typical of the left...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...the left, which category clearly includes you...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
Yes indeed, condescension and arrogance are always "perfectly valid" to you leftists.
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
The left is always eager to rewrite history.... ...too goofy for even leftists. ...whom leftists choose to ignore... Riddle me that, lefty.
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...any leftist or atheist... ...expect non-answers from the left. ...spin for the left...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...your many leftist pals...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...leftists and atheists put their words and their prejudices...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...he classified himself as a liberal.... ...a "compassionate" (ha, ha, ha) liberal... ...liberal mantra...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...leftists would use against me... ...which leftists pretend I cannot... ...He calls himself a liberal... ...liberal John Kerry...
A. San Franciscans make much, much more than Kansans, and
B. San Franciscans are liberals, and Kansans are conservatives.
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
Leftists should read... ... and other lefties who are almost always quite hateful.
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...never a fellow liberal... ...a lifelong atheist...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...The problem with leftists...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
"Public education is a socialist monopoly, a real one." - Milton Friedman
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...No, leftists are wrong. Barack Obama, the pathological narcissist and destructive socialist, is wrong.
Albert Einstein was wrong when he rejected science in favor of his atheist dogma.
Leftists who promote and support the butchering of innocent, unborn babies are not just wrong, but evil.
...the latest criminal enterprise of the greedy left...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
Spoken like a true liberal... ... liberal lessons...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...the left has reviled and ridiculed... ...a LEFTIST, like you... ...your fellow leftists. ...double standard by the left? Ready, march: Left, left, left left left.
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...all marching in absolute lockstep...
Originally Posted by JonathanQuick
...your pal and fellow liberal...

Name-calling is the sine qua non of liberal argumentation....

It is truly sad that you throw out "left" as an insult. You seem to be downright obsessed with leftists. Using "left" as a perjorative indicates that you think merely not thinking like yourself is enough to denegrate someone.

I can't believe you don't classify your posted remarks as "nasty." Is it really just that you hate leftists so much that you think anything horrible you say about them is not offensive because it's simply true? It would be the equivilent of saying such things to Nazis, or the KKK, groups that are so horrible that any bad thing you say about them is appropriate because it is a given fact they are evil?

While I wait to read your impression of whatever I said that was so nasty, these are a few of my favorite compliments from Leftists:

"It used to be **** (rhymes with "Nick") and ****** (rhymes with "bigger"), but now it's 'tax cut'." - Charles Rangel, liberal, New York

"The extra chromosome right wing." - Former Vice President, Al Gore, who flunked out of Vanderbilt Divinity School

"fascists, Nazis, racists, greedy rich, flat earthers, brain dead, right wing religious extremists, anti-science...."





I quoted a union boss, and a Nobel Laureate. Naturally their words infuriate you. Naturally. But hate speech from a fellow Lefty... not a blink from you.
Only complete agreement.

Where's your integrity?




And you've always thought of, if not called, Dan Quayle "stupid," and Ronald Reagan "stupid" and George Bush "stupid."

When have you EVER rebuked a fellow Leftist for their hate speech?Be honest, all of you. Think about that one even if you cannot or will not answer it openly here.

It is your assignment for the day.



Let me repeat: I opened by quoting a Nobel Laureate. You're calling a distinguished professor hateful? You're calling a teachers' union president hateful?

Wait a minute. On that last note, I really do agree with you. The only trouble is, Albert Shanker was behaving in a hateful manner towards the kids.



How about "neocon"?
How about "right wing religious extremist"?
How about "clinging to their Bibles and guns"?
You know, those things your beloved husband clings to?
The very things our Founding Fathers clung to.

And speaking of agnostics and their kindred, how about that love-child, Richard Dawkins, huh! Even his fellow evolutionist said, "Dawkins book, The God Delusion, makes me embarrassed to be an atheist."

"The Pope is evil." - atheist Richard Dawkins in one of his many e-mails to me

Truly a bitter, hateful, and very petty man, Dawkins. Oh, and a teacher.

There are few things more desperate than justifying your own hatred by pointing out that of others. Of course there are hateful people on the left. You ask, "When have you ever called out a felow leftist for their hate speach?"

Why do you assume that I don't? have you checked my entire posting history? I actually do this on a regular basis here on JREF when people write things which denegrate all religious people, or all right wingers. I don't think they're any less guilty of bad behavior than you are. I also comment negatively on stories posted on JREF about leftists making such offensive or inflamatory comments. For instance, recently there was a thread about how Dawkins even criticized the "X-Files" as being anti skeptic and pro-woo, and I wrote about how I think he has a serious victim mentality issue. I've never been a fan of Dawkins, never read any of his books, only a couple articles.

Again, you're bigotry is showing. you assume oh, I'm a leftist. That means I apologize for all leftists and never call out their hate speech, when actually, I do this very regularly, as my posting history shows.

Why does the fact that angry liberals exist somehow justify your own behavior? Since joining JREF, your posts have been nothing but angry and negative.

I could easily find just as hateful quotes by conservatives as you can by liberals, but I would never use that as an excuse to use "conservative" or "right" as a perjorative term, nor do I go on lengthy rants about how much I hate conservatives and blame them for everything.

So your response to negativitiy is to be as negative as possible? And to be negative to people here, who have nothing to do with Dawkins or Gore or any of those people? You decide that because you can find leftists who say nasty stuff, you owe it to the universe to hate all leftists? It's not like this somehow balances things out. All it does is create even more negativity.

