Public Education is a Socialist Monopoly

[excaza]

I thought I made some good points about the unintended consequences of switching to a private system.

Vouchers will only work if there is some sort of price control to makes certain that in every area there is a school that can be completely paid for by the voucher. Otherwise we return to my earlier point of poor families being unable to pay leading to juvenile delinquency, a rise in crime and damage to the greater economic system.

Why do you hate capitalism? Why do you want to rob this country of a cheap, educated workforce?

Didn't you see? Obama! Clinton! Gore! Liberals! Hypocrisy!

 

[blutoski]

I thought I made some good points about the unintended consequences of switching to a private system.

Vouchers will only work if there is some sort of price control to makes certain that in every area there is a school that can be completely paid for by the voucher.

What I've seen in regions that use the voucher system is that they do market segment in such a way that the voucher is essentially price-setting.

That is: if the voucher is for $5,000/yr and a private school obtains efficiencies to operate at $4,000/yr, they will still be able to charge $5,000/yr because that's what most parents have in their pockets when they're shopping around.

My guess is that this would be common. Profits can be obtained through either increasing prices or decreasing costs. If a voucher creates a dominant price ceiling, these schools are highly motivated to control costs to increase their margins. ie: provide the minimum services necessary to preserve accreditation, and every penny withdrawn from providing education to children can be pocketed as dividends. The more the better.

And this is not specific to voucher systems or government initiatives... As an example, here in BC when an insurance company adds a rider for chiropractic treatments and limit it to a $50-per-visit and max 10 visits, chiropractors suddenly start charging $50-per-visit and say that the patient's complaint will take exactly 10 visits to treat. It's just ordinary product marketing.

 

[Weak Kitten]

What I've seen in regions that use the voucher system is that they do market segment in such a way that the voucher is essentially price-setting.

That is: if the voucher is for $5,000/yr and a private school obtains efficiencies to operate at $4,000/yr, they will still be able to charge $5,000/yr because that's what most parents have in their pockets when they're shopping around.

My guess is that this would be common. Profits can be obtained through either increasing prices or decreasing costs. If a voucher creates a cost ceiling, these schools are highly motivated to control costs to increase their margins. ie: provide the minimum services necessary to preserve accreditation.

Thank you. That is a well thought out and reasonable response to my questions and concerns.

It is nice to see that this did work out in some locations. I would like to see it tested in a variety of locations including impoverished areas before we turn over to a totally new system. However, I'm glad to see someone bring an actual successful test to the discussion.

Also, do not dismiss the value of sociology majors. They are often the ones who are trained to look for unintended consequences in systems. If you tell them what your rewards system is they will tell you the behavior you are likely to get, and sometimes it is not the behavior you actually wanted.

 

[uruk]

Please, please, enough with the "free-market forces at work."

1. Your pal, uruk, claims to have graduated Suma (SIC) cum laude:

"Yea, I want to work there. I've been teaching at a local community college for eleven years and my salary is only $60,000. And I graduated Suma cum laude "

Pretty funny. Roll your eyes on that one, physicist.

Wow, miss hitting the "m" key a second time and they jump down your throat. You sound like my 5th grade english teacher.

2. You work 9 months, not 11 1/2. Adjust for that. You're good at math.

I work year 'round jack. Ever heard of summer semesters? And I attend training semenars in the interim. My wife is getting upset because our vacations are usually postponed because of the training seminars.

3. Granted that physicists are much more intelligent than the average teacher. What then do you do to try to get rid of the dross? Nothing is probably a good guess. Your union won't let you do a damn thing.

"No child left behind" is not the teacher's nor the union's fault. I believe a President with the initials H.W.B initiated that piece of crap legislation. teachers would love to fail a student who is not passing thier class, but you have to look at the reasons for the student's performance. is it the teachers fault or maybe it could be the student who rather text his/her buddies than listen to the teacher who is at fault. Special interest groups and parent's lawyers limit what the teacher can do to a student who is obstinate. And foolish legislation like what "No child left behind" degraded to means that teachers can't fail the student either. So why are you blaming the teacher for this?

If the student is failing all of his classes, then I'd say it is a fair bet that it is the student's fault. if all of a teachers students are failing, then I'd say maybe the teacher is at fault. The world is not a simple place. There could also be other reasons than the dumb student/bad teacher paradigm.

Kids are stuck with incompetents all over America.

Incompetent teachers are usualy weeded out during the probation period. But nothing is perfect, some will get through, but these are a small percentage. You will run the gamut of poor to mediocre to superior teachers. We all can't be superior teachers just like we all can't be rich. So you want only superior teachers then? Ok how about only superior doctors and chemical engineers and CEO's and actors and musicians and politicians can only work. Would that peachy utopia be more to your liking? Good luck finding it.

4. Finally, why don't you put in your application for a job earning MORE than
$8,888.88 a month, plus all the cushy benefits teachers get. I'll bet you $10,000 you can't find such a job in 90 days.

Come again? My pay check is only $3,000 a month.
Do you want to try the "cushy"'' job of teaching for a year or two? Be my guest.

See, I wagered two leftists a few years ago when they shot their mouths off.
The first was Ken Minyard, a retiring talk show host. He called all conservatives "stupid." I offered to pay for IQ tests for both of us, and the loser would pay the winner $10,000. Big Mouth Ken passed.

Then fat boy Josh Mankewicz of NBC, I believe, said the same thing in an e-mail to me. I made that offer to tubby, and he passed.

My last test came in at 135 or 140, I can't recall which.

I guess that's what he got for painting people and professions with a broad brush, huh.

But as a chemical engineer, I have respect for other science grads. For education and sociology majors, feminist studies, ethnic studies, basket weaving, and so forth, not so much.

So I guess the world should only be the way you want it to be. Sorry buddy but the world is far bigger and there are far more people in it than the world you have pictured in your head.

We all have to compromise.

 

[uruk]

"25% of public school teachers in Washington and Baltimore send their children to private schools." -

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/sep/22/20040922-122847-5968r/

Can't you teachers do ANY of your own homework?

Pathetic.

Grade "F" for all of you.

I think 25% percent of teachers in washington and Baltimore does not constitute all the teachers in the U.S. Thousands do, thousands more don't. Even if you look at Washinton and Baltimore only one quarter of teachers send thier kids to private school. 75% don't.

 

[Jeff Corey]

i'm not sure that teachers graduated in the bottom third of their class, but have seen data on the GRE scores of their education professors that are dismaying.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I'll just bet you are.

Nobel Laureate Milton Friedman campaigned tirelessly on behalf of kids getting a better education. His interim solution was school vouchers.

Call it "school choice" - you know, like Bill and Hillary Clinton practiced, by sending Chelsea to Sidwell Friend's School.

By the way, Al and Tipper Gore sent their precious kids there as well.

And you'll NEVER guess where Barack Obama and Michelle "I've never been proud of America" send their kids.

Incidentally, isn't it the pinnacle of hypocrisy that thousands of public school teachers send their kids to... private schools...... while preaching exactly the opposite.

The two top ranked schools in Boston are Boston Latin and Brookline High, which are both public, but very well funded. They are also very high ranked on a national level. Now Boston Latin, you have to place into, and Brookline High is in a wealthy community. Isn't it likely that both funding of schools and the socioeconomic conditions the kids come from plays a huge part, and you are overhyping the "public" vs "private" aspect of it?

I went to public high school in a Boston suburb. My parents (who are very well off financially) looked into sending me to private school because we were Catholic and they liked the idea of me getting a Catholic education. Every private Catholic high school in the area was rated far lower than my public high school (which isn't to say they were bad, not just as good as ours). In fact, the only private school (not even Catholic) they could find that outranked my high school was a boarding school, and they didn't want to send me to boarding school. Thus, I stayed at public school, where I received an excellent education.

Massachusetts is very highly ranked in education because in our state we VALUE education. Us New Englanders are infamous bookworms who just love to learn. This is in both public and private schools. I'd put our top public schools against anything but the most elite private schools in many other states any day of the week.


Which isn't to say this is true across the board, or that there are no problems with public education, just to make that clear. I'm just arguing that being a private school doesn't inherently make you better than a public school, and that I find your argument that a well funded public school with a multitude of resources has no advantage over some dilapidated school where the kids are sharing a handful of decades old resources does not make sense to me, especially given my experience and knowledge of well funded Mass. public schools which are highly ranked and beat out private schools in the area.

I'm confused.

I took an art adult education course at Brookline High in Massachusetts, which is a public school, but in a wealthy community, and very well funded. This high school has up to date computer labs that trains students on a vast variety of computer pograms, with plenty of computers so each student can have their own during labs. They have scientific laborities with an enormous amounts of resources so that students are able to do a huge range of experiments. Their textbooks are up to date. For their arts program, they have an entire builing JUST for arts. It is loaded with many, many art supplies, like what you'd see at a small university, as well as a huge array of musical instruments. They also have a building just for sports, and they have a pool, a gym, a great field, and plenty of sports equipment to go around to all the students.