I was beaten and sexually assaulted in college. I have absolutely no hatred in me for men simply because a minority of men commit sexual assaults and one did so to me. But you, all it takes is someone saying nasty names (and not even to you directly, just in general), and that's all it takes for you to hate all liberals, use the word left as if it equals evil, and makes you incapable of talking about anything else except how liberals are destroying the universe?

Do you think I have the right to beat and sexually assault men, because one did so to me? Would the man who assaulted me have been justified if he had even been abused by a woman?

If not, how can you argue that a few liberals saying bad things makes it okay for you to be a mean, hateful person to all liberals?

Seriously man, the people here have nothing to do with any of the people whose quotes you put up here. Al Gore and Dawkins mean nothing to me. Al Gore I don't have any feelings towards one way or another, Dawkins I actively don't like. I can find stuff ten times worse from Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and a million other right wingers, and I don't go around saying "this is how all rightists act" "the greedy right" "Yes indeed, condescension and arrogance are always "perfectly valid" to you rightests."

The people who are most vocal on either side of the political isle are, in general, the least representative of the majority of viewpoints. Most people, right, left, in between, are moderates. But moderates don't get news stories about them because they don't use inflammatory language which causes the media to take notice. The fact that you go out of your way to search for the most offensive aspects of the left and then use that as justification to paint ALL leftists as arrogant and condenscending and greedy is just very very sad.

Also, your point about don't I care about people insulting my husband with being denegrated by leftists. My husband has lived in Massachusetts for years, in one of the most liberal areas of not only Massachusetts in the nation. He is very vocal about his political views. He has never been treated with anything but respect by any liberals he has encountered. He has never been insulted. He has never received anything but accolades and appreciation for his military service. So I don't need to worry about him, because thankfully, out of the hundreds of liberals he has spoken with regarding his political views, not a one of them has been the left wing version of you.

But guess who threatened to disown him and called him a disgrace when he got home from Iraq and decided he no longer supported the war effort and thought Iraq had been a horrible mistake? Guess who told him he was a traitor and a failure because he had a political opinion which differed from their own? His conservative parents.

If the fact that "someone in their group said something offensive" is all it takes to make you hate a group in total, why don't you hate the right, as you could just as easily find equally offensive statements on their side as well?

Why do you hate, Jonathan? Why is it that I can get beaten and assaulted and not have one ounce of bitterness in me, but you can't hear some news story about some leftist saying something stupid without going apoplectic and becoming enraged at all leftists?

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

By the way, I expect an apology for you saying I never call out leftists when I do this all the time. If you demand proof, let me know and I will easily post you the dozens if not hundreds of posts I have written doing so, both calling out leftist posters for their hate speech, and condemning hate speech posted here on JREF that is attributed to leftist figures.

Also, you seem to assume that no leftists do this, ever. I can provide plenty of posts not just from myself, but from fellow leftists calling out other leftists for saying inflamatory and hateful things about the right.

You owe this forum an apology. You are a new member here and you know nothing about us. You've just decided, in your bigotry, that simply knowing we are leftists means you know everything about us and how we operate.

This is not some MSNBC or Fox News message board. This is a web site for critical thinkers. Though we do, unfortunately, get people like you from both sides of the political isle, there are plenty of right wingers here who defend leftists against hate speech by the right, and plenty of leftists who defend right wingers against hate speech by the left. I can also find plenty of religious people defending non religious people, and I can find non religious people defending religious people.

Recently there was an atheist member who made a public apology and temporarily quit JREF because he had made some very offensive statements against all Christians, and he was so thoroughly chastised by other JREFers (some of his loudest detractors being atheists) that he felt shamed at his behavior.


Which again, is why it makes me sad when people like you insist on joining up on JREF. You don't appreciate the atmosphere of respect and dialogue we seek to accomplish here, and you want to turn this place into some juvenile cable news political showdown.

Please stop trying to ruin this web site. We haven't done anything to you, we don't deserve the vitriol you are dispensing here.

[This forum] is SUPPOSED to consist of intelligent discussions, not petty name-calling...

Are you serious? You've got less than 50 posts on JREF, and yet we were able to identify you insulting leftists just for being leftists over two dozen times. You posting history here is 100% negative and insulting. What's more, you are a liar who states that all us leftists have never called out other leftists, and that we are "in complete agreement" with any leftist hate speech we hear. You don't even have 50 posts, and those posts consist of little more than name calling and lying, and you have the nerve to lecture others about intelligent discussions?

 

[Craig4]

"25% of public school teachers in Washington and Baltimore send their children to private schools." -

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/sep/22/20040922-122847-5968r/

Can't you teachers do ANY of your own homework?

Pathetic.

Grade "F" for all of you.

You may be making an unfounded assumption about the value any of us place in your assessment. So about that alternative, will you be offering one?

 

[MattusMaximus]

<... garbled crazy rant deleted... >

It is almost a requirement to be a card-carrying Leftist in order to teach.
All others are ostracized, not tolerated. They do not comport to the socialist mentality as so elegantly described by Harvard Professor, Ruth Wisse, in her Wall Street Journal article: The Herd of Independent Minds

Wow, you should tell that to all of my colleagues who identify openly as conservative Republicans, with some of whom I have very good personal relationships. Who also, by the way, support the union.

I guess they're just "traitors"

 

[MattusMaximus]

You may be making an unfounded assumption about the value any of us place in your assessment. So about that alternative, will you be offering one?

His solution is school vouchers - which is another form of socialism. Take money from the taxpayers and have the government give it to private institutions, but the source is still compulsory payments by the taxpayers.

Hence, according to his own arguments, it is socialism