Is the OP honestly suggesting that this school has no advantage over a school in a ghetto that has five kids sharing one textbook that's ten years out of date, which has only a handful of out of date computers with no modern computer programs, and a school with little to know sports or arts resources because they simply can't afford it? Is he HONESTLY arguing a kid in a poor school where you've got 30 kids sharing 2 40 year old microscopes is not at a disadvantage compared to a student who has a wide array of modern scientific devices with which he can do advanced laboratory testing?

Of course money doesn't solve everything.

But, Jonathan, since you seem to be unaware of this fact, you should know that money can actually be exchanged for goods and services. These services include resources which are necessary to teach students things. You can lecture a kid on how to use JAVA all you want, but unless you have a computer to show them how to do it, it's probably not going to sink in.

any response to this?

 

[Alt+F4]

Come to think of it, if teaching in a public school were such a cushy job, as so many critics claim, then how come so few of these critics want to teach? They'd be fools not to take advantage of such a "cushy" situation, wouldn't they?

Good point.

 

[Alt+F4]

Grade "F" for all of you.

Ha, ha, ha...be as jealous as you want to be. I have my $86,000 a year salary, 14 weeks paid vacation a year and a 7 hour work day.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

My sister-in-law who works serving lunches at a local school, got an email today saying the Orange County Register is doing a story on school employee salaries and under the FOIA, they are handing over all salary information from the district. Not by name, just position, years worked and salary. I expect the right-leaning paper is doing an "expose" on overpaid school employees.

 

[stokes234]

I read through all of this, and made a tick on a piece of paper every time jonathan quick posted an alternative to public schools.

My blank piece of paper tells me he doesn't have a particularly strong case. Adios, thread.

 

[uruk]

"Share!" This is the siren song of the Left.
"Share!"

WWJD? I mean, isn't it a christian ideal?

Except in giving kids a decent education, that is.

No sharing there. Only obeisance to teachers' unions.

Sorry, I'm not union, niether is my wife. Her hands are tied by parents, lawyers, special interest groups, apathetic and corrupt school boards, and short sighted, simple minded, pie-in-the-sky legislation.

The dropout rate in inner city public schools is horrific, not that you give a damn.

Actualy we do. But the reasons for the dropouts have more to do with socio-economic reasons than it does with the schools or teachers.

The nuns do. Private schools do. And they do a far better job of educating kids.

Hey it's nice not to have your hands tied by special interest groups, parents with lawyers and mindless legislation.

THAT is why public school teachers send THEIR kids to private schools,

Do you think the amount of violence and drugs in the schools might also might also be a factor?

Are violence drugs and gang activity also the teachers and union's fault? Is the local economy the teachers fault? Is the local culture the teacher's fault? Are apathetic parents the teachers fault? Are children that are emotionaly disturbed due to domestic neglect and abuse the teacher's fault? Is learning disabilities due to fetal drug and alcohol syndrome the teachers fault? Is a student who gets no discipline at home and has no respect for authority the teachers fault?

Is everything wrong with the school system the sole fault of the teachers in your mind? You need to get a reality check and look at ALL the issues, not just cherry pick the ones that support your world view or agenda. Don't be so purposfully small minded.

The real world is a much more complex and complicated world than you can possibly concieve.

~snip~

"Selfless." Yeah. How "selfless" teachers are when they say one thing and do exactly the opposite, claiming that vouchers would cripple public education.

You think being a teacher is a cushy, easy job? Then you have obviously never been a teacher.
Ever been yelled at nose to nose by a parent who is screaming at you that her little Johnny is failing because you are a bad teacher and that her Johnny is a saint would never neglect his homework and is a good boy dispite the fact that "little johnny" obstinately refuses to do any work, tears up assignements, habitualy skips class, constantly disprupts class and hurles epithets at you all class long and there is nothing you can do about it. ( Do you know what the definition of a sociopath is?)

You can't yell back at him, you can't administer corporal punishment, you can't fail him, you can't "shame' him, If you send him to the principal, the principal send him right back, The parent constantly ignores your request for interventions and meetings, Your write ups are ignored by the principal and administration, your only hope for peace is to have the kid take a swing at you so you can call security to remove the kid. That will at least postpone the inevitable parent complaints and threats of lawsuits and the coercement of administration for you to drop the assault charges, long enough for you to actually get some teaching done so the students who want to learn can learn. And all this is your day between the mountain of paper work you have to do by the end of the day.

And that is your day without any "thanks" from anyone. Even the good students.

How about teachers smoking up a storm all over the school grounds, while lecturing kids NOT to smoke...

Where have you been for the past 10 years? Smoking is prohibited in schools. The only people who smoke in school are the students.

How about teachers eating crap, being overweight, and lecturing kids to do the opposite.

I've never ran into any. It's usually the slim atheletic coaches and health teacher who lecture the students on eating habits.

Let me guess: You're a teacher, right? And you voted for Obama.

Yes and no.

Isn't HE doing a swell job of destroying America.

No worse than the one before him.

 

[SezMe]

Oh, boy. Some claims we can test and look at how meaningful they are.

1. We have TRIED increasing the funding in CURRENT DOLLARS for decades.

Source?

Their administrative staffs are bloated.

Source?

And they pay them too much.

Source? Define "too".

At my district, teachers top out at over $95,000 for 9 months work.

Source? for both the salary and 9 months. How many teachers make that rate? What percent is that?

What is the median salary? Starting salary? Why is max rate a better measure than statistics such as these?

Sickening, particularly when teachers graduate in the bottom third of their college classes, on average.

Source?

3. People don't advocate more money so much as teachers' unions do.
Now these unions have brainwashed parents and kids into standing on the corners for them, demanding higher funding and of course higher taxes to pay for it.

I'd ask for a source but "brainwashing" seems a bit nebulous to verify.

Good for you, JQ, for making clear, testable claims that we can use to assure ourselves that you are being factual.

 

[uruk]

~snip~
I went to public high school in a Boston suburb. My parents (who are very well off financially) looked into sending me to private school because we were Catholic and they liked the idea of me getting a Catholic education. Every private Catholic high school in the area was rated far lower than my public high school (which isn't to say they were bad, not just as good as ours). In fact, the only private school (not even Catholic) they could find that outranked my high school was a boarding school, and they didn't want to send me to boarding school. Thus, I stayed at public school, where I received an excellent education.

~snip~

Same with the Montessori schools in our area. My older brother's daughter goes to a Montressori school and she performs worse than my younger brother's daughter who is in public school and three grades lower than my older brother's daughter.

 

[excaza]

Every private Catholic high school in the area was rated far lower than my public high school (which isn't to say they were bad, not just as good as ours). In fact, the only private school (not even Catholic) they could find that outranked my high school was a boarding school, and they didn't want to send me to boarding school. Thus, I stayed at public school, where I received an excellent education.

Saint John's for the win! Although being a girl there might not work so well

 

[Doubt]

Try a master's degree, and a "super max" designation.

You people really have to get together so you don't waste so much time on idle speculation.

I am still waiting for a source about the $95,000 salaries. Surly you have a source for this.

 

[excaza]

I am still waiting for a source about the $95,000 salaries. Surly you have a source for this.

As others have pointed out, it's not a surprising figure. It's almost certainly the result of both an advanced degree and a few decades of teaching experience. Regardless, it's far, far from the mean and to use it as a statistic is just dishonest.

 

[GreyArea]

Same with the Montessori schools in our area. My older brother's daughter goes to a Montressori school and she performs worse than my younger brother's daughter who is in public school and three grades lower than my older brother's daughter.

Uruk, to what do you attribute the difference? Do your brothers have different home environments as far as learning is concerned? Or is it something about Montessori schools?

 

[cwalner]

My sister-in-law who works serving lunches at a local school, got an email today saying the Orange County Register is doing a story on school employee salaries and under the FOIA, they are handing over all salary information from the district. Not by name, just position, years worked and salary. I expect the right-leaning paper is doing an "expose" on overpaid school employees.

I grew up there, and I thought the public education was quite good. Similar to what SC said, OC is fairly affluent, so they get plenty of extra funding via booster clubs, PTA's, etc. Also considering the cost of living in OC, I would be surprised if they were not in the high end of salaries as well.

I also wonder why some people think that $60k-$100k is too much for somebody responsible for teaching our children? This is a profession that requires a bachelor's degree and additional education (and those level salaries typically require master's or higher). I can't think of any other profession that pays that little for that level of educational requirement.

 

[Doubt]

As others have pointed out, it's not a surprising figure. It's almost certainly the result of both an advanced degree and a few decades of teaching experience. Regardless, it's far, far from the mean and to use it as a statistic is just dishonest.

I still want the answer. I want to see what the average is for that district to see how badly distorted it really is. There is also the possibility that the numbers were pulled out of an orifice that does not see much daylight